EVE General Discussion

Level 4 frigate skills to train cruisers. New players who are running missions will be ready to start level 2 missions on about their second or third day of playing. It takes roughly 40 hours of training to fly a cruiser. 40 hours is a hell of a long time for a 2-3 day old player to have to wait to continue playing the game, especially when they still need to train up basic tanking, navigation and electronics skills.

Armour tanking is completely unsatisfactory for new players. 12 days of training just to use tech 2 hardeners with very few rewards in the meantime (I think you get a minor boost to armour HP and nothing else). Armour tanking as a whole offers very few rewards compared with shield tanking.

Tech 2 shield hardeners can be trained in 4 days. After 12 days of training shield tanking skills, you will have collected a whole plethora of rewarding boosts to active and passive tanking. Every single day a player will see their abilities grow while training shields. Armour tank training is miserable in comparison and not encouraging for new players.

There are some very good training corps in high-sec who recruit new players and teach them a lot about the game. Perhaps new players should be placed into these corps instead of NPC corps from the moment they start playing.

Well player run organizations can't have that much power, but essentially yes. The idea is:

1. Remove the avalanche that CCP dumps on new players heads
2. Provide enough SP and as little skill micro managing and training overhead as possible to facilitate fun pve and pvp play from second 1 day 1.
3. Facilitate the formation of social bonds and ties and ensure a smooth transition from overwhelmed but stimulated in to sure and certain active subscrption.

Less pertinent from my pov, but clearly from ccp's, get them to start a second account ASAP.

I've read most of your posts and your argument is remarkably similar to the old tirade against learning skills several years ago. Removing learning skills was supposed to be the magic wand that allowed new players to begin playing the 'real' game sooner. Always when it comes to new player rentention the old trope of, "it takes too long to get to do the fun stuff" is bandied about and skill training is always made the culprit. Removing learning skills didn't change anything and reducing skill training time even further than they already have will not change anything either.
Some players,myself included, enjoy the slow progression the skill system provides. What is the real problem for the instant gratification crowd, that every game maker wants so badly to retain, is the lack of a sense of advancement primarily in PvE. This has nothing to do with skill points and everything to do with the fact that Eve has never really had PvE. Mining, manufacturing et all. is really crafting in any other mmo and Eve does it the best.
A progressive PvE background (which does not mean less skill training time) akin to what original mmo's had is what will retain new players. Add the sandbox element to that and you've got a combo that is simply not available from any other mmo out there.

Can we have new players (new account) first character first lets say 3 million skill points grow with twice as fast basic rate, ie when added implants even quicker? That would mean that new players would learn most important basic skills in some reasonable time.

So you think learning skills should be put back? Or that it was a bad idea to remove them? That they added anything to the depth of the game?

I'm finally getting into EVE, but there was a rough patch there when i was like "WTF, I want to fly a spaceship, not sit and wait for a week for no good reason." The skill queue isn't "hard," it's arbitrary, and I'm pretty sure (thinking back) that if I'd have had to spend a chunk of time training the skills that HELP ME TRAIN I would have chuckled and uninstalled.

And don't get me wrong, I like the training queue, and I'm sure most people do. It plays towards the OCD/Completionist/Long Range vs. Short Range/Tradeoff mindset that many MMO players have. I'm 3 mo. into my int/mem remap, and have to convince myself on nearly a daily basis to keep filling out support skills for shield/armor tanking, EWAR and scanning before remapping for a pure weapon/ship type skill plan. I like deciding if I really need T2 armor mods now, or if I should say screw it and start training battleships.

There is nothing wrong with SP at the moment, as T1 frigates and cruisers are becoming more and more effective with the balancing patches. It takes very little time to train into these ships, and ships like the new T1 logistics cruisers are effective in any gang.

A person who enjoys industrial processes and mining loves this game, and ships such as the new mining frigate helps that type person succeed in highsec. There is a lot of isk to be made in the market as well, no matter how much capital you have.

But lets face it, shooting NPCs (highsec's premier activity), or mining, is not very exciting for most people and causes them to quit the game when they realize that one of their only options is an endless grind to get more money/more sp/next month's plex. Most new players want something entertaining to do after they have achieved their isk goals, or most importantly, a way to earn isk while having fun.

Faction Warfare is a good example of doing things right to get people to do something exciting (fun and more fair fights) while still being able to earn enough isk to continue to do things. You can also participate in FW no matter what ship type you fly, making t1 frigates and destroyers effective in gangs, provided you have enough of them. It is important to continue to maintain faction warfare, and to ensure that it does not turn into an "abandoned" feature like Incursions as it is an important stepping stone in the grand scheme of things.

Unfortunately, it is rather difficult to move beyond faction warfare (to 0.0, sov or no-sov) as a distinct entity with lower-sp/skilled characters, without a sugar daddy to give them isk/experience/leadership. It's difficult to hold moons, one of the major isk generators for low/null alliances, and players like staking out their own claims instead of joining a large coalition for sov benefits. The sov that is uncontested (or rarely contested) by other blocs is most likely not worth living in at all because it is not worth the isk/time effort.

Pirates who live in null/low who roam around often depend on less experienced players to provide them with content (fights) as well. Players of all skill levels and all ship classes can participate in these roams, and can get decent money if you kill the right targets. However, as space becomes emptier (because people quit the game, or don't bother coming out), it becomes difficult to maintain this lifestyle, unless you have a large isk pool to draw from or static income sources like renters or moons.

I think the next step in addressing new players concerns is to give them an additional plank on the ladder between faction warfare and deep null power blocs, by making pirate 0.0 and "shallow" nullsec more sustainable, providing the new player with a goal to achieve, and the means to achieve it.

As we see different types of playstyles become more sustainable for players of all skill point levels, new players will sign up, veteran players will resubscribe, and the game will be in a much better position.

Couldn't agree more. When I first began EVE, a GM invited to me a private conversation and then introduced me to EVE and answered the questions I had. This experience was unprecedented for me in any MMO - its one of the main reasons why I stuck with EVE. There's absolutely no reason why CCP couldn't launch an ISD-like team responsible for running dynamic content - running classes, seminars (this is done already on a smaller scale), mini-incursions in newbie systems - the possibilities are literally endless.

I'm afraid the only way to really add and keep new players is an overhaul of the skill system.

It is simply far too soul-crushing to open up a skill plan for a ship you want, and seeing numbers like 120 days, 180 days, 210 days. You have to realize most MMO players today will give the game a month. If you don't hook them, they're gone. And you can't hook them with a handful of weak ships.

That's really how EVE majorly differs from every other MMO today. In any other MMO, you can "max out" your character usually in under 3 months. That is, your character will be as strong as it is possible to get. Maybe not best geared, but close enough to let player skill do the rest. In EVE, the first 3 months you're basically a kitten. Your character doesn't have the skills, and player skill is largely irrelevant. Heck, even at 6 month mark you barely get to the point where you can start throwing your weight around in any serious way.

Until this changes, I don't see new player retention increasing. No matter how great the tutorial is, or how easy it is to find a corp. It is not a good game mechanic. Though of course old hands will fight tooth and nail to keep the advantage, no matter what it costs the game.

EDIT: To the "it's not how much SP you have, it's what you do with it" folks, there's a limit to what you can do with it. And it is very easily mathematically determined. Create a new character, and use EFT and see how much DPS, under ideal conditions, he is capable of, what his EHP is, etc. Can that new character compare with someone who played for 3 years? Nope. And this is no different from any other MMO, a level 1 will not take down a level 60. Closest I've seen was level 20s taking out level 50s in Pirates of the Burning Sea. BUT, in those other MMOs, in 1-3 months, depending on your playing habits, you would have a max level character capable of everything a 3 year old character is capable of. Not so in EVE. At 3 months you're barely combat effective in a handful of ships. And no matter who you play with or how good your intentions are. He shows in a frig, you show in a frig. He reships to cruiser, you reship to cruiser. He reships to battleship, and you choke because you don't have the SP for it. The end. He wins. Not because he's a better player, but because he's been pay...err...playing longer than you.

This is pretty much what CAS already does for newbies in eve. But that only covers 1/4 of the new players in eve. The ones that pick gallente as their race. If you choose one of the other races you start in a cold unforgiving eve.