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Freighter issues
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Aiden Channing
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-10-30 01:46:39 UTC
Does anyone out there wish we could rebalance the freighters? When they were introduced, I don't think anyone had disposable T3 BCs in mind that can pump out a crap ton of dps. It is now easy to kill a capital ship - which was supposedly designed to transport cargo safely - before it can even align for warp. As a result, we use them primarily to transport less than 1B ISK of cargo and hope we don't get killed.

Don't get me wrong - I wholeheartedly support the right to gank a freighter in any region of space. But they have not evolved at all whereas dps has increased quite a lot.

If I'm missing something obvious, please feel free to say something. Otherwise, a few low slots would do wonders.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#2 - 2012-10-30 02:07:20 UTC
Red Frog Freight. Out source the risk for a small cost.
Aiden Channing
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-10-30 02:14:21 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Red Frog Freight. Out source the risk for a small cost.


That ignores the underlying structural issue which was my point.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#4 - 2012-10-30 02:17:24 UTC
Most go with Orca or blockade runners for higher than 1bil isk movement. I do agree with you however.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#5 - 2012-10-30 02:25:11 UTC
Have an alt with a web and remote reppers? 2 would be better due to aggression mechanics.
Aiden Channing
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-10-30 02:31:44 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Have an alt with a web and remote reppers? 2 would be better due to aggression mechanics.

I came from WoW about two years ago and I suffered from altaholism then. Won't do that again.

Still, the basic idea is that a capital ship made to transport good "reasonably" safely should not be so easy to gank. An alt does not address the root of that issue. DPS has gone up quickly and these particular capital ships (the Obelisk even claims to be "resilient") seem to no longer be suited to their original purpose as a result.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#7 - 2012-10-30 02:52:36 UTC
Keep in mind, Freighters are not THAT easy to kill off. Goons are doing it here and there, but it takes more than a few ships to pull it off, and even then they arent ganking every ship that comes through. If you double ship it, they can't scan it and don't know the value.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-10-30 02:58:48 UTC
attack of the freighter threads of late....

fly a safer course. Ima bet you are using automap from point A to point B. Guess what? Gankers do the same thing to pick good gates to camp.

Take a few extra jumps to not mainline it on the route, avoid that empire system that is glowing brighter than a 0.0/low sec system on the map set to show kills (jita excluded kind of, thats a decent chunk of 4-4 nutswinging war dec'ers killing off tards going gee I am privateer dec'd so lets go to jita ) .
Aiden Channing
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-10-30 03:04:38 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Keep in mind, Freighters are not THAT easy to kill off. Goons are doing it here and there, but it takes more than a few ships to pull it off, and even then they arent ganking every ship that comes through. If you double ship it, they can't scan it and don't know the value.

Zan Shiro wrote:
attack of the freighter threads of late....

fly a safer course. Ima bet you are using automap from point A to point B. Guess what? Gankers do the same thing to pick good gates to camp.

Take a few extra jumps to not mainline it on the route, avoid that empire system that is glowing brighter than a 0.0/low sec system on the map set to show kills (jita excluded kind of, thats a decent chunk of 4-4 nutswinging war dec'ers killing off tards going gee I am privateer dec'd so lets go to jita ) .

Excellent avoidance ideas but those don't address underlying structural issue that freighters simply have not evolved with dps and are unfit for the formerly intended purpose.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#10 - 2012-10-30 03:13:50 UTC
Understood. And there are 2 systems near Jita that are bottle necks and you often can not avoid as well. I do agree that Freighters are a bit on the soft side, but I really don't see any immediate changes incoming anytime soon unfortunately.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#11 - 2012-10-30 03:40:45 UTC
Your complaint is based upon the odd notion that the ship was designed to 'safely' do anything.

Not sure I'd agree with that.
Aiden Channing
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-10-30 04:13:25 UTC
L'ouris wrote:
Your complaint is based upon the odd notion that the ship was designed to 'safely' do anything.

Not sure I'd agree with that.

Before I wrote "safely" I also wrote "relatively." Smile I wholeheartedly support ganking and suicide runs. It's space and there should always be elements of risk but it needs to be more double-sided.

Thanks to explosions in dps (no pun intended) and disposable ships, the amount of effort it takes to down a freighter now is far less than when they were designed. My point is that a capital ship ought to have at least some measure of protection available to it given the original intended purpose.

Somehow a 1B+ ISK ship doesn't have even a single low slot? Compared to how ship capabilities have changed in favor of dps over time, this seems like an oversight.
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#13 - 2012-10-30 04:22:03 UTC
It's a ship that does its thing well enough. Haul lots and lots of stuff.

IMO
If it takes coordination and planning to kill one, it should take a like amount of effort to survive in one.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-10-30 04:46:22 UTC
Aiden Channing wrote:

Excellent avoidance ideas but those don't address underlying structural issue that freighters simply have not evolved with dps and are unfit for the formerly intended purpose.


There is no change required. Use the freighter for what it was designed at it will do it nicely. Massive low value cargo it the freighter job. There are other ship to use if your cargo does not fit in this category.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-10-30 10:35:32 UTC
Aiden Channing wrote:
It is now easy to kill a capital ship - which was supposedly designed to transport cargo safely - before it can even align for warp. As a result, we use them primarily to transport less than 1B ISK of cargo and hope we don't get killed.

TBH I though that all it was suppoed to do is haul a metric ton of goods, period.

Before I even started to play EVE, I imagined hauling op as something done exclusively with escort fleet. Then I realized that with EVE's hisec mech you can't really interefere in other ways than applying boosts and logi.

I guess, it will change with CW2.0. I'd say that one should hold on with freighter buffs for that reason.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Aziesta
Binal Extensions
Xagenic Freymvork
#16 - 2012-10-30 12:49:40 UTC
Aiden Channing wrote:
Somehow a 1B+ ISK ship doesn't have even a single low slot?

I realize you're arguing for more HP, not necessarily lowslots. However, adding lowslots would mean you could fit expanded cargoholds, which would boost cargo space to over 1 million m3, which would allow you to move repackaged capitals, which would open a whole mess of issues. While these could be fixed with hard-coded limitations, it would be far more intensive than simply adding a lowslot to a single ship.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-10-30 19:08:57 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Aiden Channing wrote:
It is now easy to kill a capital ship - which was supposedly designed to transport cargo safely - before it can even align for warp. As a result, we use them primarily to transport less than 1B ISK of cargo and hope we don't get killed.

TBH I though that all it was suppoed to do is haul a metric ton of goods, period.

Before I even started to play EVE, I imagined hauling op as something done exclusively with escort fleet. Then I realized that with EVE's hisec mech you can't really interefere in other ways than applying boosts and logi.

I guess, it will change with CW2.0. I'd say that one should hold on with freighter buffs for that reason.


The problem is with the users not the ship itself. Noone would haul a cargo ship full of gold bar just off the coast of somalia. Thats asking for pirates to try to seize the ship. Transporting a metric ass ton of super valuable across the popular ganking system is the same thing. People need to put 2 cells worth of thinking into what they are doing. As long as people do stupid ****, people will find way to profit off of them.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-10-30 19:12:07 UTC
Aziesta wrote:
Aiden Channing wrote:
Somehow a 1B+ ISK ship doesn't have even a single low slot?

I realize you're arguing for more HP, not necessarily lowslots. However, adding lowslots would mean you could fit expanded cargoholds, which would boost cargo space to over 1 million m3, which would allow you to move repackaged capitals, which would open a whole mess of issues. While these could be fixed with hard-coded limitations, it would be far more intensive than simply adding a lowslot to a single ship.


Reduce the base hold volume so that a freighter with a t2 cargo expander has exactly the same hold as currently. People would be given the option to sacrifice some cargo space for additionnal tank. Let me read in the future for a second.

Nah they would just cry saying thier ship got nerfed.

Leave freighter as is.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#19 - 2012-10-30 19:25:57 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Keep in mind, Freighters are not THAT easy to kill off. Goons are doing it here and there, but it takes more than a few ships to pull it off, and even then they arent ganking every ship that comes through. If you double ship it, they can't scan it and don't know the value.

No offense but bad idea.

A double wrapped package I believe as well as any cargo containers are a guaranteed drop. Stuff sitting in normal cargo only has a chance of dropping.

When they scan a ship and see a double wrapped package or cargo containers they know what ever is hiding inside will drop. They assume it is double wrapped because it is valuable. Who would bother double wrapping something not worth hiding? This will encourage an attack rather than deter it.

To scam them double wrap a bunch of empty freight containers and insure your ship. They will kill you and make no isk as the containers are empty. You will have minimal loss as you were insured and had minimal value in your cargo hold. ( Just one way to gank the gankers, at a cost of course.)

If you have very expensive cargo to haul use a blockade runner or ORCA. Freighters are meant for high volume low value cargo, not hauling many billions worth of stuff around.

Red frog won't accept a cargo with well over 1 billion collateral for the same reasons. unless the payout is worth the risk. In which case your profits are all going to them.
Reticle
Sight Picture
#20 - 2012-10-30 19:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Reticle
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
A double wrapped package I believe as well as any cargo containers are a guaranteed drop. Stuff sitting in normal cargo only has a chance of dropping.

I'd like to see proof of this. All drops from a ship's hold have the same chances and it's done by stack (or container). If it were true that they always dropped, it would be true that all freight containers would drop, because that's what plastic wrap is, a freight container (labeled clearly in the item type field). I can't say with certainty that it's not true, but I seem to recall reading freighter gank threads in which the aggressors lament the loss of the double wrapped cargo. Plus I've seen others lost. I have never before heard this.
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