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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Media freak
His Majesty's Privateers
#5481 - 2012-10-27 17:15:55 UTC
Faora Zod wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
Has any one brought up the reload time? Missile Launchers take 10 seconds, while guns take 5 not to mention the instant swap for lens.


Also incorrect.

Lasers swap instantly, projectiles take 10sec only hybribs swap in 5 seconds.



my point is that if it is going to be "balanced" than reload time needs to be considered to, they should all have the same delay time, AND hold the same amount of rounds. Either that or each one of the weapon systems needs to have an advantage to it. Be it range, dps, instantly swapping damage type, or a variety of damage types. It isn't balanced unless everything is

Yeah, make everything the same is much better...

Or realize that 10s reload go with selectable damage, and ammo clip size go with alpha.


Missiles and Projectiles have selectable damage like hybrids and lasers? I must have missed the other varieties when i was looking at the 4 i have to pick from.

Also for the balancing purpose you might as well add cap usage to the list, i can't believe that has been left out!


Missiles and Projectiles have selectable damage
hybrids and lasers do not
hybrids use some cap to shoot
lasers use cap to shoot
Missiles and Projectiles do not use cap
Missiles and Projectiles take 10s to reload
hybrids take 5 s to reload
lasers are instant
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5482 - 2012-10-27 17:17:55 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:


They assume that enough people wont quit EVE because they think you have no other options and you'll fuss a bit but in the end you'll stay and keep feeding them cash.


this is exactly what u will do.

Cazador 64 wrote:

The DEV posted asking us to try the changes we did they sucked we spoke they didn't reply. Why? For the reason stated Above they will not address concerns they will ignore it and gamble that you stay


hes addressed the arguments in his updated thread. since then ppl have been making the same points and are still asking for their SP's back.

u'd accomplish more by just never flying caldari again. if devs see no one flying caldari ships or missiles then they'll have another look.

problem is, lots of ppl do fly caldari ships and lots of ppl use missiles. u'll never get ppl to stop because they're bloody good, even after this nerf.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5483 - 2012-10-27 18:21:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Can CCP reimburse skillpoints to people who have trained missiles?
In a MMO like Eve balance does change from time to time and skills will not be reimbursed unless their use is being removed from the game. If you believe that these changes make missiles useless then let us know why in as much detail as possible and if we agree the solution won't be to reimburse skills, it will be to adjust the proposal so that missiles are no longer made useless. Heavy missiles were the first medium weapon system I ever trained when I started playing Eve, and I have made excellent use of them through the years so I understand how good it feels to have skills invested in an extremely powerful weapon system. Most people who have been playing the game for a while can name a few times it has felt like their playstyle has been nerfed, because by definition the overpowered areas of the game tend to attract a lot of people. The four most heavily used medium weapons in the game are all Heavy Missile launcher variants, as well as seven of the top eleven. Whenever we need to change something this powerful it will always be painful because so many players will have done the smart thing and flocked to the best game mechanic. If it feels like CCP nerfs you a lot that's just a sign that you're doing it right and getting good at staying on top of the best trends so pat yourself on the back.


So whats up with the silent nerf to Cruise missile snipers forcing us into T1 or Faction to hit the range we once had in essence lowers the dps and there for is a nerf by relation.
Also you speak of nerfing HML by there over use in PVP, so why are we seeing a HML nerf and not a projectile nerf?? We have provided numbers that projectiles dominate everything when you total everything out and all other systems missiles included only get a fraction of the use on the grand scheme of things.

Everyone knows DEVs play EVE so you can't claim ignorance you guys know full well how imbalanced projectiles and the Winmatar have been for years.
And yet we face a Caldari missile nerf? Forgive some of us for not trusting what you say here.


CCP Fozzie wrote:

Are you even open to changing any of this or are you just planning to ignore everyone?
We are a long way from release and none of these proposals are set in stone. What I will say is that we are set in the belief that heavy missiles do need changes to bring them closer in power to other long range weapons. The details of how that happens is definitely up for debate.


Many pages of feedback have been given since test went live. You are not going to get any new feedback by waiting it's going to be the same page after page.
When can we expect some feedback to the concerms stated?
Or are you just biding time until it's to late to make any adjustments and this all goes live and we are basically SOL.

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5484 - 2012-10-27 18:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
BS and cruise missiles will be rebalanced later, by summer.

Patience is a vertu you should have learned in EVE.

And if you are too stubborn to adapt during this time, we cannot do anything for you.

They have a plan...

PS : you obvioulsy didn't seen the frigate/crusier rebalance : no more winmatars.
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5485 - 2012-10-27 18:55:04 UTC
What about the nerf to the CNR Sniper
Currently on test T2 missiles will only hit out to 110.
If you are sniping incursions you need to be well over 50.

So we change to faction ammo and by forcing us into faction ammo it brings on a pretty heavy DPS nerf.
I think all cruise missiles need work on damage buffs but leave the range alone.
You have provided no data showing that a high dps T2 cruise at a unnerfed range implements any imbalance for why the nerf??

When we look at the other Incursion snipers Mach/NM the CNR is out classed as it is and this nerf will make it even worse.
I would even suggest an other 5% buff to damage ontop of current changes and leave range alone.
Unless you intend to release some cruise missile pirate ship to replace the missile sniper.

I mean you are already nerfing the HML out of use we need something to fall back on don't take the long range cruise our of it also. I would also like to know why the HML is getting the look when over all the projectiles far over shadows missiles lasers and hybrids??

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 adding everything up gives a very clear example of how the projectile is the most favored over all.
The excuse given for this nerf was that the HML was favored over other weapons systems you left out that it was on an individual level. How is this HML nerf going to bring everything into harmony and unison?
Won't this just bring more favoritism to the projectiles?
The HML enjoyed a slight advantage 10% dmg by your estimates and a decent range.

Now that the drake and tengu will no longer enjoy the benefits of being marginally "better"
Pilots will have no reason to continue the use of them and they will look to the projectiles to compensate.
Making the projectiles even more favored and over used.

Lili Lu
#5486 - 2012-10-27 19:10:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Cazador 64 wrote:
Drake 30km range Tengu 46km range for T2 heavy missiles ?
CCP Fozzie, I'd like to know what you're on cause it apparently it is a seriously heavy trip.
This will effectively remove missile ships out of the game except perhaps gate camping HAM Drakes.
Seriously, get back to the drawing board because the shitstorm this will raise will be of epic proportions.

The DEVs are very well aware of how bad they are screwing caldari missile users. They play this game for fun too.
There is no way they don't know, its just they don't care, they are taking care of their projectile friends and that's all that matters.

They assume that enough people wont quit EVE because they think you have no other options and you'll fuss a bit but in the end you'll stay and keep feeding them cash.
The only way they might care is if us caldari missile pilots walk away from eve and cancel our subs until we see s Fix.

The DEV posted asking us to try the changes we did they sucked we spoke they didn't reply. Why? For the reason stated Above they will not address concerns they will ignore it and gamble that you stay


FFS. Have you any sense of turret use and balance? There you are complaining about high damage tech II ammo on a long range weapon. Open up eft, because I'm sure you've got no experience with tech II turrets, put the high damage tech II ammo in a turret, enjoy the much shorter optimal and wonderful falloff damage reduction. Harbinger w Gleam in Heavy Beam IIs, 10k optimal and 16k falloff with two TCs ! Cane w Quake in 720mm IIs, 8k optimal and 27k falloff ! You've got nothing to complain about in comparison.

Oh boo hoo my high damage tech II ammo can't reach almost the same distance as my normal long range ammo any longer what will I ever do this is so unfair to make it more even with turret ammo but still better range. It's so unfair that I can't keep my op damage at 70km, and my tech I ammo will still be outdamaging turret tech II ammo at that range Cry

Please do cancel your sub. The game will be better off without your kind. Frankly you got spoiled over the years with op long range weapon system. New players won't be as childish as you. o/

edit - and there you go lumping all projectile weapons together, medium and large, long and short range. Learn to differentiate or GTFO
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5487 - 2012-10-27 19:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cazador 64
Lili Lu wrote:

FFS. Have you any sense of turret use and balance? There you are complaining about high damage tech II ammo on a long range weapon. Open up eft, because I'm sure you've got no experience with tech II turrets, put the high damage tech II ammo in a turret, enjoy the much shorter optimal and wonderful falloff damage reduction. Harbinger w Gleam in Heavy Beam IIs, 9k optimal and 15k falloff with two TCs ! Cane w Quake in 720mm IIs, 6k optimal and 22k falloff ! You've got nothing to complain about in comparison.

Oh boo hoo my high damage tech II ammo can't reach almost the same distance as my normal long range ammo any longer what will I ever do this is so unfair to make it more even with turret ammo but still better range. It's so unfair that I can't keep my op damage at 70km, and my tech I ammo will still be outdamaging turret tech II ammo at that range Cry

Please do cancel your sub. The game will be better off without your kind. Frankly you got spoiled over the years with op long range weapon system. New players won't be as childish as you. o/

edit - and there you go lumping all projectile weapons together, medium and large, long and short range. Learn to differentiate or GTFO


You should trained missiles then if your turrets are that under powered.
If Projectiles are so bad off why are they so over used?
Or are you that much of an ignoramus to see this?

better off without my kind? why because I pointed out how over used projectiles are? Stop raging all over my post if you don't like what I have to say you are more then welcome to not read them, because frankly I am sick of reading your garbage and filth that you post on here. How about you GTFO out your projectiles are over used and over powered and I am going to laugh in your face when they get nerfed next.

And this will be the last response i read form you anyhow shut you out like the rest of the idiots.
Edit: Looking into it I see you favor Projectiles your self and winmartar ships often LOL.
Just get out please
Lili Lu
#5488 - 2012-10-27 19:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Cazador 64 wrote:
You should trained missiles then if your turrets are that under powered.
If Projectiles are so bad off why are they so over used?
Or are you that much of an ignoramus to see this?

better off without my kind? why because I pointed out how over used projectiles are? Stop raging all over my post if you don't like what I have to say you are more then welcome to not read them, because frankly I am sick of reading your garbage and filth that you post on here. How about you GTFO out your projectiles are over used and over powered and I am going to laugh in your face when they get nerfed next.

And this will be the last response i read form you anyhow shut you out like the rest of the idiots.


I don't give a **** whether you choose to block your ability to read my posts or not. But I'll keep reading yours and exposing your stupidity.Lol

As for sp I've got 22 missile skills with 11.6 mil sp. I've got level 4 specs in every subcap missile system. And I've used those weapons. I've also got 28 gunnery skills with 14.2 mil sp there. I've used projectile and laser turrets of both long and short varieties at all subcap sizes. So I can safely say I have a better perspective on all this than you do.Blink

edit - and because i have more than one turret system trained that perspective allows me to say yes, projectile use is over represented in the game. Unlike you though, that perspective also allows me to notice things other than the weapons systems themselves that can account for that use. TE overdone falloff buff, so many factors in the game atm favoring kiting, speed, and mobility which is the Minmatar forte, and not just the obvious advantages like capless and damage selection.

So, sorry to diappoint you. Unlike you I'm not wedded to some rl psychiatric self identification with a mythical race and their spaceships. I will be quite understanding if some changes are made to promote up other guns and trim back projectiles. And I will certainly be giving much better responses in whatever threads occur on that in the future than the petulant whine posts you are making here itt. o/
Sigras
Conglomo
#5489 - 2012-10-27 20:34:16 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
You should trained missiles then if your turrets are that under powered.
If Projectiles are so bad off why are they so over used?
Or are you that much of an ignoramus to see this?

better off without my kind? why because I pointed out how over used projectiles are? Stop raging all over my post if you don't like what I have to say you are more then welcome to not read them, because frankly I am sick of reading your garbage and filth that you post on here. How about you GTFO out your projectiles are over used and over powered and I am going to laugh in your face when they get nerfed next.

And this will be the last response i read form you anyhow shut you out like the rest of the idiots.
Edit: Looking into it I see you favor Projectiles your self and winmartar ships often LOL.
Just get out please

At this point im not sure if youre trolling or just an idiot . . .

Long range guns (beams, artillery, railguns) use two different types of ammo:
Short range high damage (Gleam, Quake, Javelin)
Long range low damage (Aurora, Tremor, Spike)

the other types of ammo are basically useless in a long range weapon

Now your missile launchers have the same options
Short range high damage (Fury)
Long range low damage (faction missiles)

but wait, theres more! you actually get a third type of missile that is useful
Short range small target (Precision)

if youre gonna complain about the range of fury missiles, you have to compare it to the comparable alternative (gleam quake javelin)

Even Noemi Nagano understands this, you just seem to be a bit slow on the uptake
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5490 - 2012-10-27 21:09:46 UTC
Sigras wrote:

Even Noemi Nagano understands this, you just seem to be a bit slow on the uptake

That's not enough pve, you know, where every missile ship should be balanced around the machariel...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5491 - 2012-10-27 23:10:33 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:


You should trained missiles then if your turrets are that under powered.
If Projectiles are so bad off why are they so over used?
Or are you that much of an ignoramus to see this?

better off without my kind? why because I pointed out how over used projectiles are? Stop raging all over my post if you don't like what I have to say you are more then welcome to not read them, because frankly I am sick of reading your garbage and filth that you post on here. How about you GTFO out your projectiles are over used and over powered and I am going to laugh in your face when they get nerfed next.

And this will be the last response i read form you anyhow shut you out like the rest of the idiots.
Edit: Looking into it I see you favor Projectiles your self and winmartar ships often LOL.
Just get out please



what a ridiculous post. u think if projectiles get nerfed we'll post like u!?! or will we look at our options and adapt accordingly?

the canes getting heavily nerfed and there is nothing even close to the magnitude of stupidity in ur posts from cane pilots.

for the umpteenth time. CCP make this game as they see fit. if its not to ur liking then clearly its not for u and u shouldnt spend anymore time, effort or money on it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5492 - 2012-10-27 23:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kai'rae Saarkus
Cazador 64 wrote:
What about the nerf to the CNR Sniper
Currently on test T2 missiles will only hit out to 110.
If you are sniping incursions you need to be well over 50.


Srsly, Wtf? Last I checked 110 >>> 50 . Unless that's a typo and you meant 150, in which case make coherent arguments by not making basic errors on key points.

Quote:

So we change to faction ammo and by forcing us into faction ammo it brings on a pretty heavy DPS nerf.
I think all cruise missiles need work on damage buffs but leave the range alone.
You have provided no data showing that a high dps T2 cruise at a unnerfed range implements any imbalance for why the nerf??


I've seen fairly credible arguments in this thread that Precision Cruise missiles will outperform Heavy Missiles in a lot of cases. Which hasn't been the case until now.

Fury Cruise are getting a Damage Buff.

So, yeah. T2 Cruise are getting a range nerf. Which means your single use-case is getting worse (T2 Cruise Sniper), but overall T2 missiles are getting better. This is a good thing (I mean lol T2 Precision? speed nerf on kiting ships).

Quote:

When we look at the other Incursion snipers Mach/NM the CNR is out classed as it is and this nerf will make it even worse.
I would even suggest an other 5% buff to damage ontop of current changes and leave range alone.
Unless you intend to release some cruise missile pirate ship to replace the missile sniper.


Mach and NM also both cost a lot more than the CNR. But I'll accept the argument that balancing by price doesn't actually work (Titans, anyone?)

I also accept the argument that Cruise Missiles and Torps will need to be looked at as part of the BS rebalance. But like people waiting for the buff to T2 hulls, Armour Tanking, Damps, TDs, Drones etc etc you'll have to wait, it's coming Soon(tm).

But, eventually everybody in Eve needs to cross train. This Char is primarily specc'd as a (non-ECM) EWAR/Drone/Blaster pilot (look at my KB). At various stages those have been amongst the weekest skillsets in game; they have also been very strong. What ship have I been flying a lot of recently: the Drake. I had to reskill for it, but that's the nature of Eve.

Quote:

I mean you are already nerfing the HML out of use we need something to fall back on don't take the long range cruise our of it also. I would also like to know why the HML is getting the look when over all the projectiles far over shadows missiles lasers and hybrids??


See a point made often above, about less Winmatar. Cane gets a direct Nerf, Stabber is probably the weakest CL, Ruppie is balanced against the other CCs, Cyclone gets nerfed by the ASB nerf, Frigs are shaken up and Dessies will have viable alternatives to the Thrasher.

Quote:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 adding everything up gives a very clear example of how the projectile is the most favored over all.
The excuse given for this nerf was that the HML was favored over other weapons systems you left out that it was on an individual level. How is this HML nerf going to bring everything into harmony and unison?
Won't this just bring more favoritism to the projectiles?
The HML enjoyed a slight advantage 10% dmg by your estimates and a decent range.

Now that the drake and tengu will no longer enjoy the benefits of being marginally "better"
Pilots will have no reason to continue the use of them and they will look to the projectiles to compensate.
Making the projectiles even more favored and over used.


Actually, if anything, this change adds another viable alternative to Projectiles, at close range.
Small/Med Projectiles are mostly used <30Km. At 20-30Km HAMs with Javelin now have a chance of competing with Projectiles. Between 5-10Km (ie within Web range) HAMs stand a good chance of outdamaging Projectiles.
Rockets will also benefit from the changes (although less dramatically, but it will boost the damage of Rage Rockets).

Medium range: a HML Caracal blows any other T1 Cruiser out of the water and, for BCs, Drakes still out perform Arty canes (except when all you want is 'Alpha').

Indeed, Drakes will still be the only hull that can do >1200M/s, <9s align, >40K Ehp, with 3 Mid slots for tackle/EWAR. And still do >350DPS out to 60Km with a Med weapon system. Srlsy, try fitting any other T1 hull to do that.

I'd actually expect to see HMLs replaced by an increased use of Large Turrets. This will reflect the replacement of Drakes in roving gangs by Tier3 BCs (a trend you are already seeing), and the replacement of Drakes in fleets with Rokhs (another trend you are already seeing).
Kenshi Hanshin
WinterFel
Requiem Eternal
#5493 - 2012-10-28 00:43:18 UTC
Having played around on the Duality server, these changes get my approval. Good work!
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#5494 - 2012-10-28 03:21:26 UTC
Gotta love the fanboyz screaming it's their game they'll do what they want JUST LEAVE CCP FOZZIE ALONE ! *tear-streaked-mascara* Lol

I couldn't care less. I'm just warning CCP the tears will require Noah to build them an Ark and I'm no sure that's wise for them to do right now.

Missiles as a medium-long range weapon system have always sucked as a weapon system in PVP due to time-to-target and were barely tolerable in PVE only due to their few advantages of all damage types and long range. With these changes combined with the other upcoming changes there will be NO medium-long range PVP engagements at all with missile ships.
Heavy Missiles and above are also useless against frigates. With the upcoming PVE-blast-drones changes that is yet another reason to ditch all missile ships for turret ships. At least my medium/large guns can blow an incoming frigate away (or from my buddy) if our drones get blown away.

Anyhow, just look at the market. People understand this and are trying to get rid of their missile ships already. I'm not saying a nerf is out of place but this is ridiculous.

Finally, it IS strange that missiles are getting shafted with winmatar being the #1 PVP ship of choice. Priorities ?
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5495 - 2012-10-28 04:48:20 UTC
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Gotta love the fanboyz screaming it's their game they'll do what they want JUST LEAVE CCP FOZZIE ALONE ! *tear-streaked-mascara* Lol

I couldn't care less. I'm just warning CCP the tears will require Noah to build them an Ark and I'm no sure that's wise for them to do right now.

Missiles as a medium-long range weapon system have always sucked as a weapon system in PVP due to time-to-target and were barely tolerable in PVE only due to their few advantages of all damage types and long range. With these changes combined with the other upcoming changes there will be NO medium-long range PVP engagements at all with missile ships.
Heavy Missiles and above are also useless against frigates. With the upcoming PVE-blast-drones changes that is yet another reason to ditch all missile ships for turret ships. At least my medium/large guns can blow an incoming frigate away (or from my buddy) if our drones get blown away.

Anyhow, just look at the market. People understand this and are trying to get rid of their missile ships already. I'm not saying a nerf is out of place but this is ridiculous.

Finally, it IS strange that missiles are getting shafted with winmatar being the #1 PVP ship of choice. Priorities ?



Careful now this thread is crawling with winmatar projectile lovers your just asking to get flamed.
But I have to agree with you it is a BS patch.
Only if the DEV flew Caldari missiles we would enjoy years of prosperity!
Kenshi Hanshin
WinterFel
Requiem Eternal
#5496 - 2012-10-28 05:10:15 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Gotta love the fanboyz screaming it's their game they'll do what they want JUST LEAVE CCP FOZZIE ALONE ! *tear-streaked-mascara* Lol

I couldn't care less. I'm just warning CCP the tears will require Noah to build them an Ark and I'm no sure that's wise for them to do right now.

Missiles as a medium-long range weapon system have always sucked as a weapon system in PVP due to time-to-target and were barely tolerable in PVE only due to their few advantages of all damage types and long range. With these changes combined with the other upcoming changes there will be NO medium-long range PVP engagements at all with missile ships.
Heavy Missiles and above are also useless against frigates. With the upcoming PVE-blast-drones changes that is yet another reason to ditch all missile ships for turret ships. At least my medium/large guns can blow an incoming frigate away (or from my buddy) if our drones get blown away.

Anyhow, just look at the market. People understand this and are trying to get rid of their missile ships already. I'm not saying a nerf is out of place but this is ridiculous.

Finally, it IS strange that missiles are getting shafted with winmatar being the #1 PVP ship of choice. Priorities ?



Careful now this thread is crawling with winmatar projectile lovers your just asking to get flamed.
But I have to agree with you it is a BS patch.
Only if the DEV flew Caldari missiles we would enjoy years of prosperity!

I fly Caldari just like you do Cazador. The difference is that I noticed the max speeds are increased. With good skills, modules and proper rigs you should be able to retain your previous range or at least increase your dps. I was taking out Lvl4 Security Mission Angel Cartel Battleships with rapid light missile launchers on a drake (for the hell of it). I ran my tests on Duality earlier this evening. I admit it takes some inventive thinking but we can still get our performance.

The higher speeds have the nice advantage of removing that annoying missile "slow-cruising" to the target. It also makes the hits I got on frigs and intercepts better than previous. Especially combined with the increased explosion velocity. Overall the raw damage we had was reduced. But we are not being made obsolete. If you are as experienced as I think you are, adapt. It is what everyone else has been forced to do recently.

To be honest, I prefer missiles but I have decent skills in lasers, hybrids and projectiles. So maybe I am a little less panicked and desperate as some of you... I will leave you with this thought: Humans are renowned for their ability to adapt, let's see some of that capability.
Sigras
Conglomo
#5497 - 2012-10-28 06:49:07 UTC
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Gotta love the fanboyz screaming it's their game they'll do what they want JUST LEAVE CCP FOZZIE ALONE ! *tear-streaked-mascara* Lol

I couldn't care less. I'm just warning CCP the tears will require Noah to build them an Ark and I'm no sure that's wise for them to do right now.

I find it interesting that the people who argue and are usually correct argue about the facts, the people who are usually wrong attack the people who are correct.

Not saying thats whats happening here, but im just saying its a psychological trend

Louis deGuerre wrote:
Missiles as a medium-long range weapon system have always sucked as a weapon system in PVP due to time-to-target and were barely tolerable in PVE only due to their few advantages of all damage types and long range.

yeah . . . thats why nobody ever uses missiles as a medium-long range weapon system right? . . . Roll

Louis deGuerre wrote:
Finally, it IS strange that missiles are getting shafted with winmatar being the #1 PVP ship of choice. Priorities ?

projectiles are the #1 weapon of choice at close ranges . . . nobody disputes that, but the hurricane is getting quite a nerf . . .

That being said, missiles are the #1 weapon of choice at all ranges greater than 30 km

I assume that the missile ships are getting the nerf first because its way easier to fix them than it is to fix projectiles vs blasters.
Dato Koppla
Did he say Jump
Dock Workers
#5498 - 2012-10-28 07:06:23 UTC
I'm a little confused, do the people who are vehemently supporting the changes like Lili and gang think that other medium LR turrets are crap? It seems so from the posts I've read though obviously I haven't read all of them.

and if they do, how can you support Fozzie using basically never used broken weapons as the basis to balance HMs as he mentioned in the OP.

Also, relax when you guys reply to this, I don't want a wall of flaming text, just a simple clarification. I agree with these changes as they serve their intended purpose, (bringing HMs down to the level of other medium LR weapons) I just think it's not the way to go about this.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5499 - 2012-10-28 07:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Missiles as a medium-long range weapon system have always sucked as a weapon system in PVP due to time-to-target and were barely tolerable in PVE only due to their few advantages of all damage types and long range. With these changes combined with the other upcoming changes there will be NO medium-long range PVP engagements at all with missile ships.


Caracal. And Tengu can claim back some of the range it loses thanks to it's 10% missile velocity per level bonus.

Louis deGuerre wrote:
Heavy Missiles and above are also useless against frigates. With the upcoming PVE-blast-drones changes that is yet another reason to ditch all missile ships for turret ships. At least my medium/large guns can blow an incoming frigate away (or from my buddy) if our drones get blown away.


Go to C1 site with your Drake and try your drones.
You will learn a lot about how NPCs aggro your drones.
When you have gained enough experience you will not lose your drones anymore.

Oh, and new NPCs for missions are nowhere near sleepers when it comes to drone hate. Do you want to know what they hate even more? Ewar and logis.

If you don't have any other ways to do missions get a friend in a Rattler and few ewar (TPs are fine) modules just to tank and aggro everything. You will focus on destroying stuff.

Dato Koppla wrote:
I'm a little confused, do the people who are vehemently supporting the changes like Lili and gang think that other medium LR turrets are crap? It seems so from the posts I've read though obviously I haven't read all of them.


Ferox with 4 magstabs does 210 dps at 97 km with Spike.
Ferox with 4 magstabs does 181 dps at 75 km with CN Tungsten.
No enough low slots for more damage mods or even a suitcase.
Ferox with 4 magstabs does 368 dps at 13 km with Javelin (still less than what Drake can do at 70 km).

Compare those to 3x BCS Drake at both distances. Btw, it has a suitcase.

And all this is based on paper dps numbers so in game you have to be lucky to actually do that damage.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5500 - 2012-10-28 09:46:33 UTC
well i got a thought if these changes go through lets all change to winmatar ships so they will by the logic of this thread be popular and also op so they get a heavy nerf then we change back to caldari ships when there actualy half decent again