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The number of supercaps is too damn high!
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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#21 - 2012-10-25 23:10:20 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:

I think OP is saying that making it even harder to keep a 60b+ asset "safeish" is like, causing the problem.

Pilots have become timid because logoffski is not able to be done like it used to.


Very true, but I disagree with his approach. If you made supercaps have a persistent existence then black ops fleets would become relevant again in a useful and non overpowered way.

blops pilot perchance?

Eve's Razor: The simplest solution to any given problem is where any given profession is given as the solution to the given problem.



lol no. I am a highsec miner and general carebear and do gooder. I make a strong effort not to go out of my way to ruin peoples day.

That's the same as saying "I am a Liar"

In Eve Zealotology, if you "make a strong effort not to go out of my way to ruin peoples day" then you are not playing Eve so you have no need to "make a strong effort not to go out of my way to ruin peoples day" because you are "not playing Eve".

Go forth and de-multiply soldier.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-10-25 23:16:09 UTC
Simple, make doomsdays disable jump drive of your target for x minutes.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#23 - 2012-10-25 23:19:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Simple, make doomsdays disable jump drive of your target for x minutes.

Even simpler, make DD AoE^10 what it used to be.

Kill EVERYTHING ON GRID- single shot.

I'd buy one.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#24 - 2012-10-25 23:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
CCP made the very stupid mistake of making the Titan a combat ship. This means it scales and so 'more is better'.

Combined with the ease and negligible cost for individuals to own and operate their own personal titan the situation where there are more Titans used in the game then EAF for instance was inevitable.

Titans (and in lesser degree Motherships) should have been mobile stations, with full docking capabilities and perhaps even allowing players to log off at the ship itself. Maybe even some minor station services. It should have been considered a corporate asset like an outpost. Not someone's personal e-peen extension.

Exorbitant operating costs should have kept it out of the hands of individual players and restricted it to alliances, to be used only strategically as a mobile HQ for big operations. And even though, having a mobile frontline station is a powerful force multiplier when invading another null region (with a single Titan allowing reshipping for say, a fleet of 300 players), this doesn't scale particularly well.

So there would likely only have been a few dozen of them in the game (and because of all the stuff stored in them, losing them would have been very painful, both financially and strategically), keeping them rare and 'a big deal'.

But CCP simply doesn't get it. First a anti-support with a 50M ISK shot easily capable eradicating a support fleet worth many times more, thus making it the offensive weapon of choice in null for years. And now it's a dreadnought insta-popper, blapping the ships which are supposed to counter Titans. Not to mention the impunity with which super-caps eradicated battleship combat for years.

And now we're at a point where there are way too many Titans and CCP, as usual, lacks the backbone to make unpopular decision about existing features. They rather spend a ton of resources in trying to balance Titans as combat ship (which simply is not possible due to it's apex nature), instead of re-purposing and re-coding them into alliance-level end-game logistical assets.

In the mean time a lot of feed-back is drowned in the screaming of the rich players and alliance elite who willl do and say anything to just to make sure their (specially bought/trained) personal Titan-alts don't become redundant.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-10-26 03:45:35 UTC
Bold and reckless...

A super cap pilot losing ships (note the plural) = not given access to such ships to use anymore. Why? Because they take a while and cost quite a bit to build. The only way to enable this is mechanics that put the ships at risk so such risks become acceptable to the group backing their use.

As for Tobiaz's statements - change bridges: Reverse the functionality and adjust the use specs to accommodate the change (so they can function in this fashion).

Require the fleet to be at a cyno point awaiting a bridge. The bridging ship establishes the connection to that cyno which appears as a wormhole entrance that they use like a wormhole but the Titan/BO cannot "send" them - the fleet comes in to where the bridging ship is at. A 1-way trip to the target.

For proper use of such bridges - you'd need 2 cyno capable ships along. 1 that the bridging ships uses to get to a system (jumps to) - 1 with the gang/fleet for a bridge to be set to for the gang to use the new "wormhole" to get to the bridging ship.

That would mean a titan would have to *BE THERE* to bring a fleet in, putting it in the combat area before it could launch a bridge to bring a fleet to the field. No "safely sending" from some other system - they'd bring a fleet to where they were at.

Just one idea on the topic. Change the mechanics to put them at more risk when deployed offensively.
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Looking for Trouble
#26 - 2012-10-26 04:17:02 UTC
since titans have gone to sh*t lately with their nerf supers are more useful in fights.

so how do you counter a Supercap fleet?, with a frick ton of dread's
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#27 - 2012-10-26 04:28:36 UTC
Meh...caps are like taxi's to many and boring we need mobile shipyards with lots a guns ..warp in crap out 16 titans some moms and start firing your area DD,s..yup.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-10-26 08:10:46 UTC
There are so many capitals and supercapitals because there are only two reasons to bring them: POS shooting and to counter an enemy POS shooting cap fleet.

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-10-26 08:23:47 UTC  |  Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2
Upkeep costs ...

Make them require fuel every hour. When out it the go to off line mod , cant move,warp, dissapear and take 24 hours to restart.
Shanlara
Weatherlight Industry
#30 - 2012-10-26 08:58:23 UTC
This is an idea that have been stucked with me ever since they made the new battlecruisers,

Why not make the same thing for a battleship, lower ehp around a normal battlecruiser and x-large weapons, anti capital ship, fast enough to avoid most super cap weapons, but high enough dmg to make a severe dent in the super caps, at least super caps without a seriose back up of sup caps to take out those ships, making a bit more dynamic in fleets, counters are not always a bad thing, and ofcause to not making capitals useless, these ships can't shoot structors, there's properly way more ways to balance it, but it seems like a better way then keep nerfing super caps, super caps should be strong, but they should also have some sort of counter that also have it's own counters.

Well that's just my thoughts of how to do something about the super cap flood.
Sh'toq
Stillwater Enterprises
#31 - 2012-10-26 09:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sh'toq
Shanlara wrote:
This is an idea that have been stucked with me ever since they made the new battlecruisers,

Why not make the same thing for a battleship, lower ehp around a normal battlecruiser and x-large weapons, anti capital ship, fast enough to avoid most super cap weapons, but high enough dmg to make a severe dent in the super caps, at least super caps without a seriose back up of sup caps to take out those ships, making a bit more dynamic in fleets, counters are not always a bad thing, and ofcause to not making capitals useless, these ships can't shoot structors, there's properly way more ways to balance it, but it seems like a better way then keep nerfing super caps, super caps should be strong, but they should also have some sort of counter that also have it's own counters.

Well that's just my thoughts of how to do something about the super cap flood.


I like this idea, combined with some sort of BS-sized HIC, although I have the feeling they would cost a whole lot more than any other T2 BS.
I would love to see a T2 Abaddon/Mael/Hyperion with thier repsective factions T2 resists and the capability to fit something similar to a Scripted Interdiction Field generators (only capable of tackling Caps, and not bubbles due to obvious overpowered reasons if used as bubble ships). At least those should last a whole lot longer on the field than Cruiser sized supertackler.
Ghazu
#32 - 2012-10-26 09:49:01 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Or they could just build an ecosystem of caps that can counter one-another as they've done with subcaps. I mean, there's only a handfull of caps right now... T2 dreads to kill supers, cyno jammer / tackle cap ships (cap HICs), EW / jammer caps, neut and drain caps, etc... solves a pile of problems all at once.

I think the problem is that supers don't come out on the field, except lol -A- as they are only good for grinding structures.
Blap titans needed to be nerfed (but now I sort of regret it) but as usual it was overkill.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Shanlara
Weatherlight Industry
#33 - 2012-10-26 09:52:48 UTC
Sh'toq wrote:
Shanlara wrote:
This is an idea that have been stucked with me~~~~


I like this idea, combined with some sort of BS-sized HIC, although I have the feeling they would cost a whole lot more than any other T2 BS.
I would love to see a T2 Abaddon/Mael/Hyperion with thier repsective factions T2 resists and the capability to fit something similar to a Scripted Interdiction Field generators (only capable of tackling Caps, and not bubbles due to obvious overpowered reasons if used as bubble ships). At least those should last a whole lot longer on the field than Cruiser sized supertackler.


I true believe that the issue will not get solved by just nerfing and buffing around at this point, the deeper issue is that supers don't have anything that hunts them, everyship is prey to something beside supers, only thing that can hunt a super is a super, we need something that can hunt a super but will be hunted by everything else, so it's more of a special force ship specifically targeted against supers.

On the subject of tackling that is indeed issue nr. two, there are quite a few ways to go around it, either by inventing a new ship, or allow other supers to tackle supers, possible give it to the carrier to give it more to do on the battlefield while also giving supers a chance to actually kill the tackler compared to if it was another super tackling it.
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Insidious.
#34 - 2012-10-26 09:59:35 UTC
It's not in the CSM's current interest to make out that supercaps are an issue to CCP... especially not with Selene and Elise on the council anyway. Elise would definitely have a problem with nerfing supercaps I'd imagine... I could be wrong though.

I still can't believe it takes 6 or 7 dd's to kill a single mothership considering how many of them can be on field. another slight EHP nerf wouldn't go amiss.

I like the idea of a T2 Hyperion and battleship class HIC though
BrutalButFair
Fleet of the Damned
#35 - 2012-10-26 10:00:00 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
CCP made the very stupid mistake of making the Titan a combat ship. This means it scales and so 'more is better'.

Combined with the ease and negligible cost for individuals to own and operate their own personal titan the situation where there are more Titans used in the game then EAF for instance was inevitable.

Titans (and in lesser degree Motherships) should have been mobile stations, with full docking capabilities and perhaps even allowing players to log off at the ship itself. Maybe even some minor station services. It should have been considered a corporate asset like an outpost. Not someone's personal e-peen extension.

Exorbitant operating costs should have kept it out of the hands of individual players and restricted it to alliances, to be used only strategically as a mobile HQ for big operations. And even though, having a mobile frontline station is a powerful force multiplier when invading another null region (with a single Titan allowing reshipping for say, a fleet of 300 players), this doesn't scale particularly well.

So there would likely only have been a few dozen of them in the game (and because of all the stuff stored in them, losing them would have been very painful, both financially and strategically), keeping them rare and 'a big deal'.

But CCP simply doesn't get it. First a anti-support with a 50M ISK shot easily capable eradicating a support fleet worth many times more, thus making it the offensive weapon of choice in null for years. And now it's a dreadnought insta-popper, blapping the ships which are supposed to counter Titans. Not to mention the impunity with which super-caps eradicated battleship combat for years.

And now we're at a point where there are way too many Titans and CCP, as usual, lacks the backbone to make unpopular decision about existing features. They rather spend a ton of resources in trying to balance Titans as combat ship (which simply is not possible due to it's apex nature), instead of re-purposing and re-coding them into alliance-level end-game logistical assets.

In the mean time a lot of feed-back is drowned in the screaming of the rich players and alliance elite who willl do and say anything to just to make sure their (specially bought/trained) personal Titan-alts don't become redundant.


This here my friends is how they should have been utilized. Good post!
Ghazu
#36 - 2012-10-26 10:03:58 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
CCP made the very stupid mistake of making the Titan a combat ship. This means it scales and so 'more is better'.

Combined with the ease and negligible cost for individuals to own and operate their own personal titan the situation where there are more Titans used in the game then EAF for instance was inevitable.

Titans (and in lesser degree Motherships) should have been mobile stations, with full docking capabilities and perhaps even allowing players to log off at the ship itself. Maybe even some minor station services. It should have been considered a corporate asset like an outpost. Not someone's personal e-peen extension.

Exorbitant operating costs should have kept it out of the hands of individual players and restricted it to alliances, to be used only strategically as a mobile HQ for big operations. And even though, having a mobile frontline station is a powerful force multiplier when invading another null region (with a single Titan allowing reshipping for say, a fleet of 300 players), this doesn't scale particularly well.

So there would likely only have been a few dozen of them in the game (and because of all the stuff stored in them, losing them would have been very painful, both financially and strategically), keeping them rare and 'a big deal'.

But CCP simply doesn't get it. First a anti-support with a 50M ISK shot easily capable eradicating a support fleet worth many times more, thus making it the offensive weapon of choice in null for years. And now it's a dreadnought insta-popper, blapping the ships which are supposed to counter Titans. Not to mention the impunity with which super-caps eradicated battleship combat for years.

And now we're at a point where there are way too many Titans and CCP, as usual, lacks the backbone to make unpopular decision about existing features. They rather spend a ton of resources in trying to balance Titans as combat ship (which simply is not possible due to it's apex nature), instead of re-purposing and re-coding them into alliance-level end-game logistical assets.

In the mean time a lot of feed-back is drowned in the screaming of the rich players and alliance elite who willl do and say anything to just to make sure their (specially bought/trained) personal Titan-alts don't become redundant.

Heard Seleene expressed a similar idea to this on a bunch of podcasts, this is why we don't need hisec ignorants in the CSM.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#37 - 2012-10-26 10:11:29 UTC
As an actual null sec player commenting on a null sec issue (so few of us these days compared to all the high seccers joining in) I'd say that being a capital pilot is boring as hell.

One day I may train for a carrier, but that is only so I can move my own stuff around. The rest of the time I see carriers and supercarriers in stations gathering dust until that 1 fight every 3 months they are required for. Carriers spend more time repairing towers and shooting structures then other ships. Titans tend to be used mainly as mobile jump bridges.

Being a capital pilot sounds like a year of training to barely do anything.


I do agree that Titans should mainly be mobile CCCs (Command and Control Centres) for null sec alliances. However I don't think they should be defenceless.

My image of them would be:

1) Allow people to dock (technical limitations I'm sure but I'm talking blue sky thinking)
2) Allow storage of goods. (see above)
3) Better bonuses to warefare link modules (they should be at least equal to a command ship)
4) Remove turret/missile bay fitting
5) Allow doomsday to fire at anything again and buff damage
6) Self defence should be via smartbombs or drones/fighters


The biggest problem with this is you'd sit your Titan in a POS in your new staging system and run as soon as any effort was made to attack it. Maybe they can only jump outside of a POS?

But yeah, those sorts of ideas I think would see titans as less combaty and more like "Ultimate command ship"

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
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