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[Winter] Support Cruisers

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Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2012-10-22 22:18:45 UTC
I'm not sure if this has already been brought up, but if it hasn't here we go.

There is a large disparity between Repair systems in terms of Power grid and CPU.

In the existing cruisers,
the Exequror can mount 4 cap stable medium remote armor units but the Osprey and count 3 Large Cap stable remote shield units

3 Large Shield >> 4 Medium Armor

The problem only gets worse with the new lineup.

With these changes it will be possible to mount an Osprey with 4 Large Shield Transfer and 1 Large Energy Transfer.

2 of these working together will be cap stable and have 25% MORE repping than two 5/1 fit Basi


-FM
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#282 - 2012-10-24 11:44:00 UTC
I'd give the scythe -5 or +5 drone bay
- that weird single light drone will be in the way anyhow and doesn't really mean anything?

Also I'd still consider allowing them to have a little more offensive stance should you want to.
If you fit your support cruiser specifically for combat it should not be an easy prey for a frigate or destroyer.

Apart from this I hope these ships won't be running large RR... Having only large RR modules being effective is against the Eve spirit and I suggested long ago to change so the smaller RR modules have better range/cycle time.

Pinky
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#283 - 2012-10-24 19:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Some new adjustments to help manage the option of using large reps:

Lowering the CPU of all medium shield transporters by another 10% compared to the earlier proposal:
Meta typeName power cpu
0 Medium Shield Transporter I 40 63
1 Medium Asymmetric Barrier Transpositioner I 40 59
2 Medium Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I 40 57
3 Medium 'Atonement' Ward Projector 40 50
4 Medium S95A Partial Shield Transporter 40 54
5 Medium Shield Transporter II 50 76
11 Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 76
11 Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 97
12 Gistum B-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 76
12 Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 100
13 Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 76
13 Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 104

Osprey: -30 cpu
Scythe: -20 pg, -100 cpu

OP has been updated.
As always thanks to everyone here for providing such great feedback for us.

These and all the other Cruiser, Destroyer and Missile changes are going to be on the Duality public test server this weekend! Come check them out and let us know what you think after flying them for realsies.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#284 - 2012-10-24 20:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheynan
TO THE EFT MOBILE


Nah, looks good so far, medium transporters should finally become standard module and 1/2 larges are still usable for comedy/niche fits.
Oxandrolone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2012-10-25 00:13:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Some new adjustments to help manage the option of using large reps:

Lowering the CPU of all medium shield transporters by another 10% compared to the earlier proposal:
Meta typeName power cpu
0 Medium Shield Transporter I 40 63
1 Medium Asymmetric Barrier Transpositioner I 40 59
2 Medium Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I 40 57
3 Medium 'Atonement' Ward Projector 40 50
4 Medium S95A Partial Shield Transporter 40 54
5 Medium Shield Transporter II 50 76
11 Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 76
11 Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 97
12 Gistum B-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 76
12 Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 100
13 Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 76
13 Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Transporter 50 104

Osprey: -30 cpu
Scythe: -20 pg, -100 cpu

OP has been updated.
As always thanks to everyone here for providing such great feedback for us.

These and all the other Cruiser, Destroyer and Missile changes are going to be on the Duality public test server this weekend! Come check them out and let us know what you think after flying them for realsies.


niiiiiiiiiice
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#286 - 2012-10-25 20:25:35 UTC
In hindsight, this could potentially be the same problem all over again.

I haven't checked the maths yet, but with the lowered cpu of medium shield transporters, how easily can the new Bantam/Burst fit those ? And would it be a similar issue if they could ?
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#287 - 2012-10-25 21:43:33 UTC
The changes to mediums does not prevent people from doing something like this:

[Osprey, WTFsprey]
Co-Processor II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Medium Energy Transfer Array II
Medium Energy Transfer Array II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Yes. With Meds you can free up some slots to get more ehp....but this configuration reps from 90km. This is a serious balance issue and should be adressed
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#288 - 2012-10-25 23:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Some new adjustments to help manage the option of using large reps:...

Would you mind walking me through what must be a very fascinating train of thought that brought you to that?

Issue: Possible to use large modules to considerably better effect than mediums.
Solution: Tweak requirements of mediums.

Huh!?!

Guessing that you think that by making mediums so cheap to fit that no real restrictions exist will make them preferable .. but that is not how it will play out.
The RR cruisers will see heavy use and as such will reach manufacturing cost on the market within weeks of launch, meaning cost to field them will be negligible. They will be spammable (ISK wise) in the extreme and will always "enjoy" a high attrition rate against which no amount of tank will help, but which can be alleviated by range and effect .. what was it again that large reps offered ...

Most curious Big smile
S1dy
Uplifting Infernal Paradise
#289 - 2012-10-26 08:31:14 UTC  |  Edited by: S1dy
Deerin wrote:
The changes to mediums does not prevent people from doing something like this:

[Osprey, WTFsprey]
Co-Processor II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Large 'Atonement' Ward Projector
Medium Energy Transfer Array II
Medium Energy Transfer Array II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Yes. With Meds you can free up some slots to get more ehp....but this configuration reps from 90km. This is a serious balance issue and should be adressed


You need a 5% Implant for more CPU, that's a high investigation for a t1 cruiser, not so viable in my opinion. But the fitting is cheaply possible with an 10MN Afterburner. Then again it has just 12160 EHP with 640 m/s. That's stupid low for a cruiser. A single right placed bomb could nearly kill you even with Invus online (you would end somewhere in the low structures).

Nevertheless, yeah, it looks something like a small problem. Maybe it's better to just restrict Large Shield Transfers on T1 cruisers? Then there is no need to take CPU and Power Grid and everyone could concentrate in tank and capacitor.

Sheynan wrote:
In hindsight, this could potentially be the same problem all over again.

I haven't checked the maths yet, but with the lowered cpu of medium shield transporters, how easily can the new Bantam/Burst fit those ? And would it be a similar issue if they could ?


Just check this.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#290 - 2012-10-26 11:38:02 UTC
Quote:
You need a 5% Implant for more CPU,


Weird....my EFT shows only 1% implant which is dirt cheap. You sure you used 'Atonement' ones?

Still....that much repping power from 90k range.....
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#291 - 2012-10-26 11:43:48 UTC
CCP do need to think about the overuse of oversized mods on ships you see it all the time with 1600's and LSE's there are two ways of fixing this problem either restrict large mods to large hulls or increase fitting pg and cpu to that of the large ships that should be using them.

I would like to see the T2 logis having to use medium reps instead of large ones also.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#292 - 2012-10-26 12:29:23 UTC
It's a good thing but really, really look into the relationship between small, medium and large RR modules: You basically use large or don't bother... Why? Because they have the advantage in not only hitpoints fixed but also in range and no real disadvantage in cycle times. I know it's an extra thing but keeping things like this won't help Eve becoming more interesting and getting back to it's core where bigger isn't always better!!
Strange Shadow
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#293 - 2012-10-27 01:17:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Strange Shadow
About updated OP - thats not enough nerfing :)

Please seriously consider to lower repair range bonus to 500% instead of 1000%
That way T1 logi would be great for cruiser/battlecruiser roams (cheap fleet=cheap logi) and T2 logi would be required for battleship gangs (for more tank/range, since we already figured out they will have roughly same rep power), so at least both T1 and T2 will have niche roles.

The way they currently posted in OP, they are way overpowered for a cheap T1 hull.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#294 - 2012-10-27 08:43:24 UTC
Strange Shadow wrote:
About updated OP - thats not enough nerfing :)
Please seriously consider to lower repair range bonus to 500% instead of 1000%


That's a good idea.
Johnny Aideron
Order of Rouvenor
#295 - 2012-10-29 08:48:23 UTC
Why does the Exequror have less total hp than the Osprey and Augror? Shouldn't it have more, being a Gallente hull?
pussnheels
Viziam
#296 - 2012-10-29 14:07:40 UTC
nice but hey CCP can i have my skillpoints back i invested on training logistics lvl 5 on 3 different characters you pretty made the t2 support cruisers useless for now

Would have been so much better if you had waited till tou were ready to rebalance the t2 cruisers aswell

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Strange Shadow
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#297 - 2012-10-31 15:43:42 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
nice but hey CCP can i have my skillpoints back i invested on training logistics lvl 5 on 3 different characters you pretty made the t2 support cruisers useless for now

Would have been so much better if you had waited till tou were ready to rebalance the t2 cruisers aswell


Well actually, proposed scythe has more bonuses to shield transfer than current scimitar. Yeah really, go ahead and compare.

I mean seriously, either adjust tech2 logistics accordingly in the same expansion, or seriously reconsider those stats, they are really insane and unbalanced. Up until now, peoples had no other means to properly rep things other than tech2 logi, and now you make all of them so irrelevant in one go.....
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#298 - 2012-10-31 22:24:50 UTC
Strange Shadow wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
nice but hey CCP can i have my skillpoints back i invested on training logistics lvl 5 on 3 different characters you pretty made the t2 support cruisers useless for now

Would have been so much better if you had waited till tou were ready to rebalance the t2 cruisers aswell


Well actually, proposed scythe has more bonuses to shield transfer than current scimitar. Yeah really, go ahead and compare.

I mean seriously, either adjust tech2 logistics accordingly in the same expansion, or seriously reconsider those stats, they are really insane and unbalanced. Up until now, peoples had no other means to properly rep things other than tech2 logi, and now you make all of them so irrelevant in one go.....



Just looking at the stats "omg they get a bonus to reps, this'll be sooo terrible" is maybe not the best approach.


With Fozzie's iteration there is no viable Scythe fit that reps more than a Scimitar (You can make one, but it consists of nothing but cap and fitting mods).
Ok, you could use something like this:
[Scythe, large transfers, MWD, eccm]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Co-Processor II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Usable, but still horribly gimped, you have about 7,5k ehp, terrible resists, terrible sensor strength and terrible cap.
It's usable because it however does rep 17% more than a standard 3rep Scimitar, reps to 90km and goes 3k m/s.
But hey, fly this and you'll be happy to survive just one tornado volley... not to speak of any enemy ewar, fast ships or whatever.
Even a Taranis could tear this up in notime.

The current iteration and fits like the one posted above leave an interesting niche for logi work. But it's far from being the doom of all T2 logistics.
Strange Shadow
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#299 - 2012-11-01 02:30:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Strange Shadow
Sheynan wrote:
Strange Shadow wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
nice but hey CCP can i have my skillpoints back i invested on training logistics lvl 5 on 3 different characters you pretty made the t2 support cruisers useless for now

Would have been so much better if you had waited till tou were ready to rebalance the t2 cruisers aswell


Well actually, proposed scythe has more bonuses to shield transfer than current scimitar. Yeah really, go ahead and compare.

I mean seriously, either adjust tech2 logistics accordingly in the same expansion, or seriously reconsider those stats, they are really insane and unbalanced. Up until now, peoples had no other means to properly rep things other than tech2 logi, and now you make all of them so irrelevant in one go.....



Just looking at the stats "omg they get a bonus to reps, this'll be sooo terrible" is maybe not the best approach.


Actually it is. Its obvious tech1 logi is way too overpowered with so many bonuses, that even tech2 ships doesnt have that much, especially so specialized in one field.

About fit - somewhat agree, but only somewhat. That fit is actually viable, and will work very well, because of 1000% RANGE BONUS. That scythe will just stay 70k+ behind (it CAN rep upto 84k, right?), and unless you bring something that can reliably shoot that far (which is, in turn, will be gimped ship that will be unable to track up close the entire fleet that is upon it), scythe is safe, and scythe reps BETTER than 3xLST scimi (hurray shield transfer amount bonus). And if somebody actually brings some alpha tornadoes to shoot it out of the sky, both scimi and scythe will be dead anyway (actually, scimi have shorter rep range, so more vulnerable). Now give me ANY reason to even start training for that scimi.

So again, nerf range bonus to 500% to enforce some kind of buffer onto tech1 logi, or do something to scimitar (scimitar will have more uses with those tracking link bonuses??? LOL for supposed-to-be tech specialist), because its so way out of balance.

And ofc its not about scythe/scimitar only, same goes for all of them. I really think that make "tech one remote repair ships designed to operate alongside or instead of the famous T2 Logistics ships" (quote from op) is really, REALLY bad idea. PLEASE dont do that. No other ship classes designed like that. People with tech2 logi (lots of them) will be so pissed about this, and for a good reason. No sane person will ever pair 200mil guardian with ANY augoror anyway, no matter how its fitted. So PLEASE rethink this concept, i beg of you. As it is, it brings only misuses and abuses of those overpowered bonuses, and will ruin the whole logistics profession.

POSes/other stuff can easily be repped with 500% bonus, so 1000% is totally redundant, same as those secondary bonuses to power transfer. Please, dont replace so-hard-to-manufacture, expensive, reliable ships we all are used to, with.... this.

Pretty please.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#300 - 2012-11-01 08:21:34 UTC
Sheynan wrote:
...The current iteration and fits like the one posted above leave an interesting niche for logi work. But it's far from being the doom of all T2 logistics.

You are right, sort of, provided nothing else changes. Problem that I and others I suppose have is that this great post-Jita-debacle balancing overhaul is in its infancy.
What happens when TD become omni-present due to getting applied to missiles, thus nerfing all ranges everywhere?
What happens when damps are finally brought up to par and ensures that no dps ever reaches beyond 50km?
What happens when ...

You get the idea. Reason why it i important to get these things right (or as close to) in the first pass is that the bulk of stuff is yet to come and having to constantly go back to reiterate on last months changes because otherwise **** wont work in Eve is inefficient as hell ...