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CCP, please, please...learn from past mistakes and slow down

Author
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#21 - 2012-10-24 20:37:40 UTC

I for one am excited by the upcoming changes.... and encourage them!!!!

Most of the changes have been discussed for quite a long time (ship changes, FW changes, etc). And many of them have been testable on the Test Servers for quite a while.... So what exactly is your problem??
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2012-10-24 20:47:09 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I for one am excited by the upcoming changes.... and encourage them!!!!

Most of the changes have been discussed for quite a long time (ship changes, FW changes, etc). And many of them have been testable on the Test Servers for quite a while.... So what exactly is your problem??

His drones keep dying to the new AI.
usrevenge
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2012-10-24 20:53:30 UTC
well the FW change will be good, the tech moon changes who knows ( high value moons are/were sources of conflict).
can't wait for dust.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#24 - 2012-10-24 20:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
BTW, please think back to Apochrypha, the one release that we were allowed to test for a long time and had all kinds of changes on Sisi I described above? Yeah, now think about how few changes were made AFTER it was released.


Apochrypha was an excellent expansion in terms of content.

It was also the buggiest expansion that CCP has ever put out.

Selective memory for the win. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#25 - 2012-10-24 20:57:09 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I for one am excited by the upcoming changes.... and encourage them!!!!

Most of the changes have been discussed for quite a long time (ship changes, FW changes, etc). And many of them have been testable on the Test Servers for quite a while.... So what exactly is your problem??


Er.....the problem is essentially CCP has a long, unfortunate track record of implementing broken concepts or code.

Let's use FW, since the hammer fell on that concept yesterday .
The desperately needed changes were not due to flawed coding, but a hugely flawed concept.

Take your pick of the following reasons that concept was implemented. Some may be true, others not, but at least one of them has to be true since CCP just erased big chunks of how they envisioned the new improved FW concept 6 months ago:

1. CCP did not think through the concept enough and did not recognize that the players would game the system perverting it from the way CCP envisioned it.

2. CCP ignored the players on the forums who recognized the problems with the concept before it went live.

3. CCP did not allow the players and devs enough time to thoroughly test the concept to avoid the exploitation that CCP just stopped.

And that was just one system. Now CCP is changing 3 new systems, overhauling FW AGAIN, and introducing Dust.
That is way way too many moving parts to ensure that there will not be "unintended consequences"....drastic ones.

I am not saying that the general thrust behind these changes is not a step forward (OK, I think the AI change is idiocy).
What I AM saying is there is no way CCP can get all these things right at the same time, especially given CCP's track record.

It would be far better to slow down the process, dump all these changes onto one server, and take months to analyze precisely how all these changes interact with the existing game.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#26 - 2012-10-24 21:13:03 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I for one am excited by the upcoming changes.... and encourage them!!!!

Most of the changes have been discussed for quite a long time (ship changes, FW changes, etc). And many of them have been testable on the Test Servers for quite a while.... So what exactly is your problem??


Er.....the problem is essentially CCP has a long, unfortunate track record of implementing broken concepts or code.

Let's use FW, since the hammer fell on that concept yesterday .
The desperately needed changes were not due to flawed coding, but a hugely flawed concept.

Take your pick of the following reasons that concept was implemented. Some may be true, others not, but at least one of them has to be true since CCP just erased big chunks of how they envisioned the new improved FW concept 6 months ago:

1. CCP did not think through the concept enough and did not recognize that the players would game the system perverting it from the way CCP envisioned it.

2. CCP ignored the players on the forums who recognized the problems with the concept before it went live.

3. CCP did not allow the players and devs enough time to thoroughly test the concept to avoid the exploitation that CCP just stopped.

And that was just one system. Now CCP is changing 3 new systems, overhauling FW AGAIN, and introducing Dust.
That is way way too many moving parts to ensure that there will not be "unintended consequences"....drastic ones.

I am not saying that the general thrust behind these changes is not a step forward (OK, I think the AI change is idiocy).
What I AM saying is there is no way CCP can get all these things right at the same time, especially given CCP's track record.

It would be far better to slow down the process, dump all these changes onto one server, and take months to analyze precisely how all these changes interact with the existing game.


I think you miss a very important design philosophy of gaming....

They don't want a perfectly balanced system...

Incursions were originally extraordinarily profitable to draw people to it... when it got out of hand, they reigned it in... and tweaked again to find a nice place for it!
The summer FW chagnes were again purposely overboosted to draw people to it... When things get out of hand, they reign them in again to try and create a nice place for it...
When CCP revamped Sov, they overbosted it to draw people to it.... when things got out of hand, they reigned them in against to try and create a nice balance for it...

They will ALWAYS overboost and then nerf the new focus area of the game... this encourages players to keep trying the new profession of the month....
Devon Krah'tor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-10-24 21:23:59 UTC
Brute force and ignorance, as my dad always said.

Do your worst CCP, its very entertaining.
Greater.Insight.Skill.Knowledge
HVAC Repairman
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-10-24 21:25:24 UTC
ship spinning needs iteration
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#29 - 2012-10-24 21:35:58 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Let's look at some recent history:

Incursions: Introduced, and then hammered back into the stone age because CCP did not forsee the players industrializing them.
FW: Overhauled, then hammered back into the stone age (yesterday) because CCP did not forsee the players industrializing them.
Tech Moons: Took a long time to happen, but the players have managed to consolidate and industrialize them, and CCP has stated they want to overhaul the system.


Note that in the case of Incursions, many of the changes were reverted due to the heavy-handedness of those changes.

In the case of Tech moons, there is an entire style of gameplay based on the income afforded by just those moons. Drastic changes to moon goo or Tech moons in particular will have a major impact on null sec.

In the case of Faction Warfare, even blind Freddy could see that the main form of income (complex spinning) did not encourage PvP, did not enrich the FW community, all the while distorting the economy by pushing module prices down and PLEX prices up.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
In every case, the player base figured out the loopholes in the mechanisms, and maximized profit., skewing the game in a manner CCP ultimately did not like.


In the case of Incursions, CCP changed the mechanics, found that the modifications broke the community, then changed some stuff back.

In the case of Tech moons, CCP is still trying to figure out how to "fix" the perceived problem without breaking the nullsec community.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
BTW, please think back to Apochrypha, the one release that we were allowed to test for a long time and had all kinds of changes on Sisi I described above? Yeah, now think about how few changes were made AFTER it was released.


In the case of Apocrypha CCP was introducing not just a modified scanning mechanic but entirely new NPC AI, an entirely new mechanic for travelling to new star systems, and an entirely new system of building space ships (reverse engineering, hulls with subsystems). That warranted an extreme amount of public testing.

In the case of the FW changes that were made earlier this week there was a system that was clearly broken where the brokenness could be simply solved using existing game mechanics, i.e.: adjust the dungeon completion trigger so that it required two conditions to be met: button timer completed, and all NPCs destroyed. The damage that plex spinning was doing to EVE Online was far greater than any amount of breakage introduced as a result of the tweaks to FW complexes.

If you are going to have difficulties with missions due to the new AI being introduced in December, you might want to consider taking friends with you on your mission-running sprees.
Arduemont
The State of War.
#30 - 2012-10-24 21:43:36 UTC
Just another whine thread, nothing to see here.

Adapt or unsub.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Commander Spurty
#31 - 2012-10-24 21:54:40 UTC
As long as my BOOT.INI file is intact after the patch, I'm a happy paying customer

Carry on with the fixes and updates and balancing.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#32 - 2012-10-24 21:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Confirming this will be completely awesome for everyone but high-sec zealots like OP. HTFU, n00b.


What a well thought-out response.
Your parents must be so proud of your literary skills.

Yes, when you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.

Pot calling kettle black, film at 11:00.

Also, you really are a terrible poster and a high-sec zealot.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-10-25 00:39:24 UTC
Johnny Bloomington wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Im getting a sexier megathron!

If I go to fanfest next year I will buy whoever made the new mega the most outragious drink I can find!

Also other stuff. Dont rag on CCP for working on EVE, this is what we wanted.


Yes the new mega looks good but the old one did too. Gallente ships don't need remodels near as bad as Minmatar and Caldari ships! Oh look its a Blackbird... Looks like Lego's gone wrong. CCP is doing the right thing remodeling the stabber/vaga! CCP, can we see an Stabber Fleet Issue pic too?



Blackbird? Have you seen the Moa? I mean really seen that thing?
Zhade Lezte
#34 - 2012-10-25 01:11:16 UTC
James 315 wrote:
I don't recall ever seeing players tell CCP "fewer new changes/features, please" before. Smile


It's a legit point, but at the still feeling rather glacial pace of CCP's fixing this broken game I'm not sure I want to encourage them to slow down.

It's interesting that all three of the issues in the OP are economy-related. How do you get players to test the far-reaching impacts of the actual tranquility economy on Sisi/whatever?

One of the more flagrant abuses (FW Forex) were told to CCP in advance, well before the changes appeared on TQ, but CCP didn't listen.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#35 - 2012-10-25 01:27:01 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Blackbird? Have you seen the Moa? I mean really seen that thing?


I love the Osprey and Blackbird. The Moa has its own curious styling, which some people might interpret as ugly, but at least it is not symmetrical and boring.

Symmetrical is boring. No two ways about it.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#36 - 2012-10-25 01:44:43 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Blackbird? Have you seen the Moa? I mean really seen that thing?

I love the Osprey and Blackbird. The Moa has its own curious styling, which some people might interpret as ugly, but at least it is not symmetrical and boring.

Symmetrical is boring. No two ways about it.

Spent so long being blown up in blackbird :)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#37 - 2012-10-25 01:58:37 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And given the incredibly short test windows CCP is allowing, it is impossible to have the long-term, widespread testing required to see how all these changes will interact.

That's because we're the testers.

And when we work out how to industrialize, CCP make the changes.

It's cheaper and better in the long run for 400,000 to find the faults than for 10 or 20.

It's the most natural and cyclical process in software development - always has been.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Macks Artilius
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-10-25 02:19:58 UTC
No, faster! Do more things! Do all the things!
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#39 - 2012-10-25 02:33:04 UTC

Confirming I am still placing a massive bounty on Dinsdale Pirannha for his terribad posting when December comes around and encourage others to join me. Feel free to post how many millions you will also place on him.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#40 - 2012-10-25 02:55:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
I'm just going to say this once... and very quietly... because some might think this an "EvE is dying" type of statement, which is not really what I'm thinking necessarily... but here it goes:

CCP needs to kick up their game. They need to do it now. There are some really great games in the pipeline that are following in CCP's footsteps w/ regards to sandboxy play, complex markets, microtransactions that are available in a cash store but also achievable in-game, etc. The difference is they have far larger budgets. These games are space games... but it's not little indy companies coming out with them. CCP is doing exactly what they need to be doing. Even so... I don't know... there's a battle on the horizon and I think EvE will be strong to early / mid 2015. Then we as players will have a lot of options, and CCP will be fighting for their company. I for one will be here in any case, but I don't pay cash to play. How many of you will be here in 2015 I wonder.... at some point the PLEX might run out. ISK might cease to matter. CCP needs to be constantly innovating. I really hope we get the full spectrum immersion / space simulator we've been promised for so long before 2015. Otherwise highsec is going to start looking like null.

...just my 2isk.

tl;dr; CCP is doing it right. I would imagine the pace of innovation and changes we have been seeing is going to be the new norm. That's a critically good thing.

Signatures should be used responsibly...