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Why a high sec nerf is good for industrialists.
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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#161 - 2012-10-23 21:56:12 UTC
Here's a little RL scenario why nerfing highsec won't work.

In Aus, years ago, the entire domestic fruit market was supplied by local producers.

Some bright spark said, "free markets" yay!!

So the producers started exporting fruit, chasing the dollars and ignoring the domestic market. They grew more trees, bought bigger farms and borrowed heavily for infrastructure.

In response, the local markets had to import fruit so we had fruit to eat. Thus, we grew fruit and exported it and imported the fruit we ate. "Free markets" at work yay!! (really?!)

Then some bright spark started competing for our export markets and now we have a local oversupply of fruit.

The producers are now whining they can't compete against imports to sell locally so fruit is being left to rot on the tree and calls are being made to limit production, not imports. (can't limit imports - free markets remember)

So now we have less fruit produced domestically and we still need to import so we have something to eat.

Of course, if the producers had supplied to the domestic market first and foremost and exported their surplus things would be very different.

In context: If we cut highsec production and buff nullsec production, highsec will be importing from nullsec (or nullsec exporting) and highsec industry will collapse. We'll be right back here in a few months - in the reverse.

Solution: How about we both just grow our own ******* fruit?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#162 - 2012-10-23 22:02:33 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:

Mining however only increases from 20M to 35M per hour or so, when you switch high-sec for low-sec, which, as witnessed by the lack of low-sec miners, apparently is not enough.


Going by raw numbers and m/3 for m/3 this is accurate, however a lot of the time when I see people talking about the increase in income a miner could get out of low, the risks do not appear to be calculated into the equation.

A solo miner, in a Retriever, has 27k m/3 of ore hold. Mines the FOTM rock in highsec, warps to and from the station to dump ore then back to rocks, gets accused of botting, etc, but for the most part, he doesn't have a lot to worry about, especially after the barge buff.
Same solo miner in lowsec, assuming there is a station in system, has the same yield and the same ore hold. He's also go Jaspet to mine, which may or may not be higher in value. He also now has to warp to a safe or dock up whenever someone enters local, and he'd best hope they don't have combat probes and some friends a couple systems over. Otherwise he's got to sit in station.
Depending on what low-sec system you are in, the frequency of visitors can be enough to make mining extremely unprofitable, or perhaps make it profitable (if you find a really quiet system), but then you have to deal with the fact that most "quiet" low-sec systems are several jumps from high-sec, and you can't exactly fly a max cargo-fit Itty V to get your minerals out of low and to a place where they will sell.

Mining in low-sec looks good on paper at times when Jaspet percolates towards the top of the value list, but in practice, it's much more profitable to mine in high-sec.

Profit favors the prepared
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#163 - 2012-10-23 22:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Null sec should be an option when it comes to industry. It currently isn't. Unless you're looking for pvp there isn't really a worthwhile benefit to choose to live in null over high sec.


The problem can be summed up in one question.

Why would you come here to do industry?



Well there is super caps industry. That is the kind of thing that has a barrier to entry which makes industry work in null.
Perhaps some sort of customs requirement to take goods out of high sec to be sold in low or null. A sort of exit tax that would drive up prices enough to protect null industry from traders under cutting local industry. I am just throwing an idea out there something outside of the box.

Or if CCP has something new up its sleeve. Like T3 mods and limits it to only null sec production. The hook.

These are called tariffs.

In a free market economy they are bad. Whether it works in a VR economy - who knows?

PS: And would only work if nullsec can produce properly too.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2012-10-23 22:37:19 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:

Mining however only increases from 20M to 35M per hour or so, when you switch high-sec for low-sec, which, as witnessed by the lack of low-sec miners, apparently is not enough.


Going by raw numbers and m/3 for m/3 this is accurate, however a lot of the time when I see people talking about the increase in income a miner could get out of low, the risks do not appear to be calculated into the equation.

A solo miner, in a Retriever, has 27k m/3 of ore hold. Mines the FOTM rock in highsec, warps to and from the station to dump ore then back to rocks, gets accused of botting, etc, but for the most part, he doesn't have a lot to worry about, especially after the barge buff.
Same solo miner in lowsec, assuming there is a station in system, has the same yield and the same ore hold. He's also go Jaspet to mine, which may or may not be higher in value. He also now has to warp to a safe or dock up whenever someone enters local, and he'd best hope they don't have combat probes and some friends a couple systems over. Otherwise he's got to sit in station.
Depending on what low-sec system you are in, the frequency of visitors can be enough to make mining extremely unprofitable, or perhaps make it profitable (if you find a really quiet system), but then you have to deal with the fact that most "quiet" low-sec systems are several jumps from high-sec, and you can't exactly fly a max cargo-fit Itty V to get your minerals out of low and to a place where they will sell.

Mining in low-sec looks good on paper at times when Jaspet percolates towards the top of the value list, but in practice, it's much more profitable to mine in high-sec.



Indeed, thanks for the input.

Thanks
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#165 - 2012-10-23 23:18:46 UTC
Geligdio Khan is either a forum troll or a wannabe pirate alt. Else he wouldn't try to get eazy targets into lowsec.

Wannabe as real pirates want competent enemys ... NOT unarmed industrial ships.

Forum Troll as anyone with brain would know, that a change like this would destroy EvE.
IF anything but Tritanium must be mined in low- or null-sec the price for EVERY item would skyrock! Do you realy like to pay 100 million for a Rifter? And another 200 million for the fitting?

Why it would be so expensive you ask?
Independet miners would be forced to calculate new mining ships once a day. So for every 100 m³ ore they would need to add the price of a full fittet mining barg. As the price of mining bargs would skyrock too ore would become even more expensive. The cycle wouldn't end and suddenly a retriver would cost 100 BILLION.

Not to count all the players who would stop playing as they simply DO NOT LIKE LOW-/NULL-SEC!
And no forum troll wannabe pirate will EVERY change their minds!

Get it into your peanut sized brain.
THEY .... DO .... NOT .... LIKE .... NULLSEC!
If they would be forced to go there ... they would racer stop playing then providing you eazy targets!

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#166 - 2012-10-24 00:03:15 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Yes, because they undermine and trivialize null sec industry by providing good at prices that make it anywhere from worthless to pointless to compete with.

Limitted volume makes it pointless to compete for sales that only give you slighly more than it cost you to build, Everytime someone imports from high sec and sells at greatly reduced profit margins in null, they make building in null worthless.


Limited volume is caused by the way null work. There is an iron curtain to cross to get in most of null space. People don't go in null because the added risk is not acceptable. If you are not member of the entity controling a territory, you don't belong there period. The fact that most people don't belong there is whats causing your market to be much smaller than high sec. Nobody buy stuff in null because nobody belongs there in the first place. I will not mine in null because I am not welcome there. The industrialist won't setup his POS there because he is not welcome there. Those people not being there also mean they won't buy stuff there since they are not even there to begin with.

Fopr more people to be in null and buy stuff in null, null has to change how it works. Put sentries at the entrance and check people. Do this to prevent spies but let some not dangeropus people get in as tourist. The missioner will buy ammo, the miner might buy crystals and the indy guy will buy mats to produce ****.

Or let the door close by shooting everyone and nobody will go in there unless they are blue or wish to harm your stuff.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#167 - 2012-10-24 02:31:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Yes, because they undermine and trivialize null sec industry by providing good at prices that make it anywhere from worthless to pointless to compete with.

Limitted volume makes it pointless to compete for sales that only give you slighly more than it cost you to build, Everytime someone imports from high sec and sells at greatly reduced profit margins in null, they make building in null worthless.


Limited volume is caused by the way null work. There is an iron curtain to cross to get in most of null space. People don't go in null because the added risk is not acceptable. If you are not member of the entity controling a territory, you don't belong there period. The fact that most people don't belong there is whats causing your market to be much smaller than high sec. Nobody buy stuff in null because nobody belongs there in the first place. I will not mine in null because I am not welcome there. The industrialist won't setup his POS there because he is not welcome there. Those people not being there also mean they won't buy stuff there since they are not even there to begin with.

Fopr more people to be in null and buy stuff in null, null has to change how it works. Put sentries at the entrance and check people. Do this to prevent spies but let some not dangeropus people get in as tourist. The missioner will buy ammo, the miner might buy crystals and the indy guy will buy mats to produce ****.

Or let the door close by shooting everyone and nobody will go in there unless they are blue or wish to harm your stuff.

People mine in null.

The way systems work and what is available to you isn't the same as high sec.

Getting more people playing in null isn't the same as saying making null a place that some random industrialist would go to. I'm talking about more people playing within the various corps that live in null. Corps don't exactly have a selling point to recruit industrialists into null.

Has anyone been able to get numbers for the amount of barges and exhumers are destroyed in null compared to high?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#168 - 2012-10-24 03:08:04 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Null sec should be an option when it comes to industry. It currently isn't. Unless you're looking for pvp there isn't really a worthwhile benefit to choose to live in null over high sec.


The problem can be summed up in one question.

Why would you come here to do industry?



Well there is super caps industry. That is the kind of thing that has a barrier to entry which makes industry work in null.
Perhaps some sort of customs requirement to take goods out of high sec to be sold in low or null. A sort of exit tax that would drive up prices enough to protect null industry from traders under cutting local industry. I am just throwing an idea out there something outside of the box.

Or if CCP has something new up its sleeve. Like T3 mods and limits it to only null sec production. The hook.


Can't say I would complain if they did that.

However,
Currently, for a lot of guys in null, it's import pretty much everything. Taxing trade wouldn't really hurt Dek, it would hurt all the small guys that depend on importing to survive in null.


Ghazu
#169 - 2012-10-24 03:14:44 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Here's a little RL scenario why nerfing highsec won't work.

In Aus, years ago, the entire domestic fruit market was supplied by local producers.

Some bright spark said, "free markets" yay!!

So the producers started exporting fruit, chasing the dollars and ignoring the domestic market. They grew more trees, bought bigger farms and borrowed heavily for infrastructure.

In response, the local markets had to import fruit so we had fruit to eat. Thus, we grew fruit and exported it and imported the fruit we ate. "Free markets" at work yay!! (really?!)

Then some bright spark started competing for our export markets and now we have a local oversupply of fruit.

The producers are now whining they can't compete against imports to sell locally so fruit is being left to rot on the tree and calls are being made to limit production, not imports. (can't limit imports - free markets remember)

So now we have less fruit produced domestically and we still need to import so we have something to eat.

Of course, if the producers had supplied to the domestic market first and foremost and exported their surplus things would be very different.

In context: If we cut highsec production and buff nullsec production, highsec will be importing from nullsec (or nullsec exporting) and highsec industry will collapse. We'll be right back here in a few months - in the reverse.

Solution: How about we both just grow our own ******* fruit?

Why is the current situation of null importing from high ok, but not when it's the other way around?

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#170 - 2012-10-24 04:05:17 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Yes, because they undermine and trivialize null sec industry by providing good at prices that make it anywhere from worthless to pointless to compete with.

Limitted volume makes it pointless to compete for sales that only give you slighly more than it cost you to build, Everytime someone imports from high sec and sells at greatly reduced profit margins in null, they make building in null worthless.


Limited volume is caused by the way null work. There is an iron curtain to cross to get in most of null space. People don't go in null because the added risk is not acceptable. If you are not member of the entity controling a territory, you don't belong there period. The fact that most people don't belong there is whats causing your market to be much smaller than high sec. Nobody buy stuff in null because nobody belongs there in the first place. I will not mine in null because I am not welcome there. The industrialist won't setup his POS there because he is not welcome there. Those people not being there also mean they won't buy stuff there since they are not even there to begin with.

Fopr more people to be in null and buy stuff in null, null has to change how it works. Put sentries at the entrance and check people. Do this to prevent spies but let some not dangeropus people get in as tourist. The missioner will buy ammo, the miner might buy crystals and the indy guy will buy mats to produce ****.

Or let the door close by shooting everyone and nobody will go in there unless they are blue or wish to harm your stuff.

People mine in null.

The way systems work and what is available to you isn't the same as high sec.

Getting more people playing in null isn't the same as saying making null a place that some random industrialist would go to. I'm talking about more people playing within the various corps that live in null. Corps don't exactly have a selling point to recruit industrialists into null.

Has anyone been able to get numbers for the amount of barges and exhumers are destroyed in null compared to high?


The number of destroyed exhumer in null would only be revelant if you make a ratio to the total number of exhumer mining compared to the number mining in high. There is no recruiting point for industrialist in null because there is no market comparable to high sec fopr selling what they produce. As long as the target can't develop, it will stay like that. Even if there was much more lines to produce stuff in null, no one would be able to buy it anyway because just getting to the market station is dangerous and you might even loose all you just bough the very second you undock. In high, while you also might loose it, the chance are lower because ganking is penalized by the way of concord. In null, you just blast away your target and all is done. You can even loot in the ship you used.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2012-10-24 04:07:21 UTC
nerfing highsec will not buff anything, it will simply make people not want to play.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#172 - 2012-10-24 04:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
James 315 wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:
I propose changing this to

High Sec, Tritanium

Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.

Notice under this system there are minerals which are only available in low, so miners will have to go there.
Moreover I propose high sec manufacturing is altered from 1000 ISK install charge, 333 Isk per hour, to 10,000 ISK install charge and 5,000 ISK per hour.

In before you're accused of being my alt. I agree that highsec needs a catastrophic nerf and that it would benefit industrialists. Smile

And you would lose all your playmates then what will you do, duh, no more miner bumping, yeah take advice from a non industrialist on what serves best for indys, UNDERSTAND T H E R E IS N O T H I N G WRONG WITH LOW SEC OR DULL SEC the problem is not everyone in this game chooses to play a s s grabbing games with people who enjoy fondling each others genitals CAN YOU PROCESS THIS INTO YOUR BRAINS ARE YOU SO OBTUSE IT DOESN'T SINK IN.
And below me Ghazu you are even more clueless if you bothered to check I have lived in dull I've lived in WH, I've PVP in low...DOES IT SINK IN....SHAMPOO YOUR HEAD AND GET THAT CRUST OF DANDRUFF BLOCKING THE SIGNALS OFF.
funny thing baltic1, I found it easier to just build in Null and sell to corp mates and alliance members and I had so much material it was simple to build large projects but alias I became bored and left got tired of politics of others and I wanted to do what I wanted not what serves the amusement of others...thought that was the point of paying for this game amuse myself, however Iam in complete agreement make NPC stations in every corner of 0.4 and below and get rid of SOV no more silly bills to pay and make Titans dockable this way Null dwellers can keep all there isk'es and have the benefits of hi sec wal-mart in every corner of 0.0.
Ghazu
#173 - 2012-10-24 05:36:18 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
James 315 wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:
I propose changing this to

High Sec, Tritanium

Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.

Notice under this system there are minerals which are only available in low, so miners will have to go there.
Moreover I propose high sec manufacturing is altered from 1000 ISK install charge, 333 Isk per hour, to 10,000 ISK install charge and 5,000 ISK per hour.

In before you're accused of being my alt. I agree that highsec needs a catastrophic nerf and that it would benefit industrialists. Smile

And you would lose all your playmates then what will you do, duh, no more miner bumping, yeah take advice from a non industrialist on what serves best for indys, UNDERSTAND T H E R E IS N O T H I N G WRONG WITH LOW SEC OR DULL SEC the problem is not everyone in this game chooses to play a s s grabbing games with people who enjoy fondling each others genitals CAN YOU PROCESS THIS INTO YOUR BRAINS ARE YOU SO OBTUSE IT DOESN'T SINK IN.

Similar to taking advice from someone who is clueless on null/low according to your logic.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#174 - 2012-10-24 05:52:52 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:


In context: If we cut highsec production and buff nullsec production, highsec will be importing from nullsec (or nullsec exporting) and highsec industry will collapse. We'll be right back here in a few months - in the reverse.

Solution: How about we both just grow our own ******* fruit?

Why is the current situation of null importing from high ok, but not when it's the other way around?

I'm not saying it's OK but it works so it's a case of "deal with it" in the interim. Find it hard to believe people actually want things to be more expensive.

Ultimately my thoughts are that if we nerf high to "fix" null we'll simply reverse the problem. We can't state for a certainty what the ramifications might be. eg: What if Goons decide to choke exports leaving their null space? If their size means they own a big slice of the industrial market, they could effectively cripple everybody on a whim. Do we want that control in the hands of one person?

So I'm saying we need to make it possible to grow "our own fruit" properly in our respective sectors and let the producer decide where he sells - if he has surplus. That's the way a real economy should be working.

By rights, the ONLY variable should be cost of export/import. Everything should (in a utopian kind of way) be on a level playing field.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#175 - 2012-10-24 05:56:11 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:

And you would lose all your playmates then what will you do, duh, no more miner bumping, yeah take advice from a non industrialist on what serves best for indys, UNDERSTAND T H E R E IS N O T H I N G WRONG WITH LOW SEC OR DULL SEC the problem is not everyone in this game chooses to play a s s grabbing games with people who enjoy fondling each others genitals CAN YOU PROCESS THIS INTO YOUR BRAINS ARE YOU SO OBTUSE IT DOESN'T SINK IN.

Before you rage more I just want to point out that I am an industrialist and that I dont build stuff out in null sec because its cheaper to build in high sec and export it
svenska flicka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#176 - 2012-10-24 05:56:29 UTC
I welcome highsec nerf.
Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#177 - 2012-10-24 06:02:50 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Wannabe as real pirates want competent enemys ... NOT unarmed industrial ships.
That's one of the most idiotic things I've read today.
It's always in a true pirate's best interest to pick a wealthy target that doesn't put up much of a fight.

Who put the goat in there?
svenska flicka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#178 - 2012-10-24 06:05:13 UTC
Shederov Blood wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Wannabe as real pirates want competent enemys ... NOT unarmed industrial ships.
That's one of the most idiotic things I've read today.
It's always in a true pirate's best interest to pick a wealthy target that doesn't put up much of a fight.



in Hollywood pirates are honorable fighters only attacking what can defend itself.

I blame Hollywood.
svenska flicka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#179 - 2012-10-24 06:06:24 UTC
I will be alot more fun mining in lowsec than high especially if I had ot and it would be more profitable. Highsec mining is boring.
Ghazu
#180 - 2012-10-24 06:19:02 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:


In context: If we cut highsec production and buff nullsec production, highsec will be importing from nullsec (or nullsec exporting) and highsec industry will collapse. We'll be right back here in a few months - in the reverse.

Solution: How about we both just grow our own ******* fruit?

Why is the current situation of null importing from high ok, but not when it's the other way around?

I'm not saying it's OK but it works so it's a case of "deal with it" in the interim. Find it hard to believe people actually want things to be more expensive.

Ultimately my thoughts are that if we nerf high to "fix" null we'll simply reverse the problem. We can't state for a certainty what the ramifications might be. eg: What if Goons decide to choke exports leaving their null space? If their size means they own a big slice of the industrial market, they could effectively cripple everybody on a whim. Do we want that control in the hands of one person?

So I'm saying we need to make it possible to grow "our own fruit" properly in our respective sectors and let the producer decide where he sells - if he has surplus. That's the way a real economy should be working.

By rights, the ONLY variable should be cost of export/import. Everything should (in a utopian kind of way) be on a level playing field.

Buffing null will indirectly nerf highsec production via ramifications, that would be enough for me. Nerfing highsec is only the icing on the cake, if it does not happen welp that's just another item on the long list of injustices in the game.
Null industry have been "dealing with it" for long enough, but to you it's just how things work right?

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984