EVE General Discussion

The current already near limitless supply of low end minerals is not enough for production to consume all high end coming from either stockpile from past drone poo or whatever amount is currently mined for the price to rise. Increasing the rarity of low end will not drive those price up. The limiting factor is still the low end and reducing thier supply would only raise those price. The reduction in yield in high sec no matter how big will never drive up the price of high end ore only available in null. To drive up the price of null opre, you either reduce the supply of those or increase thier deamand. The demand for null ore is drive by the availability of low end ore because you can't produce anything without trit anyway.

The industry on the other hand would probably start increasing in null as mining in null would serve more of a purpose than only mining high end to ship in high sec. One could potentially make a large mining op to supply a chain of production by getting all his opre from a single place (if system exist that provide such thing. I never visited null so I have no idea what the belts really look like. I heard they are hugh tho.) with really nice refinining rate. Possession of territory with good belts would be worth something for alliance/corp with a large indy arm.

But the problem to all of this is the ease of transport of goods between high sec and null sec. In a sense because there is almost no risk to move goods between then it does not matter this distinction between high end and low end ores. There is no barrier to entry, no wide moat of protection, No tariffs if you will to protect null industry. It is free trade in both directions.
As long as high sec is the place to do mass production which is by its nature more efficient (and is as it should be) then Null industrialists will always be able to be undercut by traders. I am not suggesting that null sec become the place to do mass production efficiently. I am trying to point out that the main problem is the ease of trade between the two areas of space.

I think High sec is in effect the perfect storm, it's the safest, closest to the market hubs, has half the materials you need and has a vast number of manufacturing slots.

There really is no reason to leave and a small change wont change that. It needs to be something big enough to create more trade hubs.

Is it not weird there are only 5 hubs for a game with 7500 systems? Oughtn't there be 50 big hubs?

To prove your point, please undock in a mining barge in low sec and make me a Raven.

A Raven hand built in Rancer would be appreciated. For a change, Mara is quite close to the Forge (Jita), try building and mining out of there/

And let's make that a double +1 shall we ..

Move all mining to gravimetric sites. Make gravimetric sites respawn all over the galaxy, and increase the despawn timer to at least a month. The result is that most gravimetric signatures are to be found in desolate, dangerous systems. In case of null and W-space, systems that become worth fighting over. There will be still be ores to mine in high-sec, maybe even in Jita itself, but those will require a lot of exploration to find and will be heavily contested , so not very appealing for big, serious mining operations.

The respawn chances need to be tweaked so low-end ores are more likely to respawn in high-sec (where most miners will remain), and high-end ores in null and WH (with the occasional 'jackpot' in high-sec). Also ores could be made to prefer spawning under certain NPC Factions, to mimic the current distribution.

Then massively increase the base yield for ore mining. My estimate is that the threshold at which point players in EVE start taking serious risks and/or cooperate heavily is currently around 100M ISK/hour.

In a normal situation with the current mineral prices, a Hulk can pull in 20M ISK worth of high-sec minerals per hour.

So this is a bit of a shot in the dark, but if the overall ore yield of miners is multiplied by at least a factor of five (might be more), I suspect the game can make the transition to a system with less actual miners, now a more difficult and possibly even dangerous job, without the mineral prices going out of control, hurting everybody else, because of the supply would remain on the same level.

Mining ice should remain the same as it is now though, to continue to accommodate AFK miners in this game. Nothing wrong with them, only they shouldn't be allowed to compete on the same level with more active miners taking risks.

So, it benefits 2 groups of people from what I understand.

Null sec alliances, and perhaps miners if they are making 100m isk/hour. I highly doubt the alliances would allow the miners to make this much, since the miners would be 100% reliant on the alliance to protect them, as well as possibly locating sites.

Now how does that affect everyone else that plays the game?

Don't you think that people that don't live in null would see massive inflation as a result of this?

Making more then 100M/hour with Incursions is not for many. Most people make around 75M I think?

Before the nerf there WERE people running low-sec Incursions though (well-run VGs, +40% payout, but less shinier fleets and a lot of security measure overhead and so they made around 130M ISK/hour I'm guessing).

On the other hand, on average you can make 80M to 100M quite easily by risky low-sec exploration, and there are quite a few people actually doing that. I suspect W-space daytripping is comparable.

Mining however only increases from 20M to 35M per hour or so, when you switch high-sec for low-sec, which, as witnessed by the lack of low-sec miners, apparently is not enough.

Risk-free L4 mission running, makes around 60M/ hour, depending on multi-boxing and salvage, which seems to have been a threshold for many to give up playing solo missions for Incursions.

The recent spike in mineral prices caused by the dronepoo nerf, made many of null players switch from running anoms to mining ABC, which at that point could make them over 100M/hour.

Making people switch from solo to cooperation, from low to high risk, from PVE to mining, for many players it's simply determined by profit. The key for CCP is finding the ISK/hour threshold at which point high-sec solo miners transform into low sec mining corporations, and adjust the yield so this ISK/hour can be reached at current mineral prices.

Yes my 100M/hour is a guesstimate. I already said it could be higher. I challenge you to come up with a more accurate one.

It will benefit the alliances because the increased yield will make them less dependent on low-end supply from empire (though now they will have to mine it themselves, instead of simply buying it in Jita using their moongoo ISK).

This should be combined though with a considerable increase in jump freighters fuel consumption to finally sever the economic umbilical cord between null and empire (which was for example the main reason why cheap dronepoo ever became a problem for the miners in empire).

High-sec miners will be affected ofcourse. The lazy miners will switch to ICE (if they hadn't already), and the ones too scared to enter low-sec will either explore for the occasional high-sec gravimetric sites (with the higher yield, still OK income), or settle in a desolate system with a bigger logistical burden but a less contested supply of ores. Or, if they like to take a risk, they could go into low-sec and find not only mid-level ores in abundance and closer to trade-hubs, but also the occasional ABC site (enough to make them rich, but not enough to influence the high-end import from null).

The overall number of people mining will likely be reduced (a lot of them bots), but the ones that stick around will make a LOT more money then they used to, because of the increased yield.

And this increased yield (if well-adjusted) makes sure that the overall supply, remains the same, mineral prices remain the same, the rest of EVE is not affected (birthing pangs aside). The biggest way non-miners are affected is that they now can go mining and have an Incursion-level income or better.

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One very positive side-effect though, affecting everyone, is that a lot of the production of low-end minerals will be more spread out evenly over high-sec (sites can respawn anywhere) With solo-miners exploring for highly contested sites in high-population areas, while big mining corporations cleaning out the accumulated sites in desolate regions, possibly even staking a temporary claim in the richest pockets.

In a way this is already happening now ofcourse at asteroid belts, but the gap between scarcity and abundance is insufficient to stimulate players forming multiple trade and production hubs instead of the single superhub at jita.

I didn't specuale that reducing the output of low ends in high would drive up the cost of high ends.

Reducing the output of low ends in high sec would increase the value of low ends mined out of null.
Reducing refine rates in high would also effectively increase output of low ends in null, without actually injecting more trit into the systems.


Null sec should be an option when it comes to industry. It currently isn't. Unless you're looking for pvp there isn't really a worthwhile benefit to choose to live in null over high sec.


The problem can be summed up in one question.

Why would you come here to do industry?