EVE New Citizens Q&A

The question how people act inside the game as compared to outside the game is a very interesting one and has been discussed many times.
My view is that people don't stray that much from their real life moral parameters and EVE is a pretty accurate reflection of real life moral integrity of an average group of above average intelligent people without the fear of authority hanging over them.

Thinking about this is usually the point where I reach for a bottle...

we don't *all* dislike the former Band of Brothers ... or at least I'm too young to have known much of the "bad" that they did ... it was all stories and "legend" by then -- same with Mo0...

I'd disagree a bit. Not that much off but a bit.

Some players are as you describe - they more envy those IRL that seem to get away with brutality and wish they could be that way. Others...

People do what they would like to be able to do in this game - constrained by game mechanics and other player attitudes/opinions. How this translates to RL morality, or how they express themselves morally in RL: This is often quite different. Many just choose to "get along" and "fit in" here. Think of it as the "sheeple" reaction - or more PC: "civilized" based upon the norms of where you are at. "When in Rome..."

I've used the question "Which is better: To judge someone for what they must do for a living or what they choose to do for fun?" That' is as incomplete a picture as the "it's just a game!" responses.

That one liner - "When you dance with the devil, the devil don't change; the devil changes you." is applicable.

I don't see much of this stuff as "shades of gray" - but as "degrees of toxicity". A spoonful of bleach in a gallon of water isn't bad. A spoonful of water in a gallon of bleach - undrinkable. Each individual will have a different "getting sick from it" point.

When 'the norm" is brutality and abuse of any you can get away with abusing, then you either figure out how to fit in or move on. Luckily there are many niches in this game where various degrees of toxicity can be found so "fitting in" isn't a Boolean thing.

So many might find such things abhorrent in real-life, may find themselves involved in some of the most grotesque amoral activities here and won't give it another thought unless it's bluntly brought up to them -- at which point... Things can get interesting. Especially if they look at what they do here and try to apply "deeply personal" moral values to their actions.

I've seen a few that pretty much have to turn away from the topic simply due to how "morally offensive" they find their own actions to be. Others try and "justify it" while still others try to draw the same mindset out of the game into the real-world.

It's a fascinating composite environment.

Hi there. A little background about me: I started playing this game in mid-2005 and have been playing it ever since, sometimes more frequently than others. I'm a pvp centric player, I've done large fleet fights in null security space, I've been a contracted mercenary, and most recently I've been a pirate. I enjoy the shadier sides of the game, though usually I don't do much scamming unless I'm in need of a quick cash infusion. So here is my answer to the questions:

As an overarching statement about how our community and perceptions within the game affects the language within the game, I'll simply say that the terms, such as noob, carebear, pirate, scammer, can certainly be used negatively when referring to individuals. Some, such as Elitist, don't really have any other meanings and are solely used for negative purposes, but the ones I listed int he last sentence have multiple meanings.

Noob can mean either a newbie, or someone legitimately new to the game, or it can mean someone who has chosen not to learn the mechanics of the game or follow game convention in a way that is accepted by the community. For example, a competitive individual can call someone a noob who lost their ship in a way that the person shouldn't have.

Carebear can be used as both ways as well, depending on which side of the PVP fence you sit on. Those like me who are pvp centric generally use carebear in a negative way, meaning someone who has no knowledge or very little knowledge of pvp. Other individuals who concentrate on doing PVE content or playing the market, can call each other or themselves carebear as a term of endearment.

Pirate goes the same way as carebear. For people like me, being called a pirate isnt negative, it's a badge of honor. Likewise, if other people were to call me a carebear to their friends, they may mean it in a negative way.

Scammers are generally negative because scammers, in general, make victims out of everybody. Trust in Eve is a valuable commodity so the community at large dislikes scammers, even though a great many will learn scams from other people and copy them for their own profit. Those who do really well are those who come up with new ideas, never done before, and score big.

Now that I've gotten some of the terms out of the way, I'll explain how values come into play when I play games, such as Eve. My values are rock solid. From the time I was born to the time I left my house, both my parents have taught me that stealing was wrong, that telling the truth is paramount, and to generally just be a good person. My parents are both great examples of role models, and if I'm half the parent to my children that they were to me, I'll be happy. As I've grown up, however, I've come to my own realization that morals aren't all black and white. Cultures have different moral standards, religions have different moral standards, and some things that when you're young you think is absolutely true you come to believe, with age, are not so easy to classify. One classic example is "If your family were starving and on the brink of death with no money and no way to provide for themselves, would you steal food to feed them?" My answer to that would be yes, I would absolutely steal. Even so, I wouldn't kill to feed my family; murder is one line I would not cross.
This moral "grayness" translates into Eve in very different ways than they do in real life. For me, it comes from the fact that this is a game, and I play it for fun. I want to experience this game to its fullest, and that entails taking the game mechanics to teir max, and doing things that I would never do in real life. I have had an amazing amount of fun being a pirate, which entails pillaging the space lanes and "murdering" innocent people. However, since this is a game centered around pixels, I do not, and never will, consider it actual murdering. If someone wanders into my area, they are fair game as outlined by the game mechanics, and if they get angry that they were relieved of their ship and their cargo, it's their own problem for entering that area (ignorance of the game mechanics is not a valid defense for their ships). That is not to say I never regret killing someone. On the contrary, there have been several times where a legitimately new player (or a noob) has wandered into my area, and I have killed them, only to see a few minutes later that they genuinely didn't know. In these cases, I have sent money and have always tried (if they're willing) to train them in how to either avoid more confrontation, or how to survive it. To reiterate, having fun in the game is being able to be someone or do something that I can't do in life.

I have to disagree a bit here. It might just be my personal opinion but i honestly dont think that being rejected is why so many people disliked/hated BOB. I think a lot of it has to do with jelousy (sp). Ofc a lot of the **** that happend way way back has something to do with it as well.

New players come into the game. Many would instantly be told what lame cheaters and so on BOB were,and that person will spread it on to the next and so on. Thats how things normally go in smaller communeties. Think about it like that bad neighbor that everyone loves to find dirt on because they have a nice looking yard/house. I think many dont know WHY they dont like BOB,they just know that most people dont and they dont want to be different,or do the proper research.

But you can also think about it like this. BOB was huge for a long time when 0.0 really was the only/best option for "end game" play if you can call it that. The gods of the land of milk and honey. This is were the jelousy part comes into the picture. Think about my exampel with the neighbor with the nice house and yard. Would you ever admit that you are indeed jelous? Heck no,that would be a sign of weakness. But jelousy easly turns into rage,rage turns into hate.And when you dont know anyone who can prove you wrong,who is there to correct this impression?

I can openly admit that yes BOB were good,and they also scared the living **** out of me,and i was right up there cheering when they finally went down (well until i found out how they went down that is,i still dont consider that a real victory,clever perhaps but... ).

Anyway. Every communety needs someone to pick on. The most obvius ones are the ones that are the most succesful. Weather or not you have to make up lies,or tales,anything that can make them look bad,or explain why they are doing so good,people will swallow it raw.Its human nature really.

But i also have to add that i have never actually talked to a BOB member who dident act like a cocky ******* (no offense to anyone,im sure BOB had a lot of good people in it,and i was unlucky enough to just come across the bad ones who let the power go to their heads).

Anyway,this might be something else you can use for your project Marabi?

Hey all,


I just wanted to ask a few more questions that came to mind after reading everyone's responses. I know that there have been comments about Eve being too young of a community to effectively have created its own language, but I am still going to ask these questions which may sound like I did not read the posts that made that claim...

1) Is there any terminology, slang words, or acronyms that have been dropped out of usage over time in Eve?

2) Is there any new terminology, slang words, or acronyms that have developed over time in Eve?

If your response to these questions is "yes" I would greatly appreciate it if you provided examples and, if you are privy to this information, if you would provide whether it is an strictly Eve phenomenon or if is and internet wide (or at least MMO wide) phenomenon of language development. If you do not know whether it is Eve specific or not that's fine.

Castronova (Blog=TerraFirma) uses the term synthetic world to refer to the game universe. He also has a great book on the economics of such named Synthetic Worlds.

That's really cool! Thank you!

It seems to me the scope of your research is rather broad and, perhaps more importantly, has little to do with discourse. Your questions are more related to social psychology and group dynamics. In fact, none of your dozen (or so) questions relate to discourse or language.

Also, I believe your premise is wrong. You state that "[a] Discourse Community is a grouping of people who have an expert knowledge on something (anything) and their language is a key factor for defining the community." and want to study the EVE community as an example. I don't think language is a "key factor" in defining the EVE community. THE key factor is of course EVE itself, but other factors might be a shared interest in gaming, roleplaying, or the space-theme. Language does not play a role in this, as is evidenced by the fact that the EVE community is split by language - "the Russians" being the most obvious example, but there are large German and French communities too. Plus many corporations are share a particular nationality/language even when using English as their main language in EVE. Furthermore, there are likely to be large differences in discourse of heavy forum-users compared to those members of the EVE community who never visit the forum.

In short, I think you're not doing discourse research and you're not doing it on a discourse community. Good luck with your research paper!

Thank you for bringing up how "Key Factor" was an inappropriate phrase used in my definition in "Discourse Communities". I apologize for that confusion. I should have stated that the language of a discourse community is a means of defining it linguistically from other communities and can be a key factor of definition. Really, the only major qualification for a discourse community is that there is communication. I do think Eve does fall into this category since there is communication. A community also does not have to be united. There are many communities in the world that a split into sub communities due to differences. I believe that communities are not devoid of conflict, but rather that conflicts, tensions, or splits are inherent to a community. However, I should have clarified this. Sorry.

However, I will not apologize for my broad questions that might not seem directly concerned with language. I prefer to ask broad questions to get a overall understanding of my topic so I can figure out what thesis I will narrow down to, rather than picking a narrow topic and trying to puzzle piece information to that. I work better allowing the research to guide my argument instead of finding evidence to fit my argument. I also think that leads to potentially biased information. This is how I work.

Also, I believe that language does not separately develop from the community, but that it develops to meet the community's needs and works within the architecture of the environment set up by the community. This can include a multitude of things including the dynamics of the community as well as the psychology of the community, which I feel forms the semantics and pragmatics of the language. For example, the game's premise of being sci-fi themed directly affects that the language used will fit within the constraints of language typically used for science fiction rather than, say, fantasy.
So, I do not think my questions are devoid of value for discussing the discourse of a community.

I also think that language does not have to be limited to define a community. I think the broadness of languages says something about Eve and defines it as a global community.

Thank you for your criticism and concern for my project .