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Better highsec, NPC rats and CONCORD.

Author
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#1 - 2012-09-09 05:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
It occurred to me, that highsec as implemented currently, is very much antagonistic to both carebear crowd, and PVPers, and completely out of touch with Eve as a whole.

The way to duel, is to steal from a can, to PVP is to bait mission runner to take stuff that you dropped, and to suicide gank. Neither of the three have a game mechanics implemented in them. There are no concepts such as hunt and fleeing or evasion.

If I know I receive aggro if I take your stuff, your ninja alt will never bait me by looting my mission wrecks and jettisoning stuff back.

Second, Eve lacks flavor. Remember, when you signed up for the first time, didnt you want to become a pirate? But for the most part Eve didnt deliver. You can say, everyone can be a hero tackle, but remember, we play games to escape from reality and be in another 'world'. And for many being a tackler doesnt correlate with imagined 'story' of their character, Caldari Navy officer turned pirate for example, or somesuch.

I have a vision of Eve where siding with pirate factions will offer much more than expensive faction stuff or implants that can be sold.

Mission pockets, while not cleared, will temporarily be 'pirate controlled space' in the way that under certain circumstances, NPCs can prevent CONCORD response.

For example, mission runner gets a mission vs. Guristas faction. If he is scanned during a mission by a player with positive faction standing toward Guristas (lets say above 1.0), NPC rats will treat that other player as a friendly, unless fired upon.
Timer will start, after which NPC rats have supressed CONCORD response. If theres significant amount of rats in the pocket, timer will be very short, forcing, in essence, mission runner to dscan and maybe even fight aligned. Otherwise, with few NPCs there, timer will be long, so he could even clear the site then leave.

When timer goes to zero, PVP can commence without interference by CONCORD.

What can mission runner do? Well, simply warp out and take another mission.

For this small amount of pirate LP would be rewarded, but only for kills of hulls of certain value, so that theres no method of exploit.

Could this work for missions vs Empire factions? I believe so, if you accept mission vs. Empire, you could become flagged within the pocket for anyone with positive standing with that faction. But mission runners tend to avoid missions vs Empire factions.

Could this work in null, I mean, that Empire aligned player can do that to mission runner for pirate faction? Theres no reason to, as PVP is unrestricted there.

Hell, pirate rats in certain areas could even have 'kill lists' of mission runners, that will have to be more cautious, because timers would be shorter? Why not, if its implemented properly.

Also there could be changes in PVE too, that certain rats must be pointed or will just warp away and site cant be completed, as well as that you have to use a prop mod of some sort. But maybe thats for separate thread, idk.


ISK/hr, for missioning in highsec would be the same, if the mission runner isnt AFK, or just clueless or lazy. Lazy, AFK and clueless will be ganked.

Discuss.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#2 - 2012-09-09 05:20:10 UTC
Reserved.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2012-09-09 06:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Nestara Aldent wrote:
The way to duel, is to steal from a can, to PVP is to bait mission runner to take stuff that you dropped, and to suicide gank. Neither of the three have a game mechanics implemented in them. There are no concepts such as hunt and fleeing or evasion.

I very much disagree with this statement.

Suicide gankers do indeed hunt. They either want the softest target possible or the most profitable. Preferably both. Thus, gankers have to check and see what haulers and/or ships are carrying (hunting), get into position to catch the unsuspecting victim (setting up a trap), and then getting their pods and their own industrial (which scoops all the loot) out once the deed is done.

At the same time the hauler pilot who wants to move things has to decide whether the tank and/or ability on his/her ship is sufficient given the value of the cargo (risk assessment = evasion), if the route is clear of any ganking activity (possible future evasion), and/or get his/her alt/friend to scout a jump or two ahead to see if there are any "unusual formations" of ships on gates or on D-Scan (possible evasive action).
And if the hauler is very smart, then the hauling ship will be ready to escape imminent threat using the cloak-MWD trick and/or warp core stabilizers (fleeing).


Now... I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that by "hunt and flee" you are basically referring to a more "direct" confrontation between both sides.
Sadly... that's NOT how the game was designed. It's far more cerebral than that (think chess as opposed to checkers). And those of us who play really enjoy it for that exact reason.


Nestara Aldent wrote:
Second, Eve lacks flavor. Remember, when you signed up for the first time, didnt you want to become a pirate? But for the most part Eve didnt deliver. You can say, everyone can be a hero tackle, but remember, we play games to escape from reality and be in another 'world'. And for many being a tackler doesnt correlate with imagined 'story' of their character, Caldari Navy officer turned pirate for example, or somesuch.

I have a vision of Eve where siding with pirate factions will offer much more than expensive faction stuff or implants that can be sold.

It's not the game's fault that people are used to being the "hero" in other games and can't be like that in this game. No one is entitled to anything they haven't worked for. That includes skill (both player-wise and character-wise).

Plus... this is a multiplayer sandbox... which means that anything you can do I can do too... which may be to your benefit or consequence. You can have the "story of your character" mapped out... but I have the ability to mess around with it... because that's MY story. It's up to you on what your response will be.


Nestara Aldent wrote:
Could this work for FW? I believe so, if you accept mission vs. Empire, you could become flagged within the pocket for anyone with positive standing with that faction. But mission runners tend to avoid missions vs Empire factions.

This is already the case.

When you warp to the mission in a system, a beacon pops up for everyone to see. This allows anyone to warp into your mission anytime. And because FW missions are all in low-sec, anyone can engage you (non-wartargets take a security penalty for doing so, but few really care).

Nestara Aldent wrote:
Could this work in null, I mean, that Empire aligned player can do that to mission runner for pirate faction? Theres no reason to, as PVP is unrestricted there.

People already do this. They use probes to locate the mission site and warp in. It's a bit of an artform to get in and catch mission runners in 0.0 space as most of the people who manage to make it out there are quite savvy and know how to avoid danger.


Overall... as much as I enjoy the prospect of hunting down poor mission runners I'm going to have to say "no" to your idea. The premise is bad and the actual meat of the idea would make mission runners scream and cry as any risk outside of the NPCs to their precious mission boats is unacceptable in their eyes.

edit: I just reread the whole thing... and it smacks of someone who has never left high-sec. OP... grab a ship you don't mind losing (I highly recommend a gank-fit combat frigate) and charge into low-sec. Warp to the belts and see if you can't find someone willing to engage you.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#4 - 2012-09-09 06:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
ShahFluffers wrote:
Nestara Aldent wrote:

This is already the case.

When you warp to the mission in a system, a beacon pops up for everyone to see. This allows anyone to warp into your mission anytime. And because FW missions are all in low-sec, anyone can engage you (non-wartargets take a security penalty for doing so, but few really care).


Oh I'll correct it. I had missions vs. Empire factions in mind, and not FW missions.

[quote]Overall... as much as I enjoy the prospect of hunting down poor mission runners I'm going to have to say "no" to your idea. The premise is bad and the actual meat of the idea would make mission runners scream and cry as any risk outside of the NPCs to their precious mission boats is unacceptable in their eyes.


Now, risk will remain zero if you dscan and are aligned. Right now missions dont pose any risk whatsoever, everything you need to know is on eve-survival, and eventually, if you cant lose in a game, it will bore you to hell, its a routine, without any challenge (and that applies to Eve PVE).
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2012-09-09 06:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Now, risk will remain zero if you dscan and are aligned. NPC rats dont pose any risk whatsoever, and theres no risk involved at all - everything you need to know is on eve-survival. And eventually, if you cant lose in a game, it will bore you to hell. Thats why ppl who play WoW and similar games qq about them, yet they still cant leave them, as theyre addicted to their characters and the game.

So why make missions more interesting? Let them be so bored that they one day decide "I'm going to try something new and interesting." You never know... some of those mission runners may not be TOO risk adverse and just need to fall into that pit of boredom before looking for the "next thing."



Look... I enjoy non-consensual combat. That's why I live down in low-sec. And when it comes under attack from foaming carebears I defend it fiercely. But there is also a limit to how far you can take it and ram it down people's throats.

Your idea goes way past that "limit" IMO.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#6 - 2012-09-09 06:33:39 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Now, risk will remain zero if you dscan and are aligned. NPC rats dont pose any risk whatsoever, and theres no risk involved at all - everything you need to know is on eve-survival. And eventually, if you cant lose in a game, it will bore you to hell. Thats why ppl who play WoW and similar games qq about them, yet they still cant leave them, as theyre addicted to their characters and the game.

So why make missions more interesting? Let them be so bored that they one day decide "I'm going to try something new."

Look... I enjoy non-consensual combat. That's why I live down in low-sec. And when it comes under attack from foaming carebears I defend it fiercely. But there is also a limit to how far you can take it and ram it down people's throats.

Your idea goes way past that "limit" IMO.


You see, I wouldnt like to PVP in low/null with 10:1 odds - either as attacker or defender. That kind of PVP doesnt interest me. There were many ideas for battlegrounds or arena in Eve here that were fundamentally away from Eve philosophy and would make ppl go away from open world PVP. This one isnt.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2012-09-09 07:00:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Nestara Aldent wrote:
You see, I wouldnt like to PVP in low/null with 10:1 odds - either as attacker or defender. That kind of PVP doesnt interest me. There were many ideas for battlegrounds or arena in Eve here that were fundamentally away from Eve philosophy and would make ppl go away from open world PVP. This one isnt.

If that's your reasoning... what's to stop a whole bunch of people from warping into a mission en mass and WTFBBQPWNing the poor mission runner? The same holds true for the mission runner. He/she could be a PvPer who wants people to come in so he/she can gank the invader with cloaked friends.

The general reasoning behind those arena ideas is the want of "fairness." And the only way to ensure "fairness" in a game where the rules are grey and the mechanics so open is to "instance"... which is something that clashes with the core concept of EVE ("Everyone Versus Everyone" all at the same time).

In other words... "fairness" is a fairy tale in a game like this. As a pilot... your job is to learn what you can do, what your strengths are, and how to use those strengths to your advantage to stack the odds in your favor.
I've seen solo Vagabonds and sniper Tornados dome some serious damage to small and medium sized fleets by flying smartly... using range and speed to pull apart a fleet... and using kiting tactics to pick apart the "squisher" ships before GTFOing.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#8 - 2012-09-09 07:09:07 UTC
Well I still think it would be easier to find "fair" PVP in that way. I agree encounter could end to be 10:1 too, and that fine. And after all, something to stir the things up after a while is needed, compared to other MMO games Eve changes very little over time, and at a slow pace. Other games have frequent patches, and rebalances in them overall arent harmful, but the opposite as players need to adapt to them.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2012-09-09 07:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Nestara Aldent wrote:
And after all, something to stir the things up after a while is needed, compared to other MMO games Eve changes very little over time, and at a slow pace. Other games have frequent patches, and rebalances in them overall arent harmful, but the opposite as players need to adapt to them.

I agree that sometimes "things need to be stirred up" from time to time... but "balancing" too often causes instability in various ways that may or may not be benign.

Remember... ship building, resource harvesting, logistics, and marketeering are all done by the players and are all heavily affected whenever a ship/module/weapon/ammo has its stats changed even by a few percentage points. Even mission running affects the market by introducing new ISK (via bounties) and by giving people access to mods/ships that are not available anywhere else in the game.

Like my signature says... change is isn't bad, but it isn't always good. You alter one mechanic and it will most definitely affect something else for better or worse. That's why it's nearly impossible to look at one issue without including a few other ones.
Astroniomix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-09-09 18:26:52 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Well I still think it would be easier to find "fair" PVP in that way. I agree encounter could end to be 10:1 too, and that fine. And after all, something to stir the things up after a while is needed, compared to other MMO games Eve changes very little over time, and at a slow pace. Other games have frequent patches, and rebalances in them overall arent harmful, but the opposite as players need to adapt to them.

EVE doesn't need to change it's mechanics around constantly. The whole point of EVE is that players provide the change that keeps things interesting. CCP just gives us new stuff to play with every 6 months.
Spr09
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-09-09 19:41:16 UTC
So you're saying that we should change it so that people can get ganked running missions in highsec without concord coming in? And make it so that if we have standings with a pirate faction that they won't attack me? Let's add some more "flavor" that eve lacks by making the missions broadcast the timer's up in your mission.

While we're at it, let's just remove concord from highsec and make the players be the driving police force.

On a serious note, no. Not everyone can make money by going into nullsec, and not everyone enjoys the lifestyle. Mission running at high levels takes a lot of training and time for a relatively small amount of isk. Especially since new people who might take too long to run a mission would be hit hard by this and be turned away from eve. Your post looks like you just want to make it so that you get standings with a pirate faction and camp missions until a timer runs down, and you can get an easy kill.
Franka Steinberg
Enterprise Allemande 108
#12 - 2012-10-21 08:36:52 UTC
Ever thought about it: some people like to play EVE like a mmo farm game or PATRICIAN online. I am one of them. It fills me with wonder when someone assumes, everyone in the game desperately wants to be a pirate. NOOOOO! Some Industrials want to make ISK not war. They dont want to "play" with the troublemakers. The place in the universe where we players live is called New Eden - and not same old hell...

** **"[b]I am an alien, I am a legal alien"  (Sting) [/b]

Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#13 - 2012-10-21 22:55:08 UTC
Franka Steinberg wrote:
Ever thought about it: some people like to play EVE like a mmo farm game or PATRICIAN online. I am one of them. It fills me with wonder when someone assumes, everyone in the game desperately wants to be a pirate. NOOOOO! Some Industrials want to make ISK not war. They dont want to "play" with the troublemakers. The place in the universe where we players live is called New Eden - and not same old hell...


They're allowed. But game is PVP in nature. Market PVP is even more brutal than PVP with ships because you can lose much much more. And evading PVP is a form of PVP as well.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#14 - 2012-10-22 00:59:14 UTC


the OP is very complex and is based on an area that i dont think needs any improvement. its up to the player to make his own storyline, and he has to compete or work with other players to get it.

missioning is a grind for isk, and as much as it might be nice to make it more interesting, i believe it should also serve as a quick and easy isk maker. Mining cannot be the only way to make a quick buck (especially as its not an isk source itself)

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs