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How Would You Change Nullsec?
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Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2012-10-21 15:33:28 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

But hey, pat yourself on the back for doing lots more work than I have to, to achieve exactly the same result, at a higher price!

Zimmy baby. I've refuted the BS argument about indy in 0.0. It CAN be done. It IS done.

It is ALSO done in highsec - by many - EXACTLY the same way - and profitably.

Issues about YOU being trusted in your corp is for YOU to sort and the fact that ALL the people YOU know do it in stations says everything about the the people you know and less about the task.

450m, 500m, 1b isk - whatever. It's monopoly money. How much you lose on a gank? Oh right. NOTHING. It's paid for. How much you lose on CTA's - oh right, nothing. It's paid for. You got plenty of money unless you spend more time tickling little digits in a spreadsheet than just DOING it.

TRY WORKING FOR YOUR ISK LIKE MOST HIGHSEC PEOPLE DO.

And POS costs. 450m a month!!! **** off. PI is passive and a half a day with a couple of mates mining hard will do a month of fuel. What are you paying yourself, 50m isk a minute or you using the NEW interdiction prices for your spreadsheet? lolz.

And "must have" 30 day production line!! What?!??! What are we talking about here, 20 seconds to start a job every couple of days. ffs!!

Your excuses for being a lazy SOB are just that - excuses.

Keep bringing it. If anyone is even remotely interested in this topic now - they can now start to see the BS it always was. Best you stop and save yourself the indignity of looking more stupid.

Whatever, just get yer hand off it. Roll


this right here is the greatest quote in all of pubbiedom

hahaha oh my god

you are so goddamn poor

and it's because you're so, so dumb

this is glorious

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#142 - 2012-10-21 15:52:36 UTC
- Instant local is a system upgrade.
- Roaming gangs can "burn" upgrades (maybe a FW complex system, though that's horrible any way) So when people roam into your space you actually have to go and fight instead of dock and wait until they move on. If you don't fight them they can screw up your system.
- More upgrades and options to make it feel like your own empires space (gate/station guns)
- More reason to be self reliant and not return to empire for all your shopping
- Meaningful trade routes between alliances or neutrals.
- Ability to higher agents for your stations which others can use (most use in NRDS space)

Generally make it FEEL like HighSec but player run. Currently NullSec is just a dead wasteland, whilst Empire feels like a sci-fi sim game where people are trading, random fights break out, crime happens.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Ginger Barbarella
#143 - 2012-10-21 15:55:27 UTC
This topic again?!?!?

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#144 - 2012-10-21 15:59:36 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
This topic again?!?!?


yeah .. this topic again.

but as usual it's being approached from the "nerf highsec angle" so I can't take it seriously.
Ginger Barbarella
#145 - 2012-10-21 16:18:26 UTC
Muffini wrote:
-Add pirate faction police and roaming CONCORD gangs who kill everyone in system

-Increase fuel cost of moon mining by 350% also cut their fuel bay by 350%

-Randomly reorder where the gates lead whenever there is a dust storm

-Add dust storms which affect entire constellations and drain all ships capacitors to 0%


Trolling non-sense aside, I've been asking for tougher rats across all parts of Eve for years. I absolutely LOVE the idea of roaming NPC pirate gangs, as long as they had teeth and could play by the same rules that we do (insert "NPCs cheat" mantra here). Gimme Cruiser and BC rats in .5 and .6 space, and the occassional rare BS rat in belts frequented by miners. Give them a chance to form up and fight for something (I doubt that would happen, but whatever).

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#146 - 2012-10-21 16:24:06 UTC
I do all of my work in null. Research, invention, manufacturing, buying, and selling.

Most of the problems with indy aren't a null specific one, and a lot of it is more to do with the clicks than it does the ability to do it. If you have to use a PoS to do indy in null, you're corp or your alliance is ****. Some things are obviously going to require a PoS, but for general manufacturing and such, you should be able to do it in a station no problem.

More slots would be nice, but I don't think that's a huge issues. Knowing whether or not I can actually build what I want in a specific station is more of an issue than the number of slots available. It would be nice to be able to tell what lines are reserved for what type of manufacturing a little easier than it currently is. Or to be able to easily determine through the station services, while looking on the map, what I can build in each station. Indy isn't something I would describe as user friendly.

We have a lot of stations not being utilized for building stuff in Dek.

I'm assuming that when people talk about free manufacturing in high sec they're talking about building from a PoS? If so, how in the world is that "free"? Is there no cost associated with building a PoS?

The cost to manufacture in high sec needs to be raised, or corps need to be able to create considerably more slots in stations with no production cost. I would prefer the former over the later as it would increase the cost of goods in high sec, which would benefit null industrialists.

Instead of having 20 or 30, or whatever number it is, lines in a high sec station all with the same cost, I wouldn't mind if the minimum cost started at 5000 install with 2500 hour for a few of the lines and then increased costs for the rest. Spread high sec manufacturing out more, and increase competition for the best manufacturing slots in high sec.

Most everything else is an ease of use issue I think. The ability to quickly and easily see what is what and the number of clicks it takes to get from A to B in the building process.

I also want corps to be able to install mission agents in null stations so that people that live in null have some PvE they can do where they live, after all of the consumable content has already been done.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#147 - 2012-10-21 16:37:03 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I'm assuming that when people talk about free manufacturing in high sec they're talking about building from a PoS?
No, we're talking about stations, which are so plentiful as to need no expenditure to increase the amount of accessible slots and so cheap as to be a decimal rounding error. Install costs for NPC station slots are effectively nil.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#148 - 2012-10-21 16:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I'm assuming that when people talk about free manufacturing in high sec they're talking about building from a PoS?
No, we're talking about stations, which are so plentiful as to need no expenditure to increase the amount of accessible slots and so cheap as to be a decimal rounding error. Install costs for NPC station slots are effectively nil.


hisec slot pricing could probably definately do with a review.
as an isk sink it's never been that effective, which i guess would have been the original intent for those fees?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#149 - 2012-10-21 16:57:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I'm assuming that when people talk about free manufacturing in high sec they're talking about building from a PoS?
No, we're talking about stations, which are so plentiful as to need no expenditure to increase the amount of accessible slots and so cheap as to be a decimal rounding error. Install costs for NPC station slots are effectively nil.


See that's where I would sort of disagree.

Production costs in general, regardless of where you're doing it is cheap enough as to be more of a decimal rounding error. My production costs in VFK have no impact on the cost of my goods, or so rarely that I don't even factor it into my final costs.

It just happens to be considerably cheaper in high sec.

VFK has only 5 slots with 0 production costs, and about a dozen more that are just about at high sec levels, with the rest being higher than any station I've seen in high sec. However, even the highest costing lines in VFK are still a nonfactor when determining the final cost of goods.


I see a problem as far as the ability to mass produce in high sec and than import to null. Why build something that the pubies in high sec are selling at near production cost, when you can just import that item to sell in null and save your materials to build stuff that you can't import.

Raising production costs in high sec should raise the price of goods, and a drastic reduction in available lines across all stations in high sec should help to slow some of the overproduction in high sec that leads to drastically reduced prices; which may help to close a bit of the gap in pricing between high and null.

I feel that materials should be the primary source of importing and exporting between null and high. Null sec should have developed supply lines for things like low end minerals and salvage to come out of high sec and high ends moving out of null. This may mean actually having to increase the demand of high end minerals in high sec. However, this would be a drastic undertaking as CCP would have to go in and adjust the mineral requirements of basically every item, making high ends needed in pretty much all T1 production.


PS: It seems strange that the place were you need the most production, it's actually set up so that mass production isn't as worthwile. Even with considerably more people playing in high, null still sees more stuff getting blown up. Yet it's high sec that actually is priced to support mass production of goods. That just seems a little backwards to me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#150 - 2012-10-21 17:09:06 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
See that's where I would sort of disagree.

Production costs in general, regardless of where you're doing it is cheap enough as to be more of a decimal rounding error. My production costs in VFK have no impact on the cost of my goods, or so rarely that I don't even factor it into my final costs.

It just happens to be considerably cheaper in high sec.
Well, sure. It's a question of how many epsilons there are in a delta.

It's still the combination of the two: the irrelevant cost of the slot and the non-existing need to spend money on additional slots. Each on their own might have been workably, but both combined just makes the situation silly.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#151 - 2012-10-21 17:13:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
See that's where I would sort of disagree.

Production costs in general, regardless of where you're doing it is cheap enough as to be more of a decimal rounding error. My production costs in VFK have no impact on the cost of my goods, or so rarely that I don't even factor it into my final costs.

It just happens to be considerably cheaper in high sec.
Well, sure. It's a question of how many epsilons there are in a delta.

It's still the combination of the two: the irrelevant cost of the slot and the non-existing need to spend money on additional slots. Each on their own might have been workably, but both combined just makes the situation silly.

agreed
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#152 - 2012-10-21 19:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Grath Telkin wrote:

You are absolutely the first person to ever step up and say that 0.0 manufacturing is fine, and I'm sorry to tell you that in this case, when you say the sky is green and everybody else tells you its blue, you happen to be wrong, and not just "special".

An unfair and incorrect assessment.

I was arguing the BS that it CAN'T be done - in the context that it's not the massive HF that's CAUSING 0.0 exodus/lack of recruiting it's being claimed to be.

It's about people whining saying something can't be done or it's too expensive or it's too hard or it's this or it's that. I'm stating it CAN be done and the costs are NOT that disproportionate IF NO OTHER SOLUTION EXISTS.

That's the context it was put in and I see quite clearly that the context is NOT being included to refute my statements.

I gave examples to stomp the BS being propogated - NOT that 0.0 indy should/should not be improved and I have stated that clearly - yes it can and probably should.

The QUESTION being debated is would it be the panacea to get people BACK into or RETAINED in null. I dispute that it would because most 0.0 chars already have indy setup in highsec on indy chars.

You need to ask, WHO exactly is going to move to 0.0 to start producing that isn't already there?

You said yourself that a LARGE part of production for 0.0 IS done in highsec and I'd venture that it probably STILL would be - for quite some time - even with a 0.0 indy buff.

MY motivation: Get yer hands OFF highsec to make 0.0 better. Just fix 0.0 already. WHATEVER it takes. No-one is gonna believe you if all you do is BS and whine the argument to death.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2012-10-21 19:55:20 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
I was arguing the BS that it CAN'T be done.

Nobody said this.

Touval Lysander wrote:
I never said 0.0 is FINE. I also said it's not the massive HF that's CAUSING 0.0 exodus/lack of recruiting it's being claimed to be.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you whining on and on about how people just weren't doing it because they were lazy, when the counterarguments were that it was more economical, both time-wise and isk-wise to do it in hisec in a station (also :laffo: at your "people manufacture profitably in hisec POSes all the time!" statement as well), was because you thought 0.0 industry was fine.

Touval Lysander wrote:
MY motivation: Get yer hands OFF highsec to make 0.0 better. Just fix 0.0 already. WHATEVER it takes. No-one is gonna believe you if all you do is BS and whine the argument to death.

Fixing nullsec logically involves doing some minor changes to hisec as well. I'm sorry if you can't, or won't, see this.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#154 - 2012-10-21 20:04:31 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
No you haven't, all you've proven is that you personally don't understand how a business fucntions and that you personally have wasted HUNDREDS of man hours and probably millions of isk doing a job inefficeintly.

And in maintaining consistency in refuting BS.

I do understand how business works. (Been doing it all my life and I am a wealthy man - semi-retired < 50)

I digress....

Nobody figured or argued in what the POS's would PRODUCE - in the form of PASSIVE INCOME - while this very production I speak of occurs.

If done right - the cost to produce at a POS in 0.0 would be EVEN CHEAPER than producing in a highsec station.

But we definitely don't want to consider ALL POINTS in the argument as long as we can just ***** at me.

And before somebody waxes lyrically about CURRENT ice price to do the numbers - let's be fair and state the NORMAL market price for ice, not the artifically inflated one we currently "enjoy".

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#155 - 2012-10-21 20:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
I was arguing the BS that it CAN'T be done.

Nobody said this.

YOU threw so many BS arguments AGAINST it being possible that it may as well be.

Quote:
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you whining on and on about how people just weren't doing it because they were lazy, when the counterarguments were that it was more economical, both time-wise and isk-wise to do it in hisec in a station (also :laffo: at your "people manufacture profitably in hisec POSes all the time!" statement as well), was because you thought 0.0 industry was fine.

A tactical deconstruction of my point. Not very clever.

IF NO OTHER SOLUTION EXISTS - it IS LAZINESS if it's not being done. And the "economics" of it have just been stomped on as well since you want to maintain the bitchiness.

Quote:
Fixing nullsec logically involves doing some minor changes to hisec as well. I'm sorry if you can't, or won't, see this.

You're playing the have/have not game which has NOTHING to do with the problem. For it to be true you're saying that making highsec production more expensive will "fix null indy". No it won't. It will remain the same problem with everything more costly.

Claiming "logically" as being irrefutable is no more than a POV - it doesn't make it correct.

The fix is to create more slots to allow people who ALREADY LIVE THERE to remove the neccessity to use highsec space. As stated, it will do NOTHING towards reducing exodus.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#156 - 2012-10-21 20:16:49 UTC
[/Me sighs...]

Even Tippia can no longer save this thread, and that makes meh haz a sad :(

Mods, please lock.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2012-10-21 20:19:06 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
I do understand how business works. (Been doing it all my life and I am a wealthy man - semi-retired < 50)

Funny how you're spending a full month doing what I spent a few hours on, tops, then.

Touval Lysander wrote:
Nobody figured or argued in what the POS's would PRODUCE - in the form of PASSIVE INCOME - while this very production I speak of occurs.

Let's talk opportunity costs. While you're mining ice, you could've been doing a whole lot of other things which would yield more income, or you could've been logged off and be doing things in real life which is more important. You could've had a smaller POS on the moon and just run a moon miner and maybe a simple reaction, and increased your profits by a fair margin through saved fuel.

There's a ton of reasons why more than 80% of the ships manufactured in eve is manufactured in ... wait for it ... hisec. You just blatantly ignore them.

Touval Lysander wrote:
But we definitely don't want to consider ALL POINTS in the argument as long as we can just ***** at me.

I see you've decided to completely ignore this metric, then:
Number of moons in deklein: 2994
Number of people in GSF: 8873
Number of people in TNT: 1267

Total number of moons required if everyone should have their own POS: 10140.

This scales well.

Touval Lysander wrote:
And before somebody waxes lyrically about CURRENT ice price to do the numbers - let's be fair and state the NORMAL market price for ice, not the artifically inflated one we currently "enjoy".

The only one bitching about the current ice price, is you. The cheapest large POS is still 350 mill pr month, and that is a non-interdicted price, which is ice you must either import or make yourself (at great expense time-wise, time which I spend being logged off or doing other moneymaking activities).

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#158 - 2012-10-21 20:22:59 UTC
Andski wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
You calling King Rothgar a highseccer just about confirms that I was correct in knowing you were full of crap every time I read one of your posts. Rothgar used to post some very interesting D-Scan/Probe Fu tips for hunting out other players that pretty much saved my ships, and I had a few scrapes with some of his old crew in the Parts system. He's no highseccer.


if only killboard stats made his ideas valid :(


If only being a goon made your ideas valid, you self-righteous two-penny washed-up has-been. Oh, hey, waitaminnit....(irony/cynicism)

**** off, troll.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2012-10-21 20:23:17 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
YOU threw so many BS arguments AGAINST it being possible that it may as well be.

But I didn't, yet you claim I did. vOv

Touval Lysander wrote:
IF NO OTHER SOLUTION EXISTS - it IS LAZINESS if it's not being done. And the "economics" of it have just been stomped on as well since you want to maintain the bitchiness.

I've no idea where you've gotten the "the economics of it have just been stomped on", since you haven't gotten close to stomping on the argument in any way, shape or form.

Touval Lysander wrote:
You're playing the have/have not game which has NOTHING to do with the problem. For it to be true you're saying that making highsec production more expensive will "fix null indy". No it won't. It will remain the same problem with everything more costly.

I see you've got some packetloss in your argument module, since you've suddenly completely dropped the "buff null" aspect of the aspect. Nobody is saying "making hisec production more expensive will fix null indy all on its own", so I'd love to know where you got this idea from.

Touval Lysander wrote:
The fix is to create more slots to allow people who ALREADY LIVE THERE to remove the neccessity to use highsec space. As stated, it will do NOTHING towards reducing exodus.

Oh hey, you found the packet again, pity you lost the other packet.

I've told you why there must be both a buff to nullsec and a slight nerf to hisec, I'm not going to explain it yet again. You'd probably just forget it again anyways. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Imports Plus
Doomheim
#160 - 2012-10-21 20:23:39 UTC