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Nerf Moaning Null Bears PLS

Author
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#41 - 2012-10-18 11:49:44 UTC
F'elch wrote:

OK then this is a farily compelling argument. And I forgot to mention, I also do low sec exploration. This has resulted in several lost ships and also in my plexes being intruded upon by people who have nicked the nice loot drops. Well, that's low sec and that's the way it goes, no worries.

But then I'm like, OK, I've spent all day doing these plexes and getting the escalations and now it is for nothing. So, I can't afford my PVP ships so I need to grind some more. Where am I going to go? High sec. Guaranteed income, low to zero risk, and I haven't wasted my Sunday afternoon.



Well thank you for admitting my argument is good. I mean I know it's good because it's mine, but it's always nice to hear it off someone else Blink

Seriously though, say the average person loses 1 ship a month ratting in Null. They should make at least the same money as someone who spent the month in high sec AFTER the ship loss is taken into account, which means they need to earn more money as a base factor. If you are good enough to not lose any ships ratting in null sec you'll make a chunk more more then High Sec, but there's the key fact, I said "if you are good". L4 mission running takes a good fit but then basically 0 skill, just ask my dual repping Apocalypse.



Quote:
Let's face it, as you say, low sec IS a PVP arena. But I also ask what is wrong with that? If everyone there is there for PVP then no easy ganks, you need skills to win, you need to put ISK into your ship to make it effective. If I tried to make all my ISK in low sec it would take a VERY long time to get the same money I would in high sec as you are constantly trying to avoid other players.


The problem is that there is a lot more Low and Null then there is High. If everyone spends 90% of their time in High and 10% of their time in Low/Null, you do the maths and figure out how likely it is anyone will ever bump into each other in the 4000 odd star systems that make it up.

You should be able to self sustain yourself in Low fairly easily. Imo it should be where all the rogues, bounty hunters and general anti-social (game wise) people live, fight and survive where it's easy to keep yourself going in PvP ships but to be able to field anything expensive you need to be REALLY good at fighting.

Null should be where the average person rats or whatever in relative (note not complete, null will never be complete) safety, right up until the neighbouring empire decides to invade you and suddenly everyone is called to the front line to fight a long and gruelling war to keep your home and way of life. After the war is done you retire back onto your "farm".... until the next war anyway.

If you're making all your money in High Sec and then spending 10% of your time in Low/Null then you can call neither your home, you don't feel the need to defend it and you're not presenting extra PvP targets for opportunists. This is bad as it means less PvP in general as the gang that ganks 1 mission runner often ends up fighting an actual gang because their location is reported.

Ravnik wrote:
Cant people just quit moaning about what the other side are doing? You wanna live in null, do it. You wanna live in low, do it. You wanna live in high, do it. Just stop whining that the other has it better than you. If you think the grass is greener, then go move there ffs


See this is the small minded and ignorant opinion that taints so many people in High Sec. Players in Null know how big of an impact High/Low/Null have on each other because certain alliances frequently purposefully exploit these dependencies. Players in Null nearly all have Jita alts or mining alts or whatever to supplment their null lifestyle (you can argue they shouldnt need to be thats a different story). People in high sec don't generally get that what happens in High effects Low and Null and vice versa.

I know you don't get it because if you did you'd realise why players from Low/Null are so annoyed at High Sec players recently, it's not "gankers moaning about high sec safety nerfs because they can't gank" it's Null and Low sec people getting annoyed because extra safety on an already impressive income is just making it less appealing for people to actually live in the areas of the game that create emergent gameplay.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Rollin Forties
School of Applied Street Knowledge
#42 - 2012-10-18 12:00:05 UTC
F'elch wrote:
Rollin Forties wrote:
I wanted to report the OPs name as offensive, but I don't have the game installed. Can I create a petition on the forums?

Uh... it's a name. If this is an attempt to annoy me, it won't work. This is my trading alt. Makes no matter to me if he's called F'elch or Gallente Citizen 1209173465680.


I'm not trying to annoy you, I think you're another entitled baby asking for his bottle. Also pretty sick naming yourself after the act of drinking sploog out of a rectum. Just another kid crying and trying to get a reaction....Roll
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#43 - 2012-10-18 12:07:13 UTC
I'm sure threads like this one make developers happy because instead of asking for new features players pointlessly fight with each other.

Maybe instead of asking to make everyone around un-happy you better ask for new content - it might work sooner or later.

(Though the only time I've seen developers asking for players' opinions was thread about "new station environment" in Retribution video where developer accidentally asked "do you want new interiors like that?" and got few pages of "yes!!!!!").
F'elch
Wall Street Trading
#44 - 2012-10-18 12:09:02 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
F'elch wrote:
Why all the hate for high sec? You know how I use high sec? I run missions there and I sell my stuff there so I can spend the ISK on ships and then go PVP with them


Funny, F'elch has no kills on eve-kill or battleclinic. Well not true. You have one kill.

You remember the bit about posting with your main, right? Otherwise you have absolutely zero idea of what you are talking about kid.

Yeah that's a fair point. I don't use my main on the forums. Never have, never will.

Nothing I can really do to defend that or to convince people of my experience so I won't bother.

Really? I have one kill? I don't remember this character ever undocking.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2012-10-18 12:12:10 UTC
TheSkeptic wrote:
Just putting this out there, but maybe the real problem isn't so much the hi-sec dwellers, but how many blues you have and how risk averse you are yourself?

As an example: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Branch/UQ9-3C#npc24

With the exceptions of 1IX, W-4 and C-4 (station systems) not much ratting/isk making is going on outside of the dead end systems that are easy to lock down with bubbled entry points.

And it's not all about true sec either, take BKG for example, station system -0.67 (29 NPC kills - at post time) and compare that with C-4, also a station system -0.65 (3345 NPC kills - at post time) The difference is 4 entry points to BKG vs 2 for C-4 (4, but ignore the secured pocket and single dead end)

So what you really want is your nullsec isk printing safe havens, and then easy access to a target rich environment of noobs to shoot when you feel like PVP.

tl:dr;
hi-sec dwellers aren't the problem, the size of your blue list is


thank you for the npc alt post that is of the usual npc alt post caliber

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Ravnik
Infinate Horizon
#46 - 2012-10-18 12:15:23 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
F'elch wrote:

OK then this is a farily compelling argument. And I forgot to mention, I also do low sec exploration. This has resulted in several lost ships and also in my plexes being intruded upon by people who have nicked the nice loot drops. Well, that's low sec and that's the way it goes, no worries.

But then I'm like, OK, I've spent all day doing these plexes and getting the escalations and now it is for nothing. So, I can't afford my PVP ships so I need to grind some more. Where am I going to go? High sec. Guaranteed income, low to zero risk, and I haven't wasted my Sunday afternoon.



Well thank you for admitting my argument is good. I mean I know it's good because it's mine, but it's always nice to hear it off someone else Blink

Seriously though, say the average person loses 1 ship a month ratting in Null. They should make at least the same money as someone who spent the month in high sec AFTER the ship loss is taken into account, which means they need to earn more money as a base factor. If you are good enough to not lose any ships ratting in null sec you'll make a chunk more more then High Sec, but there's the key fact, I said "if you are good". L4 mission running takes a good fit but then basically 0 skill, just ask my dual repping Apocalypse.



Quote:
Let's face it, as you say, low sec IS a PVP arena. But I also ask what is wrong with that? If everyone there is there for PVP then no easy ganks, you need skills to win, you need to put ISK into your ship to make it effective. If I tried to make all my ISK in low sec it would take a VERY long time to get the same money I would in high sec as you are constantly trying to avoid other players.


The problem is that there is a lot more Low and Null then there is High. If everyone spends 90% of their time in High and 10% of their time in Low/Null, you do the maths and figure out how likely it is anyone will ever bump into each other in the 4000 odd star systems that make it up.

You should be able to self sustain yourself in Low fairly easily. Imo it should be where all the rogues, bounty hunters and general anti-social (game wise) people live, fight and survive where it's easy to keep yourself going in PvP ships but to be able to field anything expensive you need to be REALLY good at fighting.

Null should be where the average person rats or whatever in relative (note not complete, null will never be complete) safety, right up until the neighbouring empire decides to invade you and suddenly everyone is called to the front line to fight a long and gruelling war to keep your home and way of life. After the war is done you retire back onto your "farm".... until the next war anyway.

If you're making all your money in High Sec and then spending 10% of your time in Low/Null then you can call neither your home, you don't feel the need to defend it and you're not presenting extra PvP targets for opportunists. This is bad as it means less PvP in general as the gang that ganks 1 mission runner often ends up fighting an actual gang because their location is reported.

Ravnik wrote:
Cant people just quit moaning about what the other side are doing? You wanna live in null, do it. You wanna live in low, do it. You wanna live in high, do it. Just stop whining that the other has it better than you. If you think the grass is greener, then go move there ffs


See this is the small minded and ignorant opinion that taints so many people in High Sec. Players in Null know how big of an impact High/Low/Null have on each other because certain alliances frequently purposefully exploit these dependencies. Players in Null nearly all have Jita alts or mining alts or whatever to supplment their null lifestyle (you can argue they shouldnt need to be thats a different story). People in high sec don't generally get that what happens in High effects Low and Null and vice versa.

I know you don't get it because if you did you'd realise why players from Low/Null are so annoyed at High Sec players recently, it's not "gankers moaning about high sec safety nerfs because they can't gank" it's Null and Low sec people getting annoyed because extra safety on an already impressive income is just making it less appealing for people to actually live in the areas of the game that create emergent gameplay.


Ive been in low, and null and high. Its null sec players like you that think you are better than everyone else and think you can dictate to everyone else how the game should be? Why is that then?

The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly..........

Anslo
Scope Works
#47 - 2012-10-18 12:16:01 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You don't pvp. Sometimes, you spare enough from your wallet to fit a frigate and see what all the fuss is about, but you don't pvp. You run missions and farm plexes in your stabbed Incursus, but you don't pvp. Your whole reason for existence in this game is to see that number in the wallet window grow larger and larger.

You're not fooling anyone.


So what? Eve isn't about pvp, it's a sandbox. He wants to mission? Let him mission.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

F'elch
Wall Street Trading
#48 - 2012-10-18 12:16:40 UTC
And another thing. I don't get all the null sec elitism. We're all playing an internet spaceships game on our computers, sat on our chairs, pressing keys and clicking a mouse. How can any of it be more hardcore than anything else? None of it is important or relevant to anything any one of us does in real life. It's like COD players who think they can shoot or something.
Anslo
Scope Works
#49 - 2012-10-18 12:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
Andski wrote:
TheSkeptic wrote:
Just putting this out there, but maybe the real problem isn't so much the hi-sec dwellers, but how many blues you have and how risk averse you are yourself?

As an example: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Branch/UQ9-3C#npc24

With the exceptions of 1IX, W-4 and C-4 (station systems) not much ratting/isk making is going on outside of the dead end systems that are easy to lock down with bubbled entry points.

And it's not all about true sec either, take BKG for example, station system -0.67 (29 NPC kills - at post time) and compare that with C-4, also a station system -0.65 (3345 NPC kills - at post time) The difference is 4 entry points to BKG vs 2 for C-4 (4, but ignore the secured pocket and single dead end)

So what you really want is your nullsec isk printing safe havens, and then easy access to a target rich environment of noobs to shoot when you feel like PVP.

tl:dr;
hi-sec dwellers aren't the problem, the size of your blue list is


thank you for the npc alt post that is of the usual npc alt post caliber


He's right though, alt or not. Your NAP alliances bore you because you're too afraid to just try to blow everyone up, lest your wallet sinks. So, you demand high sec nerfage and kicking carebears out to nul because "the game is meant to be played that way." With that revelation of problem solving, you finally are able to pad your killboards. It's like the rich and wealthy demanding the poor to die in the pits of the coliseum of old for their pleasure.

Wrong.

Personal attack removed - CCP Falcon

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-10-18 12:24:35 UTC
Andski wrote:

thank you for the npc alt post that is of the usual npc alt post caliber


thank you for adding nothing of value like all your other posts Roll

...

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#51 - 2012-10-18 12:31:37 UTC
There is not hate for high sec, it serves a purpose as a stable trading zone.

The "hate" is for people who come into the game, find out they don't like the things that make up the COREand SPIRIT of the game (pvp in various forms, rough and unforgiving competition, people trying to extract tears for other human being ect) and rather than leave and go find a theme park game more to their liking come on the fourms and moan about everything....usually in the form of a "the game would get more subs if (insert game killing BS here)".

I don't care if people never leave high sec, I care about the overall health of the game, and people pumping isk and materials into the game while lsing nothing and taking no risk....too much of that is just bad for the game. This is why CCP tries to get people to pew pew, consumption is vital.



F'elch wrote:


Anyway, I'm a casual player. No time for null and the logistics of living there so ISK grinding there is not an option. And to be honest I CBA with CTA, killboard etc so it is not for me.

All I want to do is PVP and grind as little as possible to make that happen. High sec ISK sources are important to help me and others like me fund that lifestyle so please don't nerf them.


This is the problem, why people hate high sec dwellers, that sense of entitlement.

What you say here is like saying in real life "dude, I want to be well off and have nice things like a big house, 4 cars and the ability to send my 5 kids to private school and college without getting financial aide, but I don't want to work a full time job, go to school, or do anything that is even slightly unpleasant".........
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#52 - 2012-10-18 12:32:50 UTC
Nerfing bear-ish activities (missions, mining, etc) wouldn't help anything, bears gonna bear.

What WOULD help is reducing the 'safety' in hisec. Make high sec harsher than it is, bring it to somewhere in the middle of current highsec and lowsec. The reason the bears never leave is because they're scared little bears, they don't want to lose a pixel spaceship. Lowering the 'safety' of highsec would allow them to acclimatise to pvp, the occasional loss, etc - thats what they need to get over, their fear and inexperience.

Unfortunately, CCP are dead set on doing the exact opposite - they're making hisec a hello kitty online haven for wowtards and bears. Incursions, insane mining barge buffs, war dec changes, making something like stealing from a can a global criminal offense, all of failwatch 2.0 basically... it's all the exact wrong direction. It'll exacerbate the divide between bears and low/null/wh players
Anslo
Scope Works
#53 - 2012-10-18 12:35:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Jenn aSide wrote:

F'elch wrote:


Anyway, I'm a casual player. No time for null and the logistics of living there so ISK grinding there is not an option. And to be honest I CBA with CTA, killboard etc so it is not for me.

All I want to do is PVP and grind as little as possible to make that happen. High sec ISK sources are important to help me and others like me fund that lifestyle so please don't nerf them.


This is the problem, why people hate high sec dwellers, that sense of entitlement.

What you say here is like saying in real life "dude, I want to be well off and have nice things like a big house, 4 cars and the ability to send my 5 kids to private school and college without getting financial aide, but I don't want to work a full time job, go to school, or do anything that is even slightly unpleasant".........


Seriously?

Seriously now? We're bringing up entitlement?

Of course he's ******* entitled to do what he wants you stupid bullet eating bleach dyed bimbo ****, he paid for the gods damn game and he should be able to play as he see's fit.

This is a GAME. Not a god damn **** stain ******* JOB.

This whole "they're not entitled" bullshit pisses me off. I paid for x, I want x, not a part of it that you think I don't deserve, ALL of it. The barrier of entry is stupidly high for solo people who want to pvp in their spare time. Because not all of us can dedicate our damn LIVES to a pirate or nul alliances because we have jobs, spouses, kids, LIVES OUTSIDE OF EVE.

So don't go on that self entitled bullshit **** parade you tit. He paid for it, he should be able to experience it.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Unfortunately, CCP are dead set on doing the exact opposite - they're making hisec a hello kitty online haven for wowtards and bears. Incursions, insane mining barge buffs, war dec changes, making something like stealing from a can a global criminal offense, all of failwatch 2.0 basically... it's all the exact wrong direction. It'll exacerbate the divide between bears and low/null/wh players

So what? Some of us don't want to deal with your pvp crap. Deal with it.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#54 - 2012-10-18 12:39:07 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Additionally, comments about NAPfests and nullbears are fairly spot on too. If I had a penny for every time some greedy, terrible, risk averse little turd from 0.0 made idiotic demands to make his ratting/plexing 100% safe (as if bubbling gates + instant, infallible local doesn't make it safe enough)...

I mean just look at all those "wah wah there's a cloaked pilot in my ratting system" threads the nullbears make.
Rollin Forties
School of Applied Street Knowledge
#55 - 2012-10-18 12:41:43 UTC
Anyone who pays is ENTITLED to log in. If you don't like what happens after you log in, take your money elsewhere. Pretty simple right?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#56 - 2012-10-18 12:42:45 UTC
Anslo wrote:
he paid for the gods damn game and he should be able to play as he see's fit.

There's nothing stopping him from doing that.
Quote:
This whole "they're not entitled" bullshit pisses me off. I paid for x, I want x, not a part of it that you think I don't deserve, ALL of it.

And you have it.
Quote:
The barrier of entry is stupidly high for solo people who want to pvp in their spare time. Because not all of us can dedicate our damn LIVES to a pirate or nul alliances because we have jobs, spouses, kids, LIVES OUTSIDE OF EVE.

This is why we have skill queues and Rifters.
Quote:
So what? Some of us don't want to deal with your pvp crap. Deal with it.

Sadly for you, this is a PvP game whether you like it or not. Deal with it.
Anslo
Scope Works
#57 - 2012-10-18 12:44:36 UTC
Rollin Forties wrote:
Anyone who pays is ENTITLED to log in. If you don't like what happens after you log in, take your money elsewhere. Pretty simple right?


Wrong, suck on a grenade. An individual pays for service x. not 1/2 of x, not 1/4 of x, X, ALL of x, 1/1. I'm not saying people should be able to go in and immediately be able to take a swath of 0.0 at their whim.

But the fact the people say "you aren't entitled to pvp unless you're 100% dedicated to it" is almost the single stupidest thing (next to your comment) I've ever read.

Also post with your main.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#58 - 2012-10-18 12:47:56 UTC
Anslo wrote:
you aren't entitled to pvp unless you're 100% dedicated to it

I've never heard anyone say that and no-one is forcing you to join an alliance to experience PvP. Join Faction Warfare and get on the militia channel. You will find plenty of people willing to get you into a roaming gang.
Anslo
Scope Works
#59 - 2012-10-18 12:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Riot Girl wrote:
There's nothing stopping him from doing that.

No there isn't. He's doing as he wants and I'm glad. This is a sandbox. If he wants to kick up some dirt out in the badlands, let him enjoy it. My comment was directed at Jenna Side's bullshit idea that unless he's dedicated 100% of his time to pvp, he isn't entitled to anything and he's the "reason" why people hate high sec.

Quote:
And you have it.

Yes, he does. I should have clarified my rant a little more. Sorry about that!

Quote:
This is why we have skill queues and Rifters.

See above. Was more directed at JennaSides crap comment. Though I hope he has more than a rifter handy...

Quote:
Sadly for you, this is a PvP game whether you like it or not. Deal with it.

And this is where the similarities end. No, eve is not a pvp game, it is a SANDBOX game. Ask the devs, ask the ******* CEO. Eve is and always was meant to be the most all encompassing sci fi simulation sandbox to ever exist. A universe within a super computer in the middle of iceland tended to by drunken programmers with a penchant for sociopathic activities.

As for you saying "I've never heard anyone say that" in respects to pvp non-entitlement without 100% dedication, she did when talking to F'letch by saying;

Jenna Side wrote:
This is the problem, why people hate high sec dwellers, that sense of entitlement.

What you say here is like saying in real life "dude, I want to be well off and have nice things like a big house, 4 cars and the ability to send my 5 kids to private school and college without getting financial aide, but I don't want to work a full time job, go to school, or do anything that is even slightly unpleasant".........

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#60 - 2012-10-18 12:51:01 UTC
Anslo wrote:

Seriously?

Seriously now? We're bringing up entitlement?

Of course he's ******* entitled to do what he wants you stupid bullet eating bleach dyed bimbo ****, he paid for the gods damn game and he should be able to play as he see's fit.


No he should not...

He should be able to play it within the norms set by the game makers. If players were able to "play as they see fit" everyone would have I Win buttons.

Quote:

This is a GAME. Not a god damn **** stain ******* JOB.


EVE is to me more than a game, but a hobby. Hobbies aren't always easy.

Quote:

This whole "they're not entitled" bullshit pisses me off. I paid for x, I want x, not a part of it that you think I don't deserve, ALL of it. The barrier of entry is stupidly high for solo people who want to pvp in their spare time. Because not all of us can dedicate our damn LIVES to a pirate or nul alliances because we have jobs, spouses, kids, LIVES OUTSIDE OF EVE.


If you can't make time for a hobby, do something else. I have a wife, 3 kids and work in Law Enforcement, sometimes because of the mandatory overtime I end up with11-14 hours days.

And yet I can manage to have 4 accounts paid for with plex and characters all over EVE Space.

Just because you people can't figure out how to do things doesn't mean the game should suit your needs. YouAnslo somehow find the time to post and post and post and post, but somehow you're lacking time to play eve?

Quote:

So don't go on that self entitled bullshit **** parade you tit. He paid for it, he should be able to experience it.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Unfortunately, CCP are dead set on doing the exact opposite - they're making hisec a hello kitty online haven for wowtards and bears. Incursions, insane mining barge buffs, war dec changes, making something like stealing from a can a global criminal offense, all of failwatch 2.0 basically... it's all the exact wrong direction. It'll exacerbate the divide between bears and low/null/wh players

So what? Some of us don't want to deal with your pvp crap. Deal with it.


That's your right, yo don't have to deal with any pvp or any other kind of crap. As long as you understand that makes you a 2nd class citizen, it's all good. Know your place, those of us actually playing the game and contributing to the experience called EVE already know ours.