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Good target for PE (time) research?
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#1 - 2012-10-18 10:22:15 UTC
How much should I worry about PE research? ME makes intuitive sense to me, because I can see how you improve your profit margin by reducing materials waste.

But assuming I can find a station with reasonably pried manufacturing slots far from Jita (but still in high-sec), how important is PE? Is it just the same 10% waste divided by PE+1, so that at PE 3 it's 2.5% waste time, and at PE 9 it's 1% waste time? If yes, why not just researc all my BPOs to PE 10 and then forget about it after that?
Jack Mayhem
Kaer Industries
#2 - 2012-10-18 11:21:25 UTC
Salpad wrote:
How much should I worry about PE research? ME makes intuitive sense to me, because I can see how you improve your profit margin by reducing materials waste.

But assuming I can find a station with reasonably pried manufacturing slots far from Jita (but still in high-sec), how important is PE? Is it just the same 10% waste divided by PE+1, so that at PE 3 it's 2.5% waste time, and at PE 9 it's 1% waste time? If yes, why not just researc all my BPOs to PE 10 and then forget about it after that?


You are correct. Most of the stuff is not worth researching past PE10 or even PE5.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#3 - 2012-10-18 11:35:59 UTC
PE needs a buff, I never research PE.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#4 - 2012-10-18 11:38:28 UTC
Many manufacturing slots (no, I'm not going to use Caldari Navy - I'm sure theyr are all horribly queued up) cost 333.00 ISK, but what does that mean? 333 ISK per hour? Or something else?
Jack Mayhem
Kaer Industries
#5 - 2012-10-18 11:40:14 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
PE needs a buff, I never research PE.


Unless you are producing supercaps or caps (though for caps PE1-2 is still needed), you are doing it wrong.

PE is perfectly fine.
Jack Mayhem
Kaer Industries
#6 - 2012-10-18 11:41:29 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Many manufacturing slots (no, I'm not going to use Caldari Navy - I'm sure theyr are all horribly queued up) cost 333.00 ISK, but what does that mean? 333 ISK per hour? Or something else?


There is install cost, which is one-off, and usage cost - usually 333 ISK per hour. It's negligible anyway.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#7 - 2012-10-18 11:43:44 UTC
Jack Mayhem wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
PE needs a buff, I never research PE.


Unless you are producing supercaps or caps (though for caps PE1-2 is still needed), you are doing it wrong.

PE is perfectly fine.


The ships I build are considered capitals.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Gordena Gecko
Greed Ltd.
#8 - 2012-10-18 11:46:51 UTC
The formula for PE is different, i think its Production Time = Base time + (Base Waste)/(1 + PE)

Lets have a look how that works out. I will use EMP M Blueprint as example. Perfect ME is 80, how that is calculated you already know so i will skip that. I dont have access to market atm but with current Jita prices the manufacturing cost should be around 75 isk / unit. The Sell price should be around 110 isk/ unit, so your profit is 35 isk/unit.

The Base time for this blueprint is 4 minutes and the Base Waste is 60 seconds (25%). With the formula from above you get the following production times:

PE0 = 5 min Waste 60s
PE4 = 4 min 12s Waste 12s
PE8 = 4 min 6 s Waste 6s
PE30 = 4min 1s Waste 1s
PE60 = 4min Waste 0s

Perfect PE is 60 as you can see, researching above that is useless. For comparing the profits of a blueprint i always use profit per hour. You produce 100 EMP M per run, so the profit per run is 35isk * 100 = 3500 isk

PE0 = 300s build time --> 12 Runs / h --> 42000 isk / h
PE4 = 252s build time --> 14,28 --> 49980 isk / h + 19%
PE8 = 246s build time --> 14,63 --> 51205 isk / h + 22%
PE30=241s build time --> 14,93 --> 52280 isk / h + 24,5%
PE60=240s build time --> 15 Runs /h --> 52500 isk / h + 25% Profit /h

For short, if you research to perfect PE you will make 25% more isk per hour then without PE research. Of course there are items with different base waste %, for example fuel blocks with 66% ( 3minutes + 2 min waste). Its up to you to decide how much research time you in want to invest.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#9 - 2012-10-18 13:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
For PE > 0

Total time = productiontime*(1-(productionmodifier/productiontime)*(Blueprint PE/(1+Blueprint PE)))




For PE < 0

Total time = productiontime*(1-(productionmodifier/productiontime)*(Blueprint PE-1))



For EMP M:
Production time = 300
Production Modifier = 60

(all in the invBlueprintTypes)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Dasola
New Edens Freeports
#10 - 2012-10-18 13:48:18 UTC
Personally i have modules such as weapons, tanking mods, etc.. researched to PE=15, why 15? Dont really know, seems good fit to me somehow... Ships i seem to go for level 5 for some reaon.

We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do...
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2012-10-18 17:09:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Base time waste seems to be 25% for nearly everything. A notable exception being fuel blocks; I've not actually figured them out yet, save to say they require considerably less research than other BPO.

For BPO where you make a lot of runs, like ammo, it is often worth doing a fair amount of PE research. I aim for PE 60 for ammo, PE 120 for modules, PE 500 for R.A.M. (I consume lots of these), PE 2 for capitals, and PE 50 for most everything else (though I admit this last one is often excessive, PE research is a good way to improve an otherwise idle BPO).

PE research often takes longer than ME research.

Always weigh the research time vs. the production time saved, and how many runs it would take to recoup the time.

Consider a large control tower. It takes roughly a day to manufacture one, and PE +1 research takes about a month and saves a few hours. In order to recoup the research time, one would have to manufacture several hundred control towers.

PE research slots are plentiful in hisec.
Lucy Oreless
Rise of Rephaim
#12 - 2012-10-19 06:48:28 UTC
There is also worth mentioning for those planning on making copies for sale that people will tend to buy the BPC with the best PE (given price/ME is equal). So it can give you a slight market-advantage.

PS! This is based on own experience, no spreadsheets or crystal-balls Blink

 I did not have sexual relations to THAT woman....
Acid Kanshi
AIFAM
#13 - 2012-10-19 08:33:31 UTC
PE comes into play if you are doing mass production. Example you build around 500 different products with 50 manufacture slots, this means your 50 manufacture slots are constantly full and moderate queues on them. Then production time starts to play more significant role.

Most players are small time builders and don't feel PE effect.

EVE-Cost is a manufacturing tool for EVE players. http://www.eve-cost.eu
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#14 - 2012-10-19 12:12:48 UTC
5 minimum, 10 maximum

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Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
#15 - 2012-10-19 15:28:56 UTC
I typically just do about 10pe on my non capital blueprints. It seems to be a good average number for ship blueprints. I do it a bit different for non ship blueprints. But i may be over researching my non ship blueprints lol as i usually put 200 pe, guess it might have been a waste of time Lol.

I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart.
Ginger Barbarella
#16 - 2012-10-19 15:49:36 UTC
For my own uses or to build for market sales, PE means nothing to me. PE matters when you're selling BPOs or BPCs on the market to people who pay for such things.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Cipio Hakoke
Tactical Manufacturing Group
#17 - 2012-10-19 16:09:34 UTC
A lot of people in this forum seem miss-informed about the imoportance of PE as most people don't tend to max out their manufacturing slots 24/7 so time for them is not important. If you tend to max out your manufacturing slots, then you want to make the most isk per hour with each slot as possible. Your isk per hour will greatly increase with researched PE. I have found certain BPOs (which I will keep hidden) that a me 0 pe 1 will make more isk per hour than a me 1 pe 0.
Kithran
#18 - 2012-10-20 08:14:12 UTC
It also depends on what else you are doing.

E.G. you have a small pos (not caldari) with a couple of labs - you have 6 me slots total so if you can do more than 6 jobs and aren't doing anything at a station/another pos why not put some of your other bpos into PE research?

As to what is best to put PE research from one thing I would recommend is ammo - yes the time taken for a single run is small but its also the thing you will be building the stuff in runs of 1000+.
Backfyre
Hohmann Transfer
#19 - 2012-10-22 17:37:27 UTC
I use 24 for the BPOs I routinely use and at least 10 if I care at all. At 24, you only have a 1% time waste. That's about 15 minutes per 24 hour job.

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