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[Winter] Support Cruisers

First post First post
Author
Sieonigh
Aww-Yiss
#241 - 2012-09-23 15:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sieonigh
change the drone bonus to projected ECCM, this will good work around of nerfing ECM encouraging players to prepare for potential ECM. ECM still needs to be a game changer if the victims are not prepared.

as for all the whining about making T2 logi redundent, here is a few point on why this wont be the case.

# the focus of a balanced for for these ships is to be fitting med reps( large will only fit 1 maybe 2 and bork the fit, if you want to do that fine) ultimately its not going to overshadow to the rep capability of a 4 large rep logi.

# logi get T2 res reducing the need to fit more taking mods to get the desired tank, tec 1 will have to overcome the lack of this.

# sensor strength and scan res on T2 logi is better, T1 should be counter able with better ease, as to why you wanting to have a T2 ship to have a faster lock time to save lives.

#T2 tend to get better fitting allowing for grater flexibility, the T1 are going to have to make compromises to achieve their desired effect.


as for changes to the specs mentioned,

# max locked targets, reduce to 7 (nerf)
# main tank make a little more resistant, (Scythe and Exequror bump main tank to 1500 the other 2 have 1650) (Scythe seems lacking in hull) i ask for more tank to give new players more of a chance and a feeling of self worth. (buff)
# Scythe and Exequror are on par with the T2 logi i would reduce them by 10, 35 and 40 respectively this means that the ships can still field 5 drones just fewer replacements. (nerf)
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
#242 - 2012-09-26 16:39:24 UTC
This may be the most balance upsetting change we have seen. Logis are too strong, now you can have as many for your fleet as you like as everyone, there alt, and there dog will be able to fly one. its a great idea, but tune the stats down or you are going to see blobs everywhere.
Thaddeus Rees
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2012-09-27 14:41:53 UTC
So far, I think the proposed changes are fantastic.
It's long overdue that t1 cruisers could actually function as effective logistic substitutes.


One thing I'd like to request while you are doing this work, is that you make remote armor repair systems deliver armor at the start of the rep cycle, and not the end.

This is the defining reason shield logistics is more prevalent in large fleet actions, and currently has too large an advantage over armor....
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#244 - 2012-09-29 16:15:02 UTC
Malice Redeemer wrote:
This may be the most balance upsetting change we have seen. Logis are too strong, now you can have as many for your fleet as you like as everyone, there alt, and there dog will be able to fly one. its a great idea, but tune the stats down or you are going to see blobs everywhere.



It's a better game change than off grid boosting and active people is always better than afk POS kissing alts.
Then if someone else can bring T1 logisitc cruisers you should be able too, just make yourself more friends and less alts.

Players like me who really don't like healers in space job will not be flying those anyway or just once in time for lulz.

brb

Stegas Tyrano
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2012-10-06 00:14:12 UTC
Now that the scythe is losing it's Tracking Link bonus, will you introduce new logistics/support ships with different roles (like tracking link boosters)?

Herping your derp since 19Potato - [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2403364][Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts[/url]

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#246 - 2012-10-06 16:09:03 UTC
Stegas Tyrano wrote:
Now that the scythe is losing it's Tracking Link bonus, will you introduce new logistics/support ships with different roles (like tracking link boosters)?


mm.. perhaps tracking link and projected eccm range

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Jaiz Savvy
Doomheim
#247 - 2012-10-07 15:59:22 UTC
I really love these. As someone who trained up to Logi 5 and have most of the skills that matter to 5 so I could be the best Logi pilot possible I wish these had always been around.

To Solo Whiners: You mean 2 is more effective than one or are you implying that if you caught a single Logi ship you couldn't beat them? I do not understand why solo players in Eve come across as so entitled to their kills. Congrats on not bringing friends. I did. You lose. I win. Maybe I didn't bring Logi but my fleet's 5 DPS ships would like a word with your tank. Maybe I did bring Logi in which case "Hah Hah!" as your hurricane tries to break our tanks. Either way numbers matter. Logi is just another way they matter and numbers should matter. If you chose to go off into the wild black solo in a BC that is your decision. Just stop whining about blobs when you meet people who have friends.


Calsys wrote:
where you see basi w\ 4 LST?



Why would you use a Basi with less than 4? Basi and Guardian with Logi 4 can maintain 4 Large Reps with two Large Power Transfers. That is their advantage over the solo ones. They sacrifice working well solo for it.

Ex.

[Basilisk, Basi Fleet]
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

I actually hate this fit because I have Logi 5 and it ties up both of my large Regards to stay cap stable with everything on. Still, it is a fit I have seen used successfully many times. Since I already use T2 Logi I don't plan on using the T1 cruisers in most instances. Stop trying to argue they are equal to the T2s when they really really aren't. They are just a very solid stepping stone.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#248 - 2012-10-07 16:10:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
its odd to see so many large mods on a cruiser it feels wrong to me like they should really be using mediums.
and giving ridiculous 1000% bonus's on it shouldn't be happening it tells you the T2 logi are over bonused (and should be using medium reppers) for these T1's to need such a massive bonus to get anywhere near worth using.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Fidelium Mortis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#249 - 2012-10-08 19:38:47 UTC
Will these changes impact the faction variants, or will they remain the same for now?

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#250 - 2012-10-12 18:24:56 UTC
The faction variants filled a completely different role than the base T1 variant before, so why should that change now?
The Navy exeq was more like a thorax in usage... maybe they can change these to another hull model (like they did with the helios a while back, andd recently the SBs), based off the "tier 3" cruisers.


I agree that the drone bonus is lame
Suggestions:

Augoror:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
15% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount
5% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
1000% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers and Energy Transfers
200% bonus to Energy Transfer Array transfer amount

Exequror:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
15% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount
*** 5% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use-> 7.5% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use (or maybe even 10%)
Role Bonus:
1000% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers
*** 100% bonus to Logistic Drone (both armor and shield) rep amount -> no bonus

As with their T2 brethren, we'd have logi that should be in a cap chain, and logi that don't need to be in a cap chain

Then to the T2 logi, we can think about other things like ewar support as a secondary specialization on top of the repping: ECCM (Gallente, counters their caldari enemy), remote Sebo (Caldari, counters the gallente enemy, aids sniping), remote tracking links (minmatar, counters amarr tracking disruptors), ... uhh something to counter minmatar TPs?

Another thought is to make the exequor a shield and armor logi - Gallente Carriers, ie huge logis, have bonuses to shield and armor transfers.
I dislike them trying to shoe gallente into armor. Like minmatar, many gallente ships can be fit well for shields, many can be fit well for armor (yet they seem to insist on putting armor rep bonuses on the good gall shield boats)

T1 logis could go like so:
Caldari: Shield transfer bonus, energy transfer bonus
Amarr: Armor transfer bonus, energy transfer bonus
Gallente: Armor and shield transfer bonus
Minmatar: Shield transfer bonus, remote tracking link bonus
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#251 - 2012-10-14 10:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
2/3 of T2 rep capacity (~ 250hp/sec for T1 vs 380hp/sec for T2) for 1/40 of T2 cruiser price - that's really interesting. Could be nice to see these changes combined with killmails for logistics ships.

P.S. Logi drones are lame. Don't trade them for repper turrets slots, please.
Syrias Bizniz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2012-10-14 14:02:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
I would really like to see the faction variants of these cruisers to be rolebonused into covert ops support cruisers, like the Etana but without all the steroids and crack.


Also, so far these support cruisers seem to be... awesome :)



Lipbite wrote:
2/3 of T2 rep capacity (~ 250hp/sec for T1 vs 380hp/sec for T2) for 1/40 of T2 cruiser price - that's really interesting. Could be nice to see these changes combined with killmails for logistics ships.

P.S. Logi drones are lame. Don't trade them for repper turrets slots, please.




So, if i read this correctly, you state that a T1 Support Cruiser will rep approx 250 raw hitpoints per second, and a T2 Logistics Cruiser is repping roughly 380 raw hitpoints per second? If this is correct, than i am very proud to have a Scythe fitting ready that will pump out ~325 raw shieldhp per second. Sounds quite awesome, doesn't it? :)
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#253 - 2012-10-17 22:29:17 UTC
I assume that the dev team reads this blog, but just in case. Some interesting numbers. I don't agree with the conclusion that these ships are overpowered -- they have to be viable in their own right, and be mere stepping stones for T2 logistics, but it may be worthwhile to pay special attention to the impact of T1 logistics on fleet fights post-Retribution.

Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#254 - 2012-10-18 04:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Elise Randolph
The blog is neat, though Logi V pilots shouldn't fret just yet. The oversized trick only works on the shield logistic cruisers; Logistics ships get a bonus to fitting reps, but the shield Logis only get a CPU fitting bonus and the Scythe/Osprey have a healthy CPU to fall back on. The notion that T1 will be ~30% better~ than T2 is hyperbolic (though great for blog views) - a standard fit AB Scimi would still rep more than an oversized Scythe (though it would only be 10% better), and in fleet warfare I would rather have a ship that can survive than one that can do a hilarious gimmick, but that is my own personal view. In smaller scale things I'd still prefer a Scimi, since (3 of these Scythes could be shut down by 1 Maulus. In a 1v1 situation with a hidden Scythe alt I could indeed wreak havoc, but there would be much more havoc with a Griffin or Crucifier alt (hey these new ewar frigs are balloutrageous). But all of that is beside the point.

The T1 cruiser logistics are designed, if I understand Fozzie correctly, to operate with medium reps. Eve players constantly prove one thing: we're very good at breaking things. A good reason to post these things early )) I do agree that (easily) fitting large reps on a Scythe/Osprey is broken, and it should be rather trivial to bring the mechanic that makes it nonviable for the Augoror/Exequror to play the same trick. I do sort of hope that you can gimp your fit and have a gimmick 90km Scythe that is effectively useless in 95% of the situations but comedic gold in the remaining 5%.

~

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#255 - 2012-10-18 04:11:05 UTC
Elise Randolph wrote:


The T1 cruiser logistics are designed, if I understand Fozzie correctly, to operate with medium reps. Eve players constantly prove one thing: we're very good at breaking things. A good reason to post these things early )) I do agree that (easily) fitting large reps on a Scythe/Osprey is broken, and it should be rather trivial to bring the mechanic that makes it nonviable for the Augoror/Exequror to play the same trick. I do sort of hope that you can gimp your fit and have a gimmick 90km Scythe that is effectively useless in 95% of the situations but comedic gold in the remaining 5%.


Good opinion on blasters, now what do you think about cruiser logi ships?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

S1dy
Aurora Tactical Solutions
Synergy of Steel
#256 - 2012-10-18 08:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: S1dy
As said in the blog, too:

Updated attributes with what is announced so far.

But i think Jester took it a little wrong because the rep isn't 40% stronger than with Scimitar. It's just 16,7% compaired directly (1152 to 1344). He should differentiate between the logi's boost and what the boosted ship is able to tank.

Nevertheless, CCP should rework this. But i think it's easy made: The Scythe got too much CPU (Medium Shield Transfer fitted the Scythe only needs 395 of available 518 CPU). They just have to take 100 or 110 CPU away and there is no possibility of fitting 2 Large Shield Transfers. Easy made and with Mediums still a fine and well balanced ship in my opinion.

Elise Randolph wrote:
The blog is neat, though Logi V pilots shouldn't fret just yet. The oversized trick only works on the shield logistic cruisers; Logistics ships get a bonus to fitting reps, but the shield Logis only get a CPU fitting bonus and the Scythe/Osprey have a healthy CPU to fall back on. The notion that T1 will be ~30% better~ than T2 is hyperbolic (though great for blog views) - a standard fit AB Scimi would still rep more than an oversized Scythe (though it would only be 10% better), and in fleet warfare I would rather have a ship that can survive than one that can do a hilarious gimmick, but that is my own personal view.


Guess what? There are always guys out there trying exactly this overpowered boosting scythe and will be - i bet on this - victory with it. Roll In the end it's all about the pilots skills in flying ships, not the ship itself. So there should be no possibility to do exactly this Large Shield Transfer fit Blink
Bouh Revetoile
Beyond Frontier
Pandemic Horde
#257 - 2012-10-18 11:32:16 UTC
S1dy wrote:

Guess what? There are always guys out there trying exactly this overpowered boosting scythe and will be - i bet on this - victory with it. Roll In the end it's all about the pilots skills in flying ships, not the ship itself. So there should be no possibility to do exactly this Large Shield Transfer fit Blink

You cannot prevent anything bad to happen and allowing people to be creative at the same time. It's plain impossible.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#258 - 2012-10-18 14:27:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
I agree with Elise, and think that Jester is overreacting somewhat, especially when you consider that his fitting requires Minmatar Cruiser V to work, which does not have a trivial training time.

Besides which. An AB Scythe or Osprey will die in a fire if it stays on grid for any length of time, since it cannot maintain range in any meaningful way, unless the pilot has bounce spots all over the grid and no bubbles to stop him from using them.

When fit with MWD, the T1 support cruisers have about 20%-50% less repping power than comparable T2 logistics fittings. A 5/1 Basilisk is absolutely superior to a 4/1 Osprey, for example. Similarly, an AB Scimitar is superior to an AB Scythe in tank and in sustained repping power. Comparing an AB Scythe with an MWD Scimitar is not really all that meaningful, as I tried to point out in comments to Jester's post.

It may be a good idea to release these ships with the currently-proposed stats, and see how they are used. EVE players will find all of the potential exploits quite quickly, and the stats can then be adjusted accordingly.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#259 - 2012-10-18 16:08:05 UTC
Part of the reason we've been announcing these ships so early is so that we can implement changes based on feedback we receive before release. Thanks to everyone who is putting work into breaking all of these ships and sharing their feedback.

We've been seeing feedback for a while that we need to tighten up the fittings on some of the Support Cruisers and that blog illustrated one of the many examples of why. Lol

The basic design still appears sound, but don't expect the exact fitting numbers to stay the same between now and release.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Federation Uprising
#260 - 2012-10-18 16:36:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Part of the reason we've been announcing these ships so early is so that we can implement changes based on feedback we receive before release. Thanks to everyone who is putting work into breaking all of these ships and sharing their feedback.

We've been seeing feedback for a while that we need to tighten up the fittings on some of the Support Cruisers and that blog illustrated one of the many examples of why. Lol

The basic design still appears sound, but don't expect the exact fitting numbers to stay the same between now and release.


Fozzie bend your knee and bow to the might and greatness of Ripard Teg! You shall fix the Support Cruisers because he says so! He has defeated you with numbers and shiit. Get to steppin.