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ORE super hauler
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Luc Chastot
#1 - 2012-10-14 22:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Luc Chastot
Iteron V [All level V]

5x T2 cargo expanders
2x T2 cargo rigs
1x T1 cargo rig

This fit hauls 42.848m^3, and that's the maximum you will haul without using a freighter or an Orca. People have been asking for a mini-freighter that can move 200k m^3, but honestly, I think that's a bit too much.

Now, the problem with a larger hauler is how you balance it against the Iteron Mk V and the freighters.

Training
As the title says, make it an ORE vessel. ORE industrial is only needed by the Noctis, so having a new ship that uses this skill would help it gain relevance. "ORE industrial IV", "Spaceship Command V" and "Industry V" would make this ship need about half the amount of training than the Iteron V, but considering this won't get you closer to a freighter, it balances things out.

Tank
Here I'm not sure, but 1/3 more than that of the Iteron V sounds ok to me.

Speed
As this ship would certainly have more mass than the Iteron, having the same speed and agility would make it take much longer to warp (consirderably less acceleration). You can always fit an MWD though, which takes us to the next part.

Fittings
0H, 1M, 3L
50PG, 120CPU
EVE is about options, so you should have the option to fit your ship however you want (considering the limitations, of course).

Skill bonus
Logically, 5% to cargohold capacity.

Cargohold capacity
35.000m^3 without bonifications.

Finally, I'm not sure if this is a good or bad idea, as I'm no industrialist; I just wanted to give some thought to the idea of having a larger-than-Iteron V hauler, but without breaking the current balance of things. What's more, if such a ship were to be added to the game, CCP could look at adding something inbetween ORE industrial I (for the Noctis) and IV (for the hauler). A PI ship maybe? (Something fast and agile with a dedicated 3.000m^3 PI hold that can move to and fro lowsec with not as much risk).

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Luc Chastot
#2 - 2012-10-14 22:23:41 UTC
For those who don't want to do the math, this thing would haul close to 150k m^3 with the relevant skills at V and a cargo-focused fitting.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#3 - 2012-10-14 22:56:22 UTC
Why would you want to move such quantities of stuff in such a MASSIVE gank magnet?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#4 - 2012-10-14 23:40:56 UTC
Heavy Industrials.

- Battleship sized (battleship handling also)
- 50,000m3 base haulage (with no skills), with fitting and skill options to take it to about 150,000m3
- Requires racial Heavy Industrial skill, which requires racial industrial skill to V and advanced spaceship command V
- T2 ship, with T2 tank and resists (approx battleship sized tank)
- 2 high slots, 1 turret/launcher hardpoint

basically make it a battleship with no real guns, but a very large cargo hold. The training time is quite long, but these ships would be used a lot and they're being given T2 resists anyway, so they should sting if you want to train for them
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5 - 2012-10-15 00:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
the orca can haul

400km3 of ships in ship maintenance bay
50km3 in ore
40km3 of anything in corp hangar
30km3 of anything in its normal cargo bay (plus rigs, skills and modules can boost this to 100km3)

for a total 520km3 before 'bonifications' (590km3 after), it has battleship tank with a full hauler set up and can fit modules for customisation. the ship u desire already exists, i guess u just never thought of it as a hauler.

It even has bays that cannot be scanned by other players (ore hold, ship maintenance bay and corp hangar)

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#6 - 2012-10-15 01:12:45 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
the orca can haul

400km3 of ships in ship maintenance bay
50km3 in ore
40km3 of anything in corp hangar
30km3 of anything in its normal cargo bay (plus rigs, skills and modules can boost this to 100km3)

for a total 520km3 before 'bonifications' (590km3 after), it has battleship tank with a full hauler set up and can fit modules for customisation. the ship u desire already exists, i guess u just never thought of it as a hauler.

It even has bays that cannot be scanned by other players (ore hold, ship maintenance bay and corp hangar)


400,000m3 of ASSEMBLED ships in its SMA. This means you can carry... 0 battleships, or 1 Battlecruiser or 3-4 cruisers.
50,000m3 of ORE in it's Ore Hold. If you aren't moving Ore this hold is useless. And you can only put unrefined ore into it, no minerals.
40,000m3 of just about anything in the corp hangar.
30,000m3 of cargohold.

This tells me you have never flown an Orca. Which tells me you are objecting because you don't fly one and don't want anyone else to get a new toy, even if it wont affect you at all. Another problem is that the different holds are split up, so although you have a lot of space, you can't fill it as often as you'd like. For the record, if you are fit for hauling, the cargohold will be 92,714m3 which is nice, but then there's this...

The Orca requires:
Industrial Command Ships I
- Spaceship Command V
- Mining Barge V
- Mining Director I
- Astrogeology III
- Industry V
- Leadership I
- Mining Foreman V
- Science IV
- Mining II
Total training time: 50 days, 2 hours, 23 minutes and 23 seconds.

I have underlined all of the required skills that are useful for other haulers. Yes, all ONE of them. All of the rest is leadership or mining skills. Strange how the Orca has you train leadership and mining skills, perhaps it's because the intended usage includes being a fleet booster for mining operations, and not hauling?

In other news, a Charon requires:
Caldari Freighter I
- Advanced Spaceship Command I
- Caldari industrial V
- Spaceship Command V
- Caldari Frigate III
Total training time: 29 days, 20 hours, 15 minutes and 0 seconds.

Much bigger cargohold. Much faster to train for. No leadership skills required.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2012-10-15 01:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
lol ppl use haulers to move assembled ships and ore too u know. it still moves 140km3 of anything u want, which is extremely close to what the OP was wanting.

i also remember reading something about long training time, someone wanting it to require advanced space ship command level V(edit- oh that was u!)? u realise it takes about 48 days to get to level 5 in advanced space ship command and racial industrial? well 50days is not much longer than that, and u get more useful skills along the way and a ship that can do alot more than just a plain hauler.

i WAS going to say there is no point in this as freighters already do it better, but then i saw that the orca was almost exactly what they were asking for with customisability, tank and even a faster warp speed.

no, i dnt fly an orca cause i use freighters, and the split cargo holds is not a big issue with a 40km bay and a 100km bay.

srs, no need to get crazy.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#8 - 2012-10-15 02:43:00 UTC
For the OP (and u paik if u want)

[Orca, Orca C2 - Hauler]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I

Improved Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Cargohold Optimization II
Large Cargohold Optimization II
Large Ancillary Current Router I


Hobgoblin II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5

This orca can haul 87 784m3 + 40 000m3 (127 784m3) of whatever u want

-plus, if u so wish, u can carry 400km3 of assembled ships (just less than half a freighter)
-u can also carry 50km3 of ore if u want
-it comes with a BS sized mwd for quick align times
-warps almost as fast as a BS (2.7au/s)
-has 91.5k ehp
-comes with drones for whoring on KM's or jamming ppl trying to gank u
-has secret holds that cannot be scanned by others
-can cloak

AND

-can be used as a small mobile POS for corpies
-can boost friendly gangs (doesnt have to use mining gang boosts)
-can be used to swap from bait ships to combat ships (the basis of ninja pvp)
-can be used to support miners
-costs less isk than a freighter
-can be refit for 200k+ ehp fits
-can re fit for more space with another cargo rig (u would need a 5% grid implant to fit the mwd though)
-maybe the coolest looking hauler in the game

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#9 - 2012-10-15 03:02:57 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


[Orca, Orca C2 - Hauler]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I

Improved Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Cargohold Optimization II
Large Cargohold Optimization II
Large Ancillary Current Router I


Hobgoblin II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5


Those rigs alone cost 560mil ISK. So your price tag is only just below a freighter, and your training time is more than twice as long.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
This orca can haul 87 784m3 + 40 000m3 (127 784m3) of whatever u want


And yet it is split between two holds, so the largest thing you can move is 87,784m3.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
-plus, if u so wish, u can carry 400km3 of assembled ships (just less than half a freighter)

Freighters cannot carry assembled ships.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
-it comes with a BS sized mwd for quick align times

Minor nit-pick, MWD makes you SLOWER to align. It improves your time to enter warp, but only if your ship is not moving at all (after jumping a gate).

Daichi Yamato wrote:
-warps almost as fast as a BS (2.7au/s)
-has 91.5k ehp
-comes with drones for whoring on KM's or jamming ppl trying to gank u
-has secret holds that cannot be scanned by others
-can cloak

AND

-can be used as a small mobile POS for corpies
-can boost friendly gangs (doesnt have to use mining gang boosts)
-can be used to swap from bait ships to combat ships (the basis of ninja pvp)
-can be used to support miners
-costs less isk than a freighter
-can be refit for 200k+ ehp fits
-can re fit for more space with another cargo rig (u would need a 5% grid implant to fit the mwd though)
-maybe the coolest looking hauler in the game


Most (all?) of which is either irrelevant or done better by other ships.
Luc Chastot
#10 - 2012-10-15 03:09:35 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why would you want to move such quantities of stuff in such a MASSIVE gank magnet?


People fly freighters.

On another note, to those pointing the Orca as a hauler, the problem with it is the long training and the fact it is expensive. Also, why would you train for an Orca if all you want is to move large quantities of stuff, but still don't need a freighter?

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2012-10-15 03:20:56 UTC
Paikis wrote:

Those rigs alone cost 560mil ISK. So your price tag is only just below a freighter, and your training time is more than twice as long.


ok so T1 if ur feeling cheap. only a 7km3 difference.

Paikis wrote:


And yet it is split between two holds, so the largest thing you can move is 87,784m3.


and? whats bigger than that? ships?...oh wait, ship maitnenance bay Roll

Paikis wrote:

Freighters cannot carry assembled ships.

yes they can, make courier contracts through alts

Paikis wrote:

Minor nit-pick, MWD makes you SLOWER to align. It improves your time to enter warp, but only if your ship is not moving at all (after jumping a gate).


pulse once and u warp once it turns off (so 10 second align time rather than 30-40) u clearly do not know how to eve


Paikis wrote:

Most (all?) of which is either irrelevant or done better by other ships.


i know the training time is quite long, but apart from that it looks like everything that was desired and more (it only takes 2 more days training than ur proposed idea so...)

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#12 - 2012-10-15 03:24:47 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why would you want to move such quantities of stuff in such a MASSIVE gank magnet?


People fly freighters.

On another note, to those pointing the Orca as a hauler, the problem with it is the long training and the fact it is expensive. Also, why would you train for an Orca if all you want is to move large quantities of stuff, but still don't need a freighter?


no idea, i'd personally use a freighter

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Luc Chastot
#13 - 2012-10-15 03:32:46 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Luc Chastot wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why would you want to move such quantities of stuff in such a MASSIVE gank magnet?


People fly freighters.

On another note, to those pointing the Orca as a hauler, the problem with it is the long training and the fact it is expensive. Also, why would you train for an Orca if all you want is to move large quantities of stuff, but still don't need a freighter?


no idea, i'd personally use a freighter


Exactly; so if you don't really want to train for a freighter because you don't need to move that much cargo, what would you train for? An Orca? It takes considerably longer training. This ship requires a whooping 10 days of training and will get you ~140k m^3 with T1 rigs.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#14 - 2012-10-15 03:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Daichi Yamato wrote:
and? whats bigger than that? ships?...oh wait, ship maintenance bay Roll


How about a courier contract for 87,785m3? Or for any other number that is bigger than 87,785m3 and yet not really big enough to justify a freighter?

Daichi Yamato wrote:
yes they can, make courier contracts through alts


And that is what some people would call an exploit. Me, I'll call it useful and file it for later use.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
Paikis wrote:

Minor nit-pick, MWD makes you SLOWER to align. It improves your time to enter warp, but only if your ship is not moving at all (after jumping a gate).


pulse once and u warp once it turns off (so 10 second align time rather than 30-40) u clearly do not know how to eve


I am aware of how that particular trick works. It only works however if your ship is perfectly stopped and thus not already aligned somewhere. If you are moving at all (even a fraction of a meter per second) it will increase your align time by a large margin. Like I said, minor nitpick but still.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
i know the training time is quite long, but apart from that it looks like everything that was desired and more (it only takes 2 more days training than your proposed idea so...)


So why not do it? Why make people train for Mining and Leadership skills that they probably don't want?

Any ways, i see no reason NOT to put in an Heavy Industrial (or Light Freighter) other than the oft repeated "use an Orca" argument, which isn't really a valid reason... I mean we're getting 4 new destroyers and an Ore Frigate that are basically just different versions of things we already have.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#15 - 2012-10-15 03:45:12 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:


Exactly; so if you don't really want to train for a freighter because you don't need to move that much cargo, what would you train for? An Orca? It takes considerably longer training. This ship requires a whooping 10 days of training and will get you ~140k m^3 with T1 rigs.


if it can fit a decent mwd and carries more than T1 racial indies, then it would make those T1 indies obsolete.

i just realised. the grid u've allowed it in the OP would be insufficient to fit a mwd to propel it into a faster warp. Intentional? i assumed u just wanted a mwd to make it warp faster.

anyways, i think a ship like this would require a longer training time than an iteron V, because it will out class it in every way (except speed). trouble is, once u get into an itty V ur practically in an obelisk anyways. where could we slot a ship inbetween that takes less time to skill for than a freighter, but hauls better than a maxed indy?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#16 - 2012-10-15 03:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Paikis wrote:

And that is what some people would call an exploit. Me, I'll call it useful and file it for later use.


is eve going to be changed so that ppl can not courier assembled ships to other players?

and as for the pulse trick, we ARE hauling through gates here. why would we suddenly decide to fly in the opposite direction of the next gate?

i'll give u that courier contracts can be larger than said size, but anyone whos serious about doing courier contracts will just use freighters almost every time. most times ive wanted things moved i use friends or alts and just contract the stuff over to them anwyays, unless they are assembled ships anyways.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#17 - 2012-10-15 03:49:00 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
anyways, i think a ship like this would require a longer training time than an iteron V, because it will out class it in every way (except speed). trouble is, once u get into an itty V ur practically in an obelisk anyways. where could we slot a ship inbetween that takes less time to skill for than a freighter, but hauls better than a maxed indy?


Ignoring the MWD issue.

Is there any reason we couldn't make the current freighters require racial freighter IV to fly? Then have these as 'light freighters' and only require racial freighter I to fly? I hope that CCP are planning on revamping the industrials, because the current setup is rather... unbalanced.
LuckyQuarter
Eden Dominion Coalition
Scary Wormhole People
#18 - 2012-10-15 03:56:34 UTC
IMHO:
Ore hauling ships should be focused on large ore/min bays period.
All other hauling should use standard race based hauling skills.
It'd be nice if t2 transports got a small buff or if there was a more affordable version of jump freighter, but limited to high sec and w/o cyno but with ship bay and corp hanger (e.g. a t2 version of orca w/o ore bay but with perhaps 2-3x size of standard orca cargo/ship bay). However, it should use race transport skills and take advantage of advanced space ship command rather than mining/leadership skills the orca uses.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#19 - 2012-10-15 04:01:21 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
anyways, i think a ship like this would require a longer training time than an iteron V, because it will out class it in every way (except speed). trouble is, once u get into an itty V ur practically in an obelisk anyways. where could we slot a ship inbetween that takes less time to skill for than a freighter, but hauls better than a maxed indy?


Ignoring the MWD issue.

Is there any reason we couldn't make the current freighters require racial freighter IV to fly? Then have these as 'light freighters' and only require racial freighter I to fly? I hope that CCP are planning on revamping the industrials, because the current setup is rather... unbalanced.


this bit in bold is the level required for T2 freighters, so i doubt it. It would more than likely require an overhaul as u suggest. chances of that happening in the near future are next to none.

but the orca is only 50 days away :P

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#20 - 2012-10-15 04:40:26 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
this bit in bold is the level required for T2 freighters, so i doubt it. It would more than likely require an overhaul as u suggest. chances of that happening in the near future are next to none.

but the orca is only 50 days away :P


I already have an alt that can fly an orca. I saw how things were and chose the best solution I had available. That doesn't mean that I should now stop asking for a larger industrial (or smaller freighter) just because I have the option of using an Orca.
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