These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The future of Community and CCL

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Corpse Bride
Perkone
Caldari State
#721 - 2012-10-14 22:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Corpse Bride
ISD Suvetar wrote:

Edit: Snipped personal attack - ISD Suvetar.


Sorry...

Becka Goldbeck wrote:
Does anyone remember Akita T? I'm not sure if he's still around but I'll use his posting as an example. Back when the old forums were closing Akita T was close to becoming the top poster, and accomplished this after a flurry of posts. Forum posting can be a hobby, some forum posters may lurk around a forum, searching, waiting for something they can comment on. They collect little thumbs ups or build their post count.

This becomes a problem when you introduce forum posters with special moderation privileges. These ISD posters lurk around this forum, searching, waiting for something to moderate on. Not only does this lead to overzealous moderation but because they're clearly doing it as a hobby, often after putting their 2 cents in they'll promptly lock the thread. They'll even go so far as to edit or delete dissenting posts.

When this happens, ISD's develop a sort of unholy following of regular forum posters who are quick to bandwagon against anything they think could be or will be moderated. This boosts the ISD's ego leading to even more enthusiastic moderation and it makes the regular forum posters feel good that they were on the 'winning' side. But it's really a false contest, there's no winning and losing side, the entire thing is being created by the overzealous moderators themselves.

I think that the ISD's should have their moderation powers immediately revoked as they're creating more hostility than they would have or could have ever solved.

(this thread was locked)


You realise your 'thread' was locked because you broke the rules ?
You realise that ISD are here because people break the rules ? *all the time*
You realise that almost everything you've ever posted has been slagging off ISD ?

Why are you projecting on to them so much - what happened to you ?
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#722 - 2012-10-14 22:06:39 UTC
Becka Goldbeck wrote:
These ISD posters lurk around this forum, searching, waiting for something to moderate on. Not only does this lead to overzealous moderation but because they're clearly doing it as a hobby, often after putting their 2 cents in they'll promptly lock the thread.


You see that little flag top of the posts? That's what others use to call in the ISD reinforcements.
"Why god the enemy is within our own ranks!"
Becka Goldbeck
#723 - 2012-10-14 22:09:42 UTC
Corpse Bride wrote:

You realise your 'thread' was locked because you broke the rules ?
You realise that ISD are here because people break the rules ? *all the time*


This doesn't address what I just said at all.



Quote:
You realise that almost everything you've ever posted has been slagging off ISD ?
Why are you projecting on to them so much - what happened to you ?


This character, yes. But I've posted on lots of different ones. I'm not projecting anything on them I think this entire idea is rubbish and a failed experiment resulting from a community team who wants to delegate the entirety of their workload onto the player-base.
Corpse Bride
Perkone
Caldari State
#724 - 2012-10-14 22:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Becka Goldbeck wrote:
Corpse Bride wrote:

You realise your 'thread' was locked because you broke the rules ?
You realise that ISD are here because people break the rules ? *all the time*


This doesn't address what I just said at all.


It addresses your need to write (this thread was locked) at the bottom of your post; you just proved your own reason for why ISD exists.

You know that there's been forum moderation practiced by volunteers since 2003 ?
The only thing melting down here is your ripping this place apart to prove that ISD have some vendetta or god knows what else.

Edit: FYP - ISD Suvetar
Becka Goldbeck
#725 - 2012-10-14 22:18:55 UTC
Corpse Bride wrote:

The only thing melting down here is your ripping this place apart to prove that ISD have some vendetta or god knows what else.


I only posted in one other thread besides the one I made. I only included (thread was locked) because I copy and pasted it over from the thread I made.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#726 - 2012-10-14 22:21:25 UTC
Becka,

Let me draw your attention to something I wrote last night in another thread:

regarding ccl

I hope it might reassure you about the checks and balances that are maintained to ensure that we don't turn into a overzealous moderation monster.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
#727 - 2012-10-14 22:31:24 UTC
Becka Goldbeck wrote:
Does anyone remember Akita T? I'm not sure if he's still around but I'll use his posting as an example. Back when the old forums were closing Akita T was close to becoming the top poster, and accomplished this after a flurry of posts. Forum posting can be a hobby, some forum posters may lurk around a forum, searching, waiting for something they can comment on. They collect little thumbs ups or build their post count.

This becomes a problem when you introduce forum posters with special moderation privileges. These ISD posters lurk around this forum, searching, waiting for something to moderate on. Not only does this lead to overzealous moderation but because they're clearly doing it as a hobby, often after putting their 2 cents in they'll promptly lock the thread. They'll even go so far as to edit or delete dissenting posts.

When this happens, ISD's develop a sort of unholy following of regular forum posters who are quick to bandwagon against anything they think could be or will be moderated. This boosts the ISD's ego leading to even more enthusiastic moderation and it makes the regular forum posters feel good that they were on the 'winning' side. But it's really a false contest, there's no winning and losing side, the entire thing is being created by the overzealous moderators themselves.

I think that the ISD's should have their moderation powers immediately revoked as they're creating more hostility than they would have or could have ever solved.

(this thread was locked)

excellent, so well put.
Becka Goldbeck
#728 - 2012-10-14 22:33:19 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Becka,

Let me draw your attention to something I wrote last night in another thread:

regarding ccl

I hope it might reassure you about the checks and balances that are maintained to ensure that we don't turn into a overzealous moderation monster.


To be honest it doesn't, I don't think your intentions are bad and I'm not directing anything at you individually. But I think the track record thus far of the ISD as a whole has been overzealous and I think the problems I elaborated on above can't be avoided by good intentions. It's just the nature of this arrangement and how people are.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#729 - 2012-10-14 22:48:37 UTC
Becka Goldbeck wrote:
and how people are.

Direct CCP moderation would be no less impervious to bias and personal feelings as any other individual volunteer slippage. People are people and they can get carried away. CCP employees can be players just like the rest of us and have their own allegiances. The job and duty is to ignore the game and enforce the rules. So it doesn't matter where the moderation comes from, the effect is the same. As ISD has mentioned time and again, there is a checks and balance system. Same thing would exist if CCP was covering it internally.
III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
#730 - 2012-10-14 22:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: III ZiggyBang
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Becka Goldbeck wrote:
and how people are.

Direct CCP moderation would be no less impervious to bias and personal feelings as any other individual volunteer slippage. People are people and they can get carried away. CCP employees can be players just like the rest of us and have their own allegiances. The job and duty is to ignore the game and enforce the rules. So it doesn't matter where the moderation comes from, the effect is the same. As ISD has mentioned time and again, there is a checks and balance system. Same thing would exist if CCP was covering it internally.


yeah, that's not true, you're new I get it. please limit your comments, I assume to wit; sucking up to the ISD to advance your application, to subjects you actually know about.
That should reduce your post count to nearly zero for the foreseeable future, not a bad thing imho.

edit: I'm using the excellent block function available on the forums now to ensure I don't accidentally read anymore of your ridiculous slobber, so please don't bother, perhaps do the same to me eh!
::smileyface emoticon::
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#731 - 2012-10-14 22:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
III ZiggyBang wrote:

yeah, that's not true.


Once upon a time, there was a little alliance called BoB...

edit: doubt it.
::winky face::
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#732 - 2012-10-14 23:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Becka Goldbeck wrote:

To be honest it doesn't, I don't think your intentions are bad and I'm not directing anything at you individually. But I think the track record thus far of the ISD as a whole has been overzealous and I think the problems I elaborated on above can't be avoided by good intentions. It's just the nature of this arrangement and how people are.


Hi,

There have been incidents of overzealousness in the past, I'll grant you that.
If you attended the seminar yesterday you'll know that part of my job is to manage these incidents and coach my moderators on how to better apply the very limited tools that we have at our disposal.

I can't and won't mention names but I have been involved with people being removed from ISD entirely for gross violations of player trust.

You're clearly intelligent and you care a lot about this community; believe me when I say that I'd rather have you posting on-topic then not!

You know - perhaps you should apply to join the team ? We can always use people of passion for the community, it's the one common thing that we all have in our team. If you got in, it'd also prove to you that we're not doing what you think we're doing.

As a last thought just occurred to me, there is another plausible reason why we appear to be over-zealous at times. There are generally 3 of us who are active at this time, and we are the first line of people to deal with reported posts (unless the report is about a post that a CCL member has made) so that might explain why the same people are always seen to be applying the rules and therefore appearing heavy handed because of sheer volume.

It really isn't about good intentions though; it's my job to deal with ISD members who've not done their moderation correctly.
You can help me though, if you see this overzealous behaviour it then report it. You can put "FAO CCL Leads" at the start of your report and it will get through to myself or ISD Eshtir, who's in charge of this team.

I mean this sincerely.

Edit - Regarding reports, don't use the enter key - it looks like it can take a large block of text but it truncates everything after the first carriage return.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#733 - 2012-10-14 23:40:46 UTC
This is so simple it's embarrassing to CCP.

Employees care and follow rules because they get paid. (no matter what they say. Tell them paychecks aren't coming at the end of the week and see how many are still there the next)

Volunteers are just doing something because they have an ulterior motive. (no matter what they say. Yes, even your 90 year old granny that volunteers at the local children's hospital is doing it because she needs a reason to get up in the morning)


ISDs are by far one of the worst ideas in forum history. Below is perfect example of why. I had to lecture this guy in the new player forums because he didn't like my wording.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1869146#post1869146
Anslo
Scope Works
#734 - 2012-10-14 23:45:21 UTC
This thread needs locked and specific undesirable elements to the community and CCP's corporate interest need banned.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#735 - 2012-10-14 23:56:14 UTC
If they can't put their own bias and opinions aside to perform their task objectively, they should be removed. I think many times they're also taking the side of the negative and abusive forces you hope to control, and punishing anyone who stands up to them.

For example, if an ISD was behind my last forum ban, they should be fired into the sun. I know i'm not allowed to discuss details, but i believe it was conjured out of thin air due to something i said in a thread which they didn't like, but couldn't take action against me for that post in particular, because i'm generally polite to people even when they're frothing at the mouth and screaming obscenities, so they searched through my posts from weeks and weeks earlier until they found something in a long dead thread that could be considered mildly offensive and used that as an excuse to ban me. I can't think of any other reason it would have happened the way it did. I've been posting here for many years and was never banned until these ISD cowboys started running around.

note: technically i'm not discussing actual moderator actions, only theoretical ones that may have happened, so i don't think it's bannable, but feel free to ban me anyway if you're just itching to. I'll be sure to get the message this time.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#736 - 2012-10-14 23:56:36 UTC
Anslo wrote:
This thread needs locked and specific undesirable elements to the community and CCP's corporate interest need banned.

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to CCP, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn!
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#737 - 2012-10-15 00:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Hi Minmatar Citizen,

I should like to point out that the post you're referring to was made by a member of the STAR team, not the CCL team, that this thread is specifically about.

But yes, in regard to the context you used, of course we volunteers have an ulterior motive, nobody is denying that.
Everybody does something for a reason but what I take objection to is the suggestion that the motive is a negative one, to 'get one over' other forum posters or anything of that nature.

For one, you can't - I see what gets moderated and if I notice any odd patterns then I talk to the person involved and undo the action taken.
Two, you can't do all that much, CCL team members are not permitted to be in-game or to moderate in any thread that involves their mains corp or alliance. As a lead, I can see the details of my team members and know who they are so I can also enforce this.

Of course you might argue then that it's my ulterior motive that could be suspect, but I'll be open about it:
I do this because I enjoy this aspect of the community.
I do it because I get to talk to CCP staff members and having been in ISD is helpful when getting employment with CCP.


It's not much but its a payment of sorts.

Lastly, to suggest that a single misunderstanding between two people is a perfect example of ISD being 'by far one of the worst ideas in forum history; is ad hominem.

Have a look at the evelopedia ISD entry, we're a lot more than mere forum moderators.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#738 - 2012-10-15 20:22:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Minmatar Citizen160812
ISD Suvetar wrote:

Lastly, to suggest that a single misunderstanding between two people is a perfect example of ISD being 'by far one of the worst ideas in forum history; is ad hominem.



Argumentum ad hominem? No, it's my personal opinion based on the abuses I've seen and experienced. I made no irrelevant personal attack to win an argument. My opinion is not based on that one experience. I merely referenced a good example to support my opinion.

As a customer, I don't have to understand the different job duties and who is "STAR" team...which does...who cares? PLAYERS are moderating your forums at such a rate that I have a hard time believing anyone has a handle on them and what they are doing to the OTHER customers voicing their personal opinions. I could understand having some guys on hand to remove pony pictures and other egregious violations but general moderation? No, I'm sorry but paid professionals with a background in something related to moderating other than "being an avid poster" is needed. Period.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#739 - 2012-10-30 00:57:07 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Pipa,

I am not going to get into word games with you about this.

Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with.


You're saying that posting killmails is a violation of rule 7. Rule 7 specifically defines what it prohibits. How is asking you to explain how posting a killmail will always fit that definition getting into "word games"?


Here's a challenge for you then Pipa: classify the posts containing killmails into two groups: those where the thread degenerated into trolling, and those which didn't.

Go! Find! Report!

As an aside, do you agree with the philosophy of "nipping it in the bud" when it comes to controlling weeds and unwanted growth in a garden?


By that logic, my challenge to you would be to classify all the posts containing the word "the" into those two groups. I have noticed that most posts which lead into trolling contain that word, and thus the word must be banned, right?


Weeds are bad for gardens. Beans are not. Both are plants.
Trolling is bad for the forums. Legitimate discussion is not. Both can involve killmails or the word "the."


By the way, the examples of trolling via killmails that have been pointed out (along the lines of "Durhurr look at this idiot") easily fit into the definition of Rule 7 with the killmail removed. Indicating that the presence or absence of a killmail is not at all a good test for trolling.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#740 - 2012-10-30 01:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Lastly, to suggest that a single misunderstanding between two people is a perfect example of ISD being 'by far one of the worst ideas in forum history; is ad hominem.


No, it's not. It doesn't follow the right form to be an ad hominem argument.

"You are wrong because you're a bad" is an ad hominem argument.

"You are a bad" is not an argument, it is a statement. Therefore, it cannot be an example of argumentum ad hominem.


Saying that "a policy or program is a terrible idea because it produced terrible results" is a valid argument. You're free to argue that the results aren't terrible. You're free to argue that the policy or program isn't terrible even if the results are. Dismissing it as a fallacy is simply poisoning the well (a real fallacy).



I'm not saying either of you are right or wrong, but I don't think ISD's should be attempting to poison the well of discourse between them and a player.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon