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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

First post First post
Author
Nendail Smith
Lockheed Nighthawk
#741 - 2012-10-14 02:08:51 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
did you read the blog?

"This immediately puts a Suspect Flag on the target, thus allowing you and others in your vicinity to attack the target. If the target player is killed while under a Suspect flag, then the kill right is ‘spent’. If the target manages to escape and the Suspect flag timer (15 minutes) lapses, the kill right is still available to be purchased (activated) later on."

as you can see if the person you got the kill right for evades death, then the kill right can be reclaimed again, untill it either expires or the bugger is dead

Think.

Suspect escapes, ships to shuttle, gets killed by friends or alt within ~15 minutes, killright expended.

Also, if the killright is cheap enough just ship to shuttle, activate with alt, blow self up.

The mechanic is terrible and very easily gamed.


I personly think it a killright should become a 2-3 week "war dec" vs the single person or persons who "ganked" you and then this could in turn be traded with someone else, either someone could pay you for them or you could pay them to take it...

this would allow them to hunt the target for the entire duration of the 2-3 weeks even if they kill him... I suggest this because I dislike the suspect idea very very much... if you really wanted something like what you suggested, simply make it "everyone in fleet with the person who activates the killright, can attack the target (LE)"


No. I love the idea of the new mechanics and activating kill rights. I think it's awesome that if you screw up, the whole system can police itself. Using that as part of the kill right activation isn't that big of an issue.
Nendail Smith
Lockheed Nighthawk
#742 - 2012-10-14 02:11:20 UTC
Sariton Xavian wrote:
The other side of this is what happens to the kill right activation fee if the attempt to kill the bountied person fails?

If the fee remains paid in spite of the attempt failing and the kill right remaining active, this becomes a profitable baiting mechanism. eg. Kill your own alt, have them set an expensive bounty and kill right purchase price on your main, then parade the main around looking like he's easy to kill when he has an escape contingency and farm all the people buying the kill right.


This is a really good point. With the inflation issues in Eve atm and the need for isk sinks, how about if the kill is NOT successful the isk is destroyed from the economy, if the ship IS destroyed, it is paid to the person who sold the right?
Nendail Smith
Lockheed Nighthawk
#743 - 2012-10-14 02:24:09 UTC
Sariton Xavian wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

Reship into noobship, undock, activate killright with alt, shoot noobship with alt. vOv


Yeah, ironic isn't it. Alt bagging your own head is one of the most fundamental problems with the existing system. The new system tries to close or at least minimise that loophole, then just falls prey to it again on the kill rights level.

Maybe kill rights shouldn't be so much sold as rented :P They only expire after 30 days or when you personally execute them same as current. The ones third parties can access are effectively a pay per use means of accessing bounties in highsec. If the mark is in shuttle/noobship nobody will bother because the bounty won't be worth it, same as per the proposed system. But now there is nothing gained by the mark killing himself with an alt, since the right can't be expended that way. He'd just be funding the kill right "leasor" (which again circles back to where that money goes and the potential exploitation of baiting).


Hmm interesting concept. I think it has a few problems with being abused from the other side, but none-the-less it's a step better than what we're looking at now.
Nendail Smith
Lockheed Nighthawk
#744 - 2012-10-14 02:35:11 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Some of you have seen my thread in GD. I will now offer my input on the new system in this one, so that the devs can properly consider my viewpoint.

First of all, I would like to say that the bounty portion of these changes is quite nice. It's definitely a step in the right direction, and I don't see any significant flaws in it.

Having said that, let me tell you why the kill rights portion of the changes is ridiculous beyond justification:

First and foremost, this system spits in the face of the concept of being a bounty hunter. As I said in my thread, bounty-hunters have risk. Bounty-hunters do work for money, not pay money for work. Bounty-hunters don't want random people interfering in their work. Apparently CCP passed right over those concepts and went straight for making bounty hunting as close to a pve experience as possible.

To create a system in which the "bounty hunter" not only relies on random passerby to do his work for him, but indeed doesn't even have to expose himself to a modicum of risk, is completely absurd. What kind of bounty hunter just sits back and waits for random civvies to bag his target? This is a total cop-out. CCP is not delivering a feature that players have been asking for for so long.

There are other downsides to this system, aside from player satisfaction and realism. For example, this new system will not result in an increase in pvp quantity, or an increase in pvp quality, as many people have claimed. In fact, it will do the exact opposite. The reason for that, as I said multiple times, would be the prevalence of blobs used to ensure victory. People simply won't commit crimes unless they have the support base to deter full systems of neutrals interfering. There will be exceptions in less-populated areas, but generally this will be the rule.

Lots of people claim that pvpers should like this change, otherwise they're hypocrites and aren't all that hot about pvp to begin with. That's like saying "well you like pvp, so you should like either being forced to dock or being guaranteed to lose your ship every engagement." Like I said above, people will only fight when they know their situation isn't hopeless. When I'm flagged to an entire corporation, the odds may be stacked, but the situation isn't hopeless. When I'm flagged to the whole universe, the situation is hopeless because there can be so many people around that I have zero chance of winning unless I use a massive logistics blob.

Therefore, I have two viable options: (1) not fight at all, or (2) use so much backup that people quickly learn not to shoot suspects (from theft or kill rights, it doesn't matter). Either way, the quantity and quality of pvp will decrease.

Here is some supporting information for my argument:

Many years ago, when can-baiting was initially introduced, EVE went through the same thing. After the first few weeks, people quickly learned not to take from bait cans, or even to engage players who took from their cans/wrecks, because the party doing the "baiting" always turned out to be superior in combat. The exact same thing will happen this time. People will quickly learn not to shoot the suspects after getting trounced by the suspects and their infinite logistics backup.

The only difference is that while can-flagging created a new avenue for combat and retaliation from scratch (and thus leading to a net increase in total pvp), the new kill rights system will change a system that currently works, and could potentially work even better by making kill rights work only for the person who activates them, into a system that will be avoided entirely. Also keep in mind, this system will do nothing to deter the usage of alts in suicide-ganking, and anyone who uses a primary character for the task today will just roll an alt. They will not care about losing destroyers to kill rights on those alts.

Finally, as has been mentioned too many times to count, it will be extremely easy to game the system via the use of alts.

The Solution:

This is really quite simple. Make kill rights a tradeable item, able to be given/sold to either players or corporations. This would make the bounty hunting profession true to its name, balanced, and fun. Instead of toggling FFA flags on the perps, dedicated bounty hunting organizations will be able to take on contracts from the victims and pursue their targets according to standard kill right rules. This would add both an element of risk and an element of reward to the bounty hunting profession; the risk would come from actually having to go after your target instead of relying on uninvolved, neutral players to do the work for you, and the reward would come from having exclusive rights to the target's loot and bounty.

Really, CCP, this is a no-brainer. If you make this change, it would quite possibly be your best accomplishment in regards to pvp. It would be downright legendary, and word-of-mouth would travel fast. In fact, this would also make the suspect flag for can theft a tolerable feature as well.

Please heed my words.


This post started out good, and then just turned into a cry-fest.

FIrst, trading kill rights is fail for allowing fleets to hunt together as a bounty hunting team/corp. If the kill right can be activated for the entire fleet, Ok I could go with that. But if you're just looking for 1v1 pvp go someplace and fight people who agree to it.

Second a kill right is a result of breaking a law. If a crap load of people want to be vigil ante's than so be it. I kind of dig that aspect of it.

Third, I agree with you that it's complete BS that they a hunter would PAY for a kill right. The mind-set is completely backwards in that this is not a profession if we have to pay to do it. I love the idea of kill-right hunting, but I'm sure as hell not going to pay to do it.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#745 - 2012-10-14 02:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Nendail Smith wrote:
This post started out good, and then just turned into a cry-fest.

FIrst, trading kill rights is fail for allowing fleets to hunt together as a bounty hunting team/corp. If the kill right can be activated for the entire fleet, Ok I could go with that. But if you're just looking for 1v1 pvp go someplace and fight people who agree to it.

Second a kill right is a result of breaking a law. If a crap load of people want to be vigil ante's than so be it. I kind of dig that aspect of it.

Third, I agree with you that it's complete BS that they a hunter would PAY for a kill right. The mind-set is completely backwards in that this is not a profession if we have to pay to do it. I love the idea of kill-right hunting, but I'm sure as hell not going to pay to do it.

I have nothing against a corporation being able to buy kill rights. I might have forgotten to mention it in that post, but I did mention it in my thread.

edit: actually I did mention it in the quoted post.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Nendail Smith
Lockheed Nighthawk
#746 - 2012-10-14 02:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nendail Smith
Darth Gustav wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Front-loading pod aggression in low-sec is pretty dumb.

High-sec players have no business claiming kill rights that came from a legitimate ransom where the capsule was let go. If high-sec players wanted to have an impact on low-sec, that's where high-sec players would actually be. Roll

This potentially punishes low-sec pirates for being honest in low-sec if they then go back to high-sec.

That's broken. Don't make high-sec players arbiters of justice for something they want nothing to do with.

Agreed.

This is a less serious issue than the suspect flag bounty hunting hurf blurf they're about to force on us though.

But yeah, front-loading player penalties for ANYTHING is dumb as hell. If I rob a liquor store and the cops shoot my ass and throw me into jail, the store owner doesn't get to come by and pop me in the ass again for self-defense.

Less serious from a technical standpoint perhaps, but not from a risk vs. reward standpoint or an overall design elegance standpoint either, I'd say.

If you think about the convolutedness of high-sec players acting as really bad arbiters of justice for stuff that happened in low-sec (where they refuse to go), it really does seem incredibly farsical.


I know the system needs work, but I'm having a hard time jumping on board with the whole high sec players can take advantage of kill rights acquired in low sec crying crap. Both low and high sec are able to have criminal activity take place in them. And seriously, you can survive in lowsec, but you can't manage kill rights in high sec? Come on. seriously?
Nendail Smith
Lockheed Nighthawk
#747 - 2012-10-14 02:46:06 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Nendail Smith wrote:
This post started out good, and then just turned into a cry-fest.

FIrst, trading kill rights is fail for allowing fleets to hunt together as a bounty hunting team/corp. If the kill right can be activated for the entire fleet, Ok I could go with that. But if you're just looking for 1v1 pvp go someplace and fight people who agree to it.

Second a kill right is a result of breaking a law. If a crap load of people want to be vigil ante's than so be it. I kind of dig that aspect of it.

Third, I agree with you that it's complete BS that they a hunter would PAY for a kill right. The mind-set is completely backwards in that this is not a profession if we have to pay to do it. I love the idea of kill-right hunting, but I'm sure as hell not going to pay to do it.

I have nothing against a corporation being able to buy kill rights. I might have forgotten to mention it in that post, but I did mention it in my thread.

edit: actually I did mention it in the quoted post.


my bad on missing it. I'm trying to catch up and skimming pretty quickly. I stand corrected.

Then yeah, I could jump on board with that idea as well.
mkint
#748 - 2012-10-14 03:27:18 UTC
Situation 1: killright with no cost, alt claims it, pops in a rookie ship, wasted killright.

Situation 2: expensive killright eats up the now tiny bounties and is never picked up by anyone. Ever.

What if the killright had an isk value attached based on what ship was lost? You score a billion isk (illegal) kill, expect a billion isk of losses? No benefit to sacrificing a rookie ship or shuttle. Killrights can stay cheap, and thus useful. More stuff dies, fueling the economy.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#749 - 2012-10-14 04:12:10 UTC
Not that I'm a bounty hunter, but I think Destiny Corrupted has a real point.

What if buying a kill right triggered a Limited Engagement between hunter and hunted? Furthermore, what if the LE flag was extended so that it could apply to corps, if that was the right purchased, or to the fleet that the person belonged to at the time that they bought the kill right, if that was the right purchased?

Maybe the most expensive option could be a Suspect flag, if the person really wants to bring mayhem down on someone's head--not that it would necessarily work.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#750 - 2012-10-14 04:25:13 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Not that I'm a bounty hunter, but I think Destiny Corrupted has a real point.

What if buying a kill right triggered a Limited Engagement between hunter and hunted? Furthermore, what if the LE flag was extended so that it could apply to corps, if that was the right purchased, or to the fleet that the person belonged to at the time that they bought the kill right, if that was the right purchased?

Maybe the most expensive option could be a Suspect flag, if the person really wants to bring mayhem down on someone's head--not that it would necessarily work.

It definitely should be some form of limited engagement. Furthermore, this LE should last the duration of the kill right, or until the perp gets killed. This would add risk for the bounty hunter(s). It would be like a war, except against one person, and the bounty hunter gets the first strike capability.

Giving kill rights to individuals or corporations is fine. Fleets or alliances, however, open up the opportunity of severe exploits (lofty-style, but different; EVE vets can figure it out).

The suspect flag should not be an option for this game mechanic at all, unless the kill right is a one-shot deal, but that would be terrible design as well.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Wacktopia
Noir.
The Network.
#751 - 2012-10-14 07:01:11 UTC
Quote:
Kill rights are part of crimewatch, so we had to sync up with Team Five O on their work in refactoring that system. We’re tying into the crimewatch system in two ways:

Kill Rights will now be created at the same time a Criminal flag is put on a player, but only for attacking in hi sec or podding in low sec. RRing a Criminal will not create a kill right (but still puts a Criminal flag on the repper).


Does 'attacking in hi sec' extend to combat while under a war dec? I.e Does killing a player in hi sec whilst under the CONCORD war sanction mean you still get a kill right added?

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#752 - 2012-10-14 07:04:28 UTC
Wacktopia wrote:
Quote:
Kill rights are part of crimewatch, so we had to sync up with Team Five O on their work in refactoring that system. We’re tying into the crimewatch system in two ways:

Kill Rights will now be created at the same time a Criminal flag is put on a player, but only for attacking in hi sec or podding in low sec. RRing a Criminal will not create a kill right (but still puts a Criminal flag on the repper).


Does 'attacking in hi sec' extend to combat while under a war dec? I.e Does killing a player in hi sec whilst under the CONCORD war sanction mean you still get a kill right added?

Killrights are only added when attacking "illegal targets". Wardecs make people "legal targets".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Wacktopia
Noir.
The Network.
#753 - 2012-10-14 07:05:31 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Wacktopia wrote:
Quote:
Kill rights are part of crimewatch, so we had to sync up with Team Five O on their work in refactoring that system. We’re tying into the crimewatch system in two ways:

Kill Rights will now be created at the same time a Criminal flag is put on a player, but only for attacking in hi sec or podding in low sec. RRing a Criminal will not create a kill right (but still puts a Criminal flag on the repper).


Does 'attacking in hi sec' extend to combat while under a war dec? I.e Does killing a player in hi sec whilst under the CONCORD war sanction mean you still get a kill right added?

Killrights are only added when attacking "illegal targets". Wardecs make people "legal targets".


Ta

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

Anton Zuber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#754 - 2012-10-14 07:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Anton Zuber
Okay, well the big debate is clearly the kill rights part, which bothers me too. I admit, the whole idea of it triggering the same suspect flag and making them fair game for all is weird, and very exploitable by as you say, carebears who want to watch someone die without firing a shot themselves.

So I agree that activating a suspect flag is maybe a bad plan.

It could be a 1v1 flag, but that is somewhat limiting. I would like the option at least to bring a few friends for a bounty and split the bounty. So maybe it should share that way naturally to your fleet, splitting the reward and not fussing over who exactly got the last hit.

Another thing to consider is the bit where you activate rights on yourself to clear the kill rights. Consider options for limiting who can accept the bounty. Maybe you contract that out to a few corps that specialize in bounty hunting. Makes it harder for them to take rights on them self with an alt. Having some control over who can and cannot use your kill rights, is important I think.

That's what I've got for now. Maybe some of that helps to promote a better bounty hunting environment. Let me know what you think.

P.S. Another quick thought. Any Bounty Hunter who has rights on you currently should be really obvious in both local and in your overview. I would suggest default red or orange blinky with configuration options in overview. You might also consider an icon on the new list specifically for active Bounty Hunting rights. I don't think there needs to be any delays on activating rights, it just needs to let you know when it happens in a clear way that is easy for the target to understand. Bounty Hunting GOOD! Surprise buttsex? not so much.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#755 - 2012-10-14 09:04:02 UTC
Nendail Smith wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Front-loading pod aggression in low-sec is pretty dumb.

High-sec players have no business claiming kill rights that came from a legitimate ransom where the capsule was let go. If high-sec players wanted to have an impact on low-sec, that's where high-sec players would actually be. Roll

This potentially punishes low-sec pirates for being honest in low-sec if they then go back to high-sec.

That's broken. Don't make high-sec players arbiters of justice for something they want nothing to do with.

Agreed.

This is a less serious issue than the suspect flag bounty hunting hurf blurf they're about to force on us though.

But yeah, front-loading player penalties for ANYTHING is dumb as hell. If I rob a liquor store and the cops shoot my ass and throw me into jail, the store owner doesn't get to come by and pop me in the ass again for self-defense.

Less serious from a technical standpoint perhaps, but not from a risk vs. reward standpoint or an overall design elegance standpoint either, I'd say.

If you think about the convolutedness of high-sec players acting as really bad arbiters of justice for stuff that happened in low-sec (where they refuse to go), it really does seem incredibly farsical.


I know the system needs work, but I'm having a hard time jumping on board with the whole high sec players can take advantage of kill rights acquired in low sec crying crap. Both low and high sec are able to have criminal activity take place in them. And seriously, you can survive in lowsec, but you can't manage kill rights in high sec? Come on. seriously?


It's not like they'll pull the trigger anyway. Roll

If they wanted low-sec style pvp they'd be there.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Megan DeMonet
The RedNeck Posse
#756 - 2012-10-14 13:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Megan DeMonet
i see lots of post binding kill rights and bounty hunting together.

How did kill rights and bounty hunting get tied uo so completely together. Sure you can use the KR system to purchase the rights to kill someone. For some reason everyone seems to be getting the two bound together so tightly that you can seem to see the difference.

I saw a few post about "i dont see why we have to pay for kill rights to bounty hunt" well you dont. you can go about in the same way you always have. Granted almost noone bounty hunts. I tried it, it just didnt seem to be worth my time. Especially since as of now, the only way to get bounty is a pod. It just was not worth my time. Under then new system, true i will get paid bounty for ship kills, but whats the point in that?

Ok, i get 20% of the BC+mods that is killed, so a fully fit cane, ~80mil, i make ~16mil from that. If i go about that the old way (now) then my only real chance is eaiter a WD, which will cost me way more than the payout, or b catch them in lowsec. if you did use the KR activation, assuming there is KRs at all, then again you are probably going to pay more than the lousey 16 mil.

If you go about bounty hunting in the old way, lowsec, atleast you gain a bit of an advantage toward being paid. i.e you get paid for the ship. Of course that give your target KRs on you, which they then turn around and sell. Him and his buddies come into hissec see you sitting fat and happy, activate KRs for 100 mil (he is selling it to himself), and they kill you.

I got a bit off topic, the point is. Kill rights and bounty hunting DO NOT have to go hand in hand. They can be completely seperate.

As far as kill rights, and why sell them. The simple reason is to recoupe some of your losses (if any). Also to have your buddies be able to help you kill the guy that offended you. Because less face it for all of our greed and selfishness, this is a team game when it comes down to fighting. Weather that is a few guys in combat ships to back you up, RR, or just someone giving you insane command bonuses.

Stop thinking like the real world, THIS IS EVE!

A Priest, a Rabbi, and an Imam walk into a bar......

Singeabooty Raj
Doomheim
#757 - 2012-10-14 13:42:30 UTC
Men of the internet the reality here is that while some very valid points / suggestions have been made to the devs in this thread in the main posting here is a futile endeavour.

Getting CCP to change any logical fallacies in what they propose to roll out would be akin to telling the captain of the Titanic that his ship was going to sink prior to leaving port.

Black Man with Goggles

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#758 - 2012-10-14 13:59:21 UTC
Singeabooty Raj wrote:
Men of the internet the reality here is that while some very valid points / suggestions have been made to the devs in this thread in the main posting here is a futile endeavour.

Getting CCP to change any logical fallacies in what they propose to roll out would be akin to telling the captain of the Titanic that his ship was going to sink prior to leaving port.

You're implying there are any logical fallacies. Given the fact that these changes are made squarely to curb "undesired hisec PVP", this system is perfect.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Singeabooty Raj
Doomheim
#759 - 2012-10-14 14:17:54 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Singeabooty Raj wrote:
Men of the internet the reality here is that while some very valid points / suggestions have been made to the devs in this thread in the main posting here is a futile endeavour.

Getting CCP to change any logical fallacies in what they propose to roll out would be akin to telling the captain of the Titanic that his ship was going to sink prior to leaving port.

You're implying there are any logical fallacies. Given the fact that these changes are made squarely to curb "undesired hisec PVP", this system is perfect.

I agree, the expansion will bring yet more pony and rainbow to high sec. My point still remains that posting here wont make CCP change anything as once the ship is fuelled it will still leave port anyhow even if the weather predictions are adverse to setting sail.

Black Man with Goggles

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#760 - 2012-10-14 14:27:15 UTC
Singeabooty Raj wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Singeabooty Raj wrote:
Men of the internet the reality here is that while some very valid points / suggestions have been made to the devs in this thread in the main posting here is a futile endeavour.

Getting CCP to change any logical fallacies in what they propose to roll out would be akin to telling the captain of the Titanic that his ship was going to sink prior to leaving port.

You're implying there are any logical fallacies. Given the fact that these changes are made squarely to curb "undesired hisec PVP", this system is perfect.

I agree, the expansion will bring yet more pony and rainbow to high sec. My point still remains that posting here wont make CCP change anything as once the ship is fuelled it will still leave port anyhow even if the weather predictions are adverse to setting sail.

Obviously, but at least we can point to these posts and say "we objected. vOv"

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat