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Proposal: Make mining operation yield based more on player skill rather than time.

The Guardian Knights
#1 - 2012-10-12 16:57:40 UTC
It's no secret that in Eve whenever the topic of mining comes up, many players simply roll their eyes. Among all the activities in Eve, it would appear that mining is the most passive activity of all to the point where if you are mining in accordance with CCP rules, you will most likely have your web browser open in one window while keeping an eye on your ore hold on the main game screen all the while taking note every moment or so if any hostiles are in the area.

Although CCP has recently given a few "gifts" to miners lately, it is unfortunate that there has been no report of any changes to game play. I think that mining should be more like other professions in the game in that it is more interactive and that attentiveness is rewarded by speeding up the rate in which the ship is able to extract ore.

This post has nothing to do with going after the players using bots but I do believe that by making mining more fun, it can reduce the amount of people using such tools. I believe that people simply use them because mining is dull and boring and the income generated is still less than folks who run higher level missions.

The purpose of this post is simply to generate ideas from the rest of the player base on what sort of changes you believe could make mining more interesting and interactive. Smile
The Guardian Knights
#2 - 2012-10-13 11:57:55 UTC
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#3 - 2012-10-14 01:05:23 UTC
Zorok wrote:

This can be done by introducing additional risk into the profession of mining.

Risk adds value because it requires skill to overcome.

Risk is a healthy barrier to acquisition.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

The Guardian Knights
#4 - 2012-10-14 08:07:49 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Zorok wrote:

This can be done by introducing additional risk into the profession of mining.

Risk adds value because it requires skill to overcome.

Risk is a healthy barrier to acquisition.

What sort of risk are you referring to? PvE missions, for example, are more interactive and I believe that what makes them more enjoyable to do as compared to mining where you just sit there mining. The inherent risk in mining is really dependent on the conditions in the local area. Wormhole mining is the most dangerous followed by low-sec and finally null and high sec.

I can tell you that the fear of being attacked does not add to the "fun" factor of mining in any way whatsoever. I would say that it actually make mining less fun and less desirable of an activity due to the fact that other activities such as mission running or exploration are more safe since you are not a sitting target.

The point of the thread was not to talk about the risk vs. reward of mining but to simply say that I think that the fundamentals of mining have been unchanged since Eve first came out. The mining barge was the only recent addition. I believe that mining could be made more enjoyable by perhaps adding a second method of collecting ore from the asteroids which requires more interaction. I didn't want to throw ideas out there but just to give an example perhaps mining could also be performed by flying a new type of ship that applies a charge to the asteroid and the asteroid is remotely detonated. The resulting fragments would then need to be run through a ship equipped with a sort of grinding apparatus and tractor beams which would pull in the chunks of ore. The speed at which this is done would depend on the skills of the pilot. To make it even more challenging, perhaps even some pieces would need to be avoided as they would cause damage to the grinding apparatus if they were to be processed. This method of mining would be much more involved because the pilot would be focused on destroying and then processing the resulting debris.

This is just an example but I want to know what anyone else out there thinks. I think that keeping the passive method of mining may be alright but I am hoping to see an alternative method which will speed up the process with the necessity of having the pilot interact more during the process. I don't want to see mining become something as nebulous as the overall manufacturing process but something that is more enjoyable for those wishing to take more control of the operation.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-10-14 23:52:58 UTC
Here is an idea (without raising anybody's hopes that anything like this will ever be implemented):

Get rid of the static ore yield. Make the yield of each individual asteroid change over time. The change should be random, but a smooth transition - so a high yield asteroid will stay that way for several minutes and then the yield will smoothly fall off, it won't just suddenly drop. The asteroid's yield is then multiplied by your ship's yield to determine how much ore you get.

Next, change the survey scanner to a single target module. The scanner will tell you the yield of the targeted asteroid, and if you keep running it, it will draw a graph of yield over time. You can then observe the pattern and see if it's rising or dropping.

This means that in order to get the most ore for your time, you have to keep an eye on several asteroids, and switch your mining target as the yield of your asteroid decreases. This would have several results:

* AFK mining is still possible, but your yield will be much lower than that of somebody who is actively watching the game.
* Mining in groups is even more beneficial, as more people can keep an eye on more asteroids at the same time, and all switch target when one asteroid increases its yield. This requires at least a basic form of communication (broadcasting the highest yield rocks), thus is at least a degree less "boring" than the current system.
* A new fitting consideration is introduced: do you fit more scanners and devote more time and attention to scanning and getting the best pick of the belt, or do you fit for more raw yield on your miners and survivability?
* As an unintended consequence, 0.0 mining can be easily fixed: just make the average yield of asteroids in lower security areas much higher. So a veldspar rock in a -0.9 will, on average, produce more veldspar than one in +0.7. However, a dedicated miner watching their rocks should still be able to pull decent amounts of ore from a highsec rock compared to an AFK miner in nullsec.
True To Life Industries
#6 - 2012-10-20 02:51:38 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Zorok wrote:

This can be done by introducing additional risk into the profession of mining.

Risk adds value because it requires skill to overcome.

Risk is a healthy barrier to acquisition.

First off I'm laughing with no humor here. If your saying we need to add risk to mining it shows you've NEVER been into mining. Our whole existence is a risk, you can't run, you cant hide, you can only fight rats. Add the hulkedon and its massive group of pimply faced retards looking for yet another reason for an easy gank and the picture gets more dismal. Miners are the few in the game that each year have to ask themselves - "do I want to stop literally playing my game for one whole week of payed time? or do I want to chance losing a hundreds of millions in a split second." The only value risk adds to a miner is the value of stomach ulcers. Ok so I've kicked that useless horse enough. Moving on..


My biggest gripe. So follow me here for a second. When an asteroid is depleted it VANISHES. So can you tell me HOW my strip miner spent the last 3 minutes strip mining a ghost? At what point did tangible matter turn into a mirage because thats all your mining.
Using a Survey Scanner barely helps even when your sitting there button mashing the thing for hopeful updates. I WISH WISH WISH EvE would add logic to this. When an asteroid is depleted your strip miner should auto shut off, NOT keep cycling for 4 more minutes. OR at least add a Survey scanner for the micro manager that will allow you to constantly monitor the ore depleting!

As result of EvE NOT doing anything about it there are these two options.

1. Survey scan till asteroid is mostly gone then button mash your strip miners off and on so you don't waste time. If every 10 min you spend 3 min uselessly mining - do the math, that is a LOT of wasted time. Button mashing your strip miners is
by far not the way to go either.

2. Avoid all this and scan till an asteroid is 80% empty and move on. UNTIL THE NEXT MINER COMES ALONG AND FINDS AN ENTIRE ASTEROID BELT THATS USELESS!! Because every asteroid has about 1,000 units left in it. And this has happened more than I want to talk about. I would cuss and swear here accept that won't cut the frustration.

Please EvE!? Miners ARE the very core of EvE, without us EvE won't be able to field 90% of their ships for ANYTHING. Mining is already patience demanding beyond measure. Add a couple lines of code for a simple auto shutoff is all I ask. Survey scanners are next to useless.

Now last but not least - a THANK YOU to EvE. I was partially bummed but at the same time pleased at the new changes to the strip miners. Yes some of our options were cut BUT we were presented with a good deal more. Null sec is now open to mine by the heavy risk takers. Prices have dropped on some ores and those complaining are vastly the mega corps that are angry at having to share with the little guy.
The new extended ore hold on the Mackinaw is fantastic. Now for those that can't get a whole group of transports to back them up we can happily mine without having to jettison cargo and have it stolen and then get blown up by some half equipped BS that's passing by. (that was partially a jab at the guy that suggested more risk taking for we miners)
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
White Light Liberation
#7 - 2012-10-20 14:39:25 UTC need to change any of the eve mechanics to make mining more interesting.
Just try to mine in is **thrilling** and heart pounding. And, the logistics aspect to get materials back to high sec has its own rewards, especially with pos management.

So, honestly.....what CCP needs to do to make mining a good profession:
- Mining yield outside of highsec has to rise....yes, profit right now is mostly based on how much time is spent mining and lowsec/nullsec can't compete with a 100% safe environment, unless the yield of highsec is reduced and yield of low/null is increased. Low sec miners are lucky to get 20% of the mining time that they would have received in assuming roids are equal and they almost are these days, they need a 500% yield increase to be equiv to high sec profit.
- Allow mining corps to somehow build up defenses in lowsec belts...yes, they have a pos in the system perhaps but it provides no assistance outside....and a pirate can hunt through belts and find any miners in them in under a minute, sometimes just seconds. This environment greatly favors the pvp focused pilot rather than miners. It has almost completely driven out the entire mining professional from lowsec. So, perhaps have some way for miners to invest in defenses for individual belts..a new skill that controls efficiency and a miner is limited to 1 improved belt per char which must be associated with a POS. The defenses should cost isk and be more of a way to give the miner more time to get himself to safety than any real protection. I'm thinking of an additional pos module that redirects some of the pos shield out towards the nearest belt...not sure of the mechanics yet, but it sure would liven things up and get miners into lowsec and in that environment - No one would be calling the profession AFK, boring, or dull.
Atrament Inc.
#8 - 2012-10-28 17:33:52 UTC
Mining Yield = skill * time * interaction

That's what I want to see.