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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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Author
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#721 - 2012-10-13 22:19:34 UTC
Gris X wrote:
First, if I am dedicated to acquire a kill right on a quarry from someone else, I will probably wait to do so to be in the best position to maximise my attack's chance of success, especially if I know that the money I spend is not being refunded if my quarry slips away.

I'm going to just stop you right there. If you're in the position to "aquire a killright from someone else", that "killright" is publically available. Which means that if someone had a killright on me, which they put up for public activation, then I can activate it at my own choosing.

Gris X wrote:
I am still not sold on how it will effectively foster a valid bounty hunter profession in the game, as fundamentally someone can simply not do any action to generate KillRights to never have to worry about being hunted, even if a significant contract/bounty has been put on their head... Like I mentioned in previous posts, I'd like to see an option where a bounty hunter can focus on hunting one target for a fee, even if this target avoids providing kill rights against them.

It won't foster a bountyhunter profession in any way, shape or form. All it'll do is foster vigilantism until hisec PVP goes away in its entirety.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Gris X
Scions of Karishal
Chao3 Alliance
#722 - 2012-10-13 22:23:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Gris X
Lord Zim wrote:
Gris X wrote:
First, if I am dedicated to acquire a kill right on a quarry from someone else, I will probably wait to do so to be in the best position to maximise my attack's chance of success, especially if I know that the money I spend is not being refunded if my quarry slips away.

I'm going to just stop you right there. If you're in the position to "aquire a killright from someone else", that "killright" is publically available. Which means that if someone had a killright on me, which they put up for public activation, then I can activate it at my own choosing.


Sure, and pay the seller the sum he estimates fair for having received this kill right. Then you can discard it through your alt.
We agree there.


Lord Zim wrote:
Gris X wrote:
I am still not sold on how it will effectively foster a valid bounty hunter profession in the game, as fundamentally someone can simply not do any action to generate KillRights to never have to worry about being hunted, even if a significant contract/bounty has been put on their head... Like I mentioned in previous posts, I'd like to see an option where a bounty hunter can focus on hunting one target for a fee, even if this target avoids providing kill rights against them.

It won't foster a bountyhunter profession in any way, shape or form.


Again we agree Big smile
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#723 - 2012-10-13 22:48:34 UTC
Some of you have seen my thread in GD. I will now offer my input on the new system in this one, so that the devs can properly consider my viewpoint.

First of all, I would like to say that the bounty portion of these changes is quite nice. It's definitely a step in the right direction, and I don't see any significant flaws in it.

Having said that, let me tell you why the kill rights portion of the changes is ridiculous beyond justification:

First and foremost, this system spits in the face of the concept of being a bounty hunter. As I said in my thread, bounty-hunters have risk. Bounty-hunters do work for money, not pay money for work. Bounty-hunters don't want random people interfering in their work. Apparently CCP passed right over those concepts and went straight for making bounty hunting as close to a pve experience as possible.

To create a system in which the "bounty hunter" not only relies on random passerby to do his work for him, but indeed doesn't even have to expose himself to a modicum of risk, is completely absurd. What kind of bounty hunter just sits back and waits for random civvies to bag his target? This is a total cop-out. CCP is not delivering a feature that players have been asking for for so long.

There are other downsides to this system, aside from player satisfaction and realism. For example, this new system will not result in an increase in pvp quantity, or an increase in pvp quality, as many people have claimed. In fact, it will do the exact opposite. The reason for that, as I said multiple times, would be the prevalence of blobs used to ensure victory. People simply won't commit crimes unless they have the support base to deter full systems of neutrals interfering. There will be exceptions in less-populated areas, but generally this will be the rule.

Lots of people claim that pvpers should like this change, otherwise they're hypocrites and aren't all that hot about pvp to begin with. That's like saying "well you like pvp, so you should like either being forced to dock or being guaranteed to lose your ship every engagement." Like I said above, people will only fight when they know their situation isn't hopeless. When I'm flagged to an entire corporation, the odds may be stacked, but the situation isn't hopeless. When I'm flagged to the whole universe, the situation is hopeless because there can be so many people around that I have zero chance of winning unless I use a massive logistics blob.

Therefore, I have two viable options: (1) not fight at all, or (2) use so much backup that people quickly learn not to shoot suspects (from theft or kill rights, it doesn't matter). Either way, the quantity and quality of pvp will decrease.

Here is some supporting information for my argument:

Many years ago, when can-baiting was initially introduced, EVE went through the same thing. After the first few weeks, people quickly learned not to take from bait cans, or even to engage players who took from their cans/wrecks, because the party doing the "baiting" always turned out to be superior in combat. The exact same thing will happen this time. People will quickly learn not to shoot the suspects after getting trounced by the suspects and their infinite logistics backup.

The only difference is that while can-flagging created a new avenue for combat and retaliation from scratch (and thus leading to a net increase in total pvp), the new kill rights system will change a system that currently works, and could potentially work even better by making kill rights work only for the person who activates them, into a system that will be avoided entirely. Also keep in mind, this system will do nothing to deter the usage of alts in suicide-ganking, and anyone who uses a primary character for the task today will just roll an alt. They will not care about losing destroyers to kill rights on those alts.

Finally, as has been mentioned too many times to count, it will be extremely easy to game the system via the use of alts.

The Solution:

This is really quite simple. Make kill rights a tradeable item, able to be given/sold to either players or corporations. This would make the bounty hunting profession true to its name, balanced, and fun. Instead of toggling FFA flags on the perps, dedicated bounty hunting organizations will be able to take on contracts from the victims and pursue their targets according to standard kill right rules. This would add both an element of risk and an element of reward to the bounty hunting profession; the risk would come from actually having to go after your target instead of relying on uninvolved, neutral players to do the work for you, and the reward would come from having exclusive rights to the target's loot and bounty.

Really, CCP, this is a no-brainer. If you make this change, it would quite possibly be your best accomplishment in regards to pvp. It would be downright legendary, and word-of-mouth would travel fast. In fact, this would also make the suspect flag for can theft a tolerable feature as well.

Please heed my words.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Anton Zuber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#724 - 2012-10-13 22:52:05 UTC
Okay, a good point has been raised. If someone dodges an attack, docks, swaps to a shuttle and then suicides in it, the kill right goes away, but not the bounty. And maybe that's a bit of a problem.

Has anyone considered the flipside to this? What about the guy who makes this whole kill rights thing into a scam. Yea, that's right. a Scam. Give kill rights to your own alt. Sell them for a high, but not completely outrageous amount of money. And troll around in crowded systems in a ship that is stubbornly resistant to being ganked. Make a career out of ducking the bounty hunters. Get paid for each escape because you put the rights on there yourself from your alt. There could be real money in that.

Think about it.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#725 - 2012-10-13 22:56:01 UTC
Anton Zuber wrote:
Okay, a good point has been raised. If someone dodges an attack, docks, swaps to a shuttle and then suicides in it, the kill right goes away, but not the bounty. And maybe that's a bit of a problem.

Has anyone considered the flipside to this? What about the guy who makes this whole kill rights thing into a scam. Yea, that's right. a Scam. Give kill rights to your own alt. Sell them for a high, but not completely outrageous amount of money. And troll around in crowded systems in a ship that is stubbornly resistant to being ganked. Make a career out of ducking the bounty hunters. Get paid for each escape because you put the rights on there yourself from your alt. There could be real money in that.

Think about it.

We already thought about it. Yes, this is a positive aspect of an otherwise terrible change. It still doesn't justify everything that's bad about it.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#726 - 2012-10-13 23:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Front-loading pod aggression in low-sec is pretty dumb.

High-sec players have no business claiming kill rights that came from a legitimate ransom where the capsule was let go. If high-sec players wanted to have an impact on low-sec, that's where high-sec players would actually be. Roll

This potentially punishes low-sec pirates for being honest in low-sec if they then go back to high-sec.

That's broken. Don't make high-sec players arbiters of justice for something they want nothing to do with.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#727 - 2012-10-13 23:14:39 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Front-loading pod aggression in low-sec is pretty dumb.

High-sec players have no business claiming kill rights that came from a legitimate ransom where the capsule was let go. If high-sec players wanted to have an impact on low-sec, that's where high-sec players would actually be. Roll

This potentially punishes low-sec pirates for being honest in low-sec if they then go back to high-sec.

That's broken. Don't make high-sec players arbiters of justice for something they want nothing to do with.

Agreed.

This is a less serious issue than the suspect flag bounty hunting hurf blurf they're about to force on us though.

But yeah, front-loading player penalties for ANYTHING is dumb as hell. If I rob a liquor store and the cops shoot my ass and throw me into jail, the store owner doesn't get to come by and pop me in the ass again for self-defense.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#728 - 2012-10-13 23:14:40 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Not if what you want to achieve is the complete and utter eradication of hisec "griefing". The system CCP is coming up with is perfect for that purpose.

It's almost as if CCP had that in mind when they designed it.

Yeah, almost.

Canflipping has been completely legal (with only the guy you're flipping and his corp being able to enact retribution) for years, but apparently this suddenly needs fixing. I presume it's a "stealth" (lol it's not stealthy at all) nerf to ganking for profit since anyone taking anything from any container in space which isn't theirs means they're flagged as suspect, i.e. everyone can shoot at them. Suspiciously enough, this came about after 50b (or thereabouts) freighters were getting ganked with a bit more regularity. Yes, people are that dumb.

And now they're trying to sneak in a killright transference which, again, means that everyone can shoot at them the instant it is activated, presumably again to curb hisec ganking as much as possible.

Gris X wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Gris X wrote:
First, if I am dedicated to acquire a kill right on a quarry from someone else, I will probably wait to do so to be in the best position to maximise my attack's chance of success, especially if I know that the money I spend is not being refunded if my quarry slips away.

I'm going to just stop you right there. If you're in the position to "aquire a killright from someone else", that "killright" is publically available. Which means that if someone had a killright on me, which they put up for public activation, then I can activate it at my own choosing.


Sure, and pay the seller the sum he estimates fair for having received this kill right and discarded it through his alt.
We agree there.

Actually, I've got a few concerns.

If the wording in the devblog means what I think it means, then there might not be a reason to transfer any killrights at all, all you have to do is keep on activating the killright either every 15 minutes (until someone shoots his ship regardless of whether or not he's flying around in a noobship or a bling ship) or just stalk him for 30 days and activate the killright when the opportunity is ripe. Maybe make an alt to stalk him with, so he can't see your name in local and prepare accordingly.

Or, if a nonpublic killright can't be reactivated time and time again and the money used to activate a public killright goes to the killright owner, one way of ensuring the killright isn't used by the ganker is to make an alt, give that alt 1b, make each activation cost 1b, and keep transferring the 1b to that alt and keep stalking the ganker for 30 days and activating the killright time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and again, until he's killed by the vigilantes.

I know Stoffer said he doesn't want to completely remove hisec aggression or griefing, but if these changes (the canflipping/wreck looting ==> suspect, and killrights == perpetual and random activation of suspect status) actually go public, then he may not strictly speaking be trying to completely remove hisec aggression or griefing, but that's only because we're wordlawyering. In reality, these changes make it so undesirable for anyone but the most dedicated person to spend their time doing any of these things that in effect he'll be getting as close to hello kitty online as he can, without actually removing aggression or griefing entirely.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#729 - 2012-10-13 23:27:50 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Front-loading pod aggression in low-sec is pretty dumb.

High-sec players have no business claiming kill rights that came from a legitimate ransom where the capsule was let go. If high-sec players wanted to have an impact on low-sec, that's where high-sec players would actually be. Roll

This potentially punishes low-sec pirates for being honest in low-sec if they then go back to high-sec.

That's broken. Don't make high-sec players arbiters of justice for something they want nothing to do with.

Agreed.

This is a less serious issue than the suspect flag bounty hunting hurf blurf they're about to force on us though.

But yeah, front-loading player penalties for ANYTHING is dumb as hell. If I rob a liquor store and the cops shoot my ass and throw me into jail, the store owner doesn't get to come by and pop me in the ass again for self-defense.

Less serious from a technical standpoint perhaps, but not from a risk vs. reward standpoint or an overall design elegance standpoint either, I'd say.

If you think about the convolutedness of high-sec players acting as really bad arbiters of justice for stuff that happened in low-sec (where they refuse to go), it really does seem incredibly farsical.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#730 - 2012-10-13 23:31:47 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
In reality, these changes make it so undesirable for anyone but the most dedicated person to spend their time doing any of these things that in effect he'll be getting as close to hello kitty online as he can, without actually removing aggression or griefing entirely.

Considering that CCP has openly admitted they were going for the easiest thing to program when it came to a new crimewatch system, I'm not at all surprised we have this mess, intended or not. I predict silence, and resolute determination in the "rightness" of the proposed system from CCP, and I seriously hope I'm wrong in that prediction.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
#731 - 2012-10-13 23:32:19 UTC
I wanted to have a career in bounty hunting in eve back in 2003 then found out the mechanic was broken. now it's 2012 and i can pursue my dream....yay!
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#732 - 2012-10-13 23:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
It really seems to me like they're trying to give the carebears the ability to experience pvp without actually having to shoot at anyone, or risk getting shot.

You know those new-age "hunting" businesses that give people a 40-minute course and then take them out to kill a rabbit or something, but the instructor is the one actually pulling the trigger, and then the cook in the kitchen prepares it for them without the customer ever having to touch the fresh kill?

It reminds me of that.

Red Teufel wrote:
I wanted to have a career in bounty hunting in eve back in 2003 then found out the mechanic was broken. now it's 2012 and i can pursue my dream....yay!

Your dream was to be a bounty hunter who never actually has to face his target in combat? Setting the sights a bit low, don't you think?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#733 - 2012-10-13 23:34:00 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
In reality, these changes make it so undesirable for anyone but the most dedicated person to spend their time doing any of these things that in effect he'll be getting as close to hello kitty online as he can, without actually removing aggression or griefing entirely.

Considering that CCP has openly admitted they were going for the easiest thing to program when it came to a new crimewatch system, I'm not at all surprised we have this mess, intended or not. I predict silence, and resolute determination in the "rightness" of the proposed system from CCP, and I seriously hope I'm wrong in that prediction.

I predict another episode of 4x4'ing through the sandbox if this is the case.

One hopes that there is enough time left in the development cycle to address some of the major issues.

Doesn't one?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858
Heroes and Villains.
#734 - 2012-10-13 23:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Boom Boom Longtime
I currently have 12b bounty which I have been trying to lose for a while without success :(

Hopefully somebody will saddle up and rid me of the burden prior to expansion (Bio for details).

Post expansion regardless of the changes i expect initial fertile grazzing grounds as sheep confused absent understanding the shepherd will surely mean nice cuts of meat for the predators.

Edit: and i refer to new bounties under the new mechanic not the existing one

Concord Approved Trader

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#735 - 2012-10-13 23:52:58 UTC
We're trying to get a message across to CCP and you gotta do that **** here? Seriously? What?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858
Heroes and Villains.
#736 - 2012-10-13 23:56:52 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
We're trying to get a message across to CCP and you gotta do that **** here? Seriously? What?

that directed at me or somebody else ?

Concord Approved Trader

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#737 - 2012-10-14 00:02:40 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
How about an overview option to show folks with bounties ... this should be configurable by amount. If I want to only show people with a 100M ISK bounty or more, for instance. Use the colour blue, by default.

It being configurable is important, otherwise entire corporations will put 1 ISK bounties on all their members to muck up overview entries.


there is already such an option, it's off by default

but it's not configurable



The option doesn't work very well as it is because of how overview filtering works.

Where I am.

Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858
Heroes and Villains.
#738 - 2012-10-14 00:15:05 UTC
Cut through the shizzle and retribution is an attempt to nuke ganking in high sec. Bounty system changes nothing in the main other than offering more incentives during war decs. One will not gank a 1b ship in high sec for 200m reward outwith concord intervention..its a loss never mind a profit. Never mind the fact if you try you can in effect get pawned by the masses by anybody who activates the rights for 30 days subsequently. Its actually very sly by ccp to suggest a new gamestyle when the reality is they know they are at the very least attempting to subdue another playstyle that they perceive loses or prevents the retention of subs.

Concord Approved Trader

Gris X
Scions of Karishal
Chao3 Alliance
#739 - 2012-10-14 00:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Gris X
Lord Zim wrote:

If the wording in the devblog means what I think it means, then there might not be a reason to transfer any killrights at all, all you have to do is keep on activating the killright either every 15 minutes (until someone shoots his ship regardless of whether or not he's flying around in a noobship or a bling ship) or just stalk him for 30 days and activate the killright when the opportunity is ripe. Maybe make an alt to stalk him with, so he can't see your name in local and prepare accordingly.


Unless I am mistaken, I think you have to be in the same system, on grid, to activate a kill right (your own or one you bought) which makes activating your own killright continually on a target at best difficult to do as it would require following the target around without any mistakes... as for kill rights that have been bought, they have to be bought again for each activation, if I understood things right..
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#740 - 2012-10-14 00:42:32 UTC
Gris X wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, I think you have to be in the same system, on grid, to activate a kill right (your own or one you bought) which makes activating your own killright continually on a target at best difficult to do as it would require following the target around without any mistakes...

At this point I'm pretty much just assuming the worst when it comes to CCP's idea of a great new mechanic. And it doesn't have to be continually, it's enough if you just activate it whenever there's a chance he can get caught.

Gris X wrote:
as for kill rights that have been bought, they have to be bought again for each activation, if I understood things right..

And if the isk spent purchasing the killright goes to the killright owner, he can just set the price at, say, 1b, and keep transferring that 1b to the alt to keep stalking and activating on him, for free.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat