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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#601 - 2012-10-12 19:46:43 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:

I believe (I have faith!) that people will mostly be putting bounties on people that annoy them, not just random people in local.. you can be a pretty annoying forum poster but a nice person in game so you might want to place bounty on that guy

I think that if you're a nice person in general people are going to leave you alone

that said, there are of course mean people that'll suicide gank anyone, with or without bounties

but I'll also point out I'm not a game designer, I'm just a brogrammer Big smile


I forsee a future where every EvE player has a bounty on their heads... This is EvE, CCP Punkturis, we play it because we're not "nice" people.

So in theory I could place a huge bounty of every pc born between say 1 Dec 2012 and 31 Dec 2012 (because lets say I have isk to burn and I'm bored), that will stay with them throughout their EvE career, so that one day when they get enough isk to get a shiny ship (which they will fly stupidly), I can have the rest of eve teach them a couple lessons (in case I'm not on to do it myself). Fascinating.....
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#602 - 2012-10-12 19:48:47 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Sec status, which the old bounties were based on, is NOT an indicator of a "good guy"!!! And if you are teaching that to people, then you are doing them a DISSERVICE... and need to stop!!!

A bounty system, where bounties can be placed on you by ANYONE is a far, far better barometer for good and not so good EvE players... Good players, that don't go out of their way to **** other players off, will rarely get bounties on them. Why would they?? I honestly think you're a scammer that is afraid his good guy facade will be ruined when people put a bounty on your head for scamming them.... why else would you be so fearful of this change??


No! You are wrong. No scammer or something. Just a missionrunner with another char.
I never "teached that bounty is an indicator of a good guy". That is the idea EVERY new player will have itself. Roll

Your last sentence "Why I hate this change" shows me, that you have not red the post at once.
One more time. It is a bad Idea. And I am not a scammer or PvPler etc. I am just worried to have a bounty on my head which leads to the presumption (from new players) that I am not a trustworthy person. That is all.


I have read almost every single one of your posts in this thread....

Your simple complaint is now:
If someone puts a bounty on your head, other people might think you are untrustworthy....

My reply is: So What?? If it's that big a deal for you, use your Alt to kill your main and remove the bounty!! And frankly, if you were noticed enough to get a bounty, then you deserve the mistrust it portrays... And finally, why is it bad for the game if people assume your untrustworthy?? I'm fairly certain having that assumption about you is a very healthy!!!

This in NO WAY makes unrestricted bounties a bad idea. So, please bring up another reason...
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#603 - 2012-10-12 19:49:34 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:


hey I already told you I'm not a game designer, I don't know why you care so much about my opinion on itBig smile but I like that you're a nice guy and help new players, it's really cute :3



Alexander, dude I'm sorry man it sounds like Punkturis just put you in the friends zone. Sad

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#604 - 2012-10-12 19:52:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Alexander Renoir wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Sec status, which the old bounties were based on, is NOT an indicator of a "good guy"!!! And if you are teaching that to people, then you are doing them a DISSERVICE... and need to stop!!!

A bounty system, where bounties can be placed on you by ANYONE is a far, far better barometer for good and not so good EvE players... Good players, that don't go out of their way to **** other players off, will rarely get bounties on them. Why would they?? I honestly think you're a scammer that is afraid his good guy facade will be ruined when people put a bounty on your head for scamming them.... why else would you be so fearful of this change??


No! You are wrong. No scammer or something. Just a missionrunner with another char.
I never "teached that bounty is an indicator of a good guy". That is the idea EVERY new player will have itself. Roll

Your last sentence "Why I hate this change" shows me, that you have not red the post at once.
One more time. It is a bad Idea. And I am not a scammer or PvPler etc. I am just worried to have a bounty on my head which leads to the presumption (from new players) that I am not a trustworthy person. That is all.



Your first lesson to them can be....

"Bounties are meaningless, you can get them for all kinds of reasons. Pod pilots, by nature, are self interested. Space naturally, is lawless in EVE."
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#605 - 2012-10-12 20:10:03 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:


hey I already told you I'm not a game designer, I don't know why you care so much about my opinion on itBig smile but I like that you're a nice guy and help new players, it's really cute :3



Alexander, dude I'm sorry man it sounds like Punkturis just put you in the friends zone. Sad


*raises an eye brow* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSwsJtSfyXU

But jesting and niffty songs aside. Sec status should not be used as a metric for allowing or disallowing a bounty. So that means everyone should be fair game to have a price on their head. Much like in real life. These are personally placed bounties and that means they don't have to be rooted in wither or not you are a "good" chap or not.

mkint
#606 - 2012-10-12 20:17:32 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
@ Punkturis please try to answer:
Why do you at CCP think that it would be a good idea to implement a new anonymous tool to be able to harass players, who never ever did criminal acts to others?



Why this? Someone who never played offensive and just wants to play WITHOUT beeing a pirat, ganker or a$$hole and just wants to fly his missions, build ships or mines will now get bountys. WHY?
You state that:

CCP Punkturis wrote:

I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?


When there is no diference .. why this option to anonymous griefe a person with a positive security rating with bounty who never did criminal acts?
I never did criminals acts because I never wanted a bounty! Now every player is able to add an bounty to me although I never did harm him/her.
Kilo
I thought that the bounty system is administrated from CONCORD; the police in EVE. But now even good players will get bounties just for fun. THAT makes no sense.
Keep the option to place bountys to REAL CRIMINALS with negative security rating .. not to someone who never played like an a$$hole!


I believe (I have faith!) that people will mostly be putting bounties on people that annoy them, not just random people in local.. you can be a pretty annoying forum poster but a nice person in game so you might want to place bounty on that guy

I think that if you're a nice person in general people are going to leave you alone

that said, there are of course mean people that'll suicide gank anyone, with or without bounties

but I'll also point out I'm not a game designer, I'm just a brogrammer Big smile



Sorry, but I do not have your faith. People annoy other people JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN! It was ever so in EVE. Why do you think that there will be a change and that all people will use the new bounty system as intented? That will NOT happen. It is the nature of eve that there will be griefing. They need no reason.
But perhaps I can use this new system to show you that you do NOT need a special reason to get a bounty. All I have to do is waiting and set a few 100k ISK on some CCP's as soon as this crap goes online. Roll


I didn't say it wouldn't be, I said I think it will mostly be used to place bounty on annoying people!

but I mean people already gank nice people, do you think they'll start doing so much more of that now if they have bounties on them?

also, I'l say it again, your sec status in space doesn't have to say that you're not annoying, you could be super annoying on the forums!

Frighter pilot getting ganked: what are you doing? Leave me alone!
Gankers: lol, 500 mil bounty. Next time say thank you!

Miner gets can flipped. Steals ore back and docks without dying. BOUNTY!

Whatever the most ass hole thing you can think of, it will become common practice. After all this is eve

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#607 - 2012-10-12 20:28:41 UTC
Quote:
Kill rights are bought “on the spot” in space, i.e. if you select a player in space and that player has a kill right on him for sale, you can buy & activate (one action) it right then and there. This immediately puts a Suspect Flag on the target, thus allowing you and others in your vicinity to attack the target. If the target player is killed while under a Suspect flag, then the kill right is ‘spent’. If the target manages to escape and the Suspect flag timer (15 minutes) lapses, the kill right is still available to be purchased (activated) later on.


Underlined part is a problem. What is to prevent target of a killright to use an alt or a friend to kill himself while in some cheap/noob ship just to expend killright? Killrights should remain active for entire length of 30 days regardless of how many time mark is killed, or ad least until some minim amount of ISK damage is inflicted.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#608 - 2012-10-12 20:44:19 UTC
Chribba wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Jas Dor wrote:
Will it be possible to place a bounty on an NPC noob corporation?


no you can only place bounty on player corporations

But pilot(+ship) in NPC corp right? Else this whole Bounty Hunting concept is broken and utterly useless...


you can place bounty on characters, player corporations or alliances

not ship types and not npc corps

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
space ganelon
The Mining Corp
#609 - 2012-10-12 20:47:02 UTC
What you guys are all missing is that the new KR mechanism makes it so anyone who gets a KR anymore will probably *enjoy* someone having KR on them. PvPer attitude to more potential PvP is "bring it, baby!" not "OMG! must shed KR before someone violences me!"

Whole new KR mechanism makes it so Sunday pirates much less likely to ever get KR placed on themselves.
EmmaFromMarketing
Prospect Theory
#610 - 2012-10-12 21:09:23 UTC
mkint wrote:

Frighter pilot getting ganked: what are you doing? Leave me alone!
Gankers: lol, 500 mil bounty. Next time say thank you!

Miner gets can flipped. Steals ore back and docks without dying. BOUNTY!

Whatever the most ass hole thing you can think of, it will become common practice. After all this is eve


What's a Frighter?
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#611 - 2012-10-12 21:11:58 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Yeah, this is a bad thing, and respectfully I would ask you to take a second look at it and its potential to be abused, especially since I can now place a bounty, anonymously, on anyone at all for any reason. The victim should at least know who did it, y'know?


We have been actively discussing this for a while. This is one of the key reasons for the dev blog, we are asking you guys for your thoughts.

And I see more and more people ask about this. So that is good to see.

Personally, I think it's awesome that bounties are anonymous and I implore you not to change that.


I would rather they make it settable when placing the bounty. By default, you are not revealed. Much like adding a contact to your watchlist is today. Give me the option to notify them.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#612 - 2012-10-12 21:18:04 UTC
Veryez wrote:

I forsee a future where every EvE player has a bounty on their heads... This is EvE, CCP Punkturis, we play it because we're not "nice" people.

So in theory I could place a huge bounty of every pc born between say 1 Dec 2012 and 31 Dec 2012 (because lets say I have isk to burn and I'm bored), that will stay with them throughout their EvE career, so that one day when they get enough isk to get a shiny ship (which they will fly stupidly), I can have the rest of eve teach them a couple lessons (in case I'm not on to do it myself). Fascinating.....


1.) Why would it stay with them throughout there EvE Career??? Bounties are easy to remove... just have someone blow up your ship!!! You can even do this in exciting ways like getting in a cruiser and flying out to low or null and finding a fight...

2.) Even if you spend a trillion isk putting 1b isk bounties on strangers, how does this hurt them??? It doesn't.... at all.... and what's more, is it rewards EvE players that actually shoot other ships... which is good for EvE...
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#613 - 2012-10-12 21:27:52 UTC
Not sure if anyone has thought of this yet, but CCP really needs to keep alts in mind. Two things come up IMMEDIATELY after reading the "future" patch notes:

1. Undock in a shuttle. An alt activates the kill right. Blows up shuttle. Kill right completed.

and

2. What's to prevent someone from killing an alt, and selling the kill rights on that alt while just sitting on a station in a shiny ship? Do it in a busy system, Like Amarr, Rens, or (god forbid) Jita and I'm pretty sure you can scam ISK like this all month long (until the killright runs out)

Just some thoughts for Team Superfriends

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#614 - 2012-10-12 21:32:26 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:


I believe (I have faith!) that people will mostly be putting bounties on people that annoy them, not just random people in local.. you can be a pretty annoying forum poster but a nice person in game so you might want to place bounty on that guy

I think that if you're a nice person in general people are going to leave you alone



I think you underestimate the EVE playerbase a bit Punkturis Blink. There is a reason why aspects of this game are specifically labeled as griefing and bannable in other MMO's while they are allowed here. Jita alone has more scams on a given day than the entire population of Iceland.

Although I am not so strong in my arguments as Alexander here, his points do have merit: As bounties have no expiration period, all of it will remain on a character, even if that bounty is only minimal. Some form of mediation is needed here. One of the reasons I remained in the NPC starter corp is because I can help new players this way. More than often, their questions are not answered in the rookie help or general help chat. Our corp chat is often a question and answer chat, which is what you would expect from a NPC starter corp.

However, if players can see that I have a bounty on my head, they may doubt my motives or actions.

Punkturis, people have money to burn. Why do you think officer modules are worth billions. Heck the Goons made a trillion each month with their tech moons a few months ago. It will be too easy to just add millions of bounty on anyone that disagrees with you on the forums, or also mines in the same field that you happen to mine in, or someone that sells the same stuff as you in a contract, but at a lower price. The possibilities are endless. And that's not what a bounty system should cover.

I applaud your effort, I really do. But generalizing it across the board affecting everyone including my 69-year old dad who has absolutely no interest in PvP at all and just likes to do missions/incursions/mining with me is not the appropriate solution. The least you can do is that you put an expiration date on the bounty. When it expires, the bounty is returned and the one who had it becomes immune to additional bounties to be placed on him, unless this person becomes a suspect or criminal at some point, upon which the immunity becomes void. If you fail to remove old bounties at some point, then yes, we'll end up with a what Veryez posted.

Quote:
I forsee a future where every EvE player has a bounty on their heads...


And then your brand new bounty system is as pointless as the current one.
Anton Zuber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#615 - 2012-10-12 21:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Anton Zuber
Sorry if I'm duplicating, but 31 pages of mostly nothing is more than I'm willing to read.

Anyhow, I like the direction you are going with these changes. There are some really good ideas in this. Limiting bounties by the value of the ship (or pod) that is lost is rather brilliant. I like. I do have a couple concerns however.

My first concern, is the kill rights for sale. This could be a HUGE griefing tool if it is done wrong and I didn't see much in the way of details on this one in the dev blog. If you can randomly buy kill rights on anybody for a mere million ISK that's gonna happen constantly. Nobody will be safe. This idea scares me a lot.

My other concern is the issue of bounties. We're suddenly going to be able to place a bounty on anyone. Not just the bad people. And here's kind of what I see is going to happen with that.

Bob: Hi
Griefer "Moneybags": Bob BOUNTIED! 100k
Frank: what?
Griefer "Moneybags": Frank BOUNTIED! 100k
Joe: hey wtf?
Griefer "Moneybags": Joe BOUNTIED! 100k
.
.
.

People with more money than sense are going to slap bounties on anything that moves. Now, since this doesn't give kill rights in itself maybe that's not such a problem for the recipients of this undirected rage. But for the bounty hunters, it will be. You'll suddenly be stuck with the task of sorting out which potential targets have a bounty worth chasing down, and which do not. And there will be lots and lots and lots of bounties to sort through right from day one. And if you're stuck clicking on names in space all the time to do that, it's going to be bad.

So we're going to need a way to sort targets on overview by the value of a bounty, preferably sorting them by several levels so we can see high bounties, good bounties, decent bounties, and just prune out the ones that just aren't worth noticing. This should all be user configurable because my definition of what is worth chasing down may differ from yours.
Gris X
xDECOYx
DECOY
#616 - 2012-10-12 21:37:42 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Not sure if anyone has thought of this yet, but CCP really needs to keep alts in mind. Two things come up IMMEDIATELY after reading the "future" patch notes:

1. Undock in a shuttle. An alt activates the kill right. Blows up shuttle. Kill right completed.

and

2. What's to prevent someone from killing an alt, and selling the kill rights on that alt while just sitting on a station in a shiny ship? Do it in a busy system, Like Amarr, Rens, or (god forbid) Jita and I'm pretty sure you can scam ISK like this all month long (until the killright runs out)

Just some thoughts for Team Superfriends


Yes, this has been mentioned a lot already Smile.

For this reason I also do not believe Kill Right is THE way to make bounty hunting a profession. They will be too easily shedded, if needed, albeit I think Kill Rights update is a great evolution of the game.

I believe there is something very close to KillRight that could work to really make bounty hunting a profession: a BountyRight that a pilot acquires on a given pilot for a non-insignificant contract fee. This BountyRight is similar to a killright, but it can't be sold and when activated both the target and the bounty hunter get Suspect flags. When the target is killed uder this suspect flag, the Bounty Hunter get a refund of the contract fee, and the planned bounty. A Bounty Hunter can only have one Kill Right at any one time, and canceling a BountyRight without killing the target does not refund the contract fee.

Anton Zuber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#617 - 2012-10-12 21:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anton Zuber
CCP Punkturis wrote:


I believe (I have faith!) that people will mostly be putting bounties on people that annoy them, not just random people in local.. you can be a pretty annoying forum poster but a nice person in game so you might want to place bounty on that guy

I think that if you're a nice person in general people are going to leave you alone



This is another fine example of CCP being ridiculously naive. Where do they keep you guys? Have you even seen the internet before? seriously? You are COMPLETELY WRONG!

To combat your extreme ignorance of the world around you I demand that you now go to a chat room in EVE. Do so anonymously as just an average user. Talk about things. What the subject is, is irrelevant, just talk. I GUARANTEE YOU that before an hour is up? someone will BLOCK YOU and flag you (RED) with -10 status. Odds are, it will happen more than once before the hour is up.

With the upcoming bounty system, this will continue to happen, only difference is bored angry trolls are going to be slapping 100k bounties on anybody who is unfortunate enough to cross their paths. It will not be long at all before a healthy percentage of the users in EVE are all going to have 100k bounties just because there are no shortage of people in EVE who, enjoy farming tears, have more money than sense, and simply have nothing better to do.

Quote:
I forsee a future where every EvE player has a bounty on their heads...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#618 - 2012-10-12 21:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:


I believe (I have faith!) that people will mostly be putting bounties on people that annoy them, not just random people in local.. you can be a pretty annoying forum poster but a nice person in game so you might want to place bounty on that guy

I think that if you're a nice person in general people are going to leave you alone



I think you underestimate the EVE playerbase a bit Punkturis Blink. There is a reason why aspects of this game are specifically labeled as griefing and bannable in other MMO's while they are allowed here. Jita alone has more scams on a given day than the entire population of Iceland.

Although I am not so strong in my arguments as Alexander here, his points do have merit: As bounties have no expiration period, all of it will remain on a character, even if that bounty is only minimal. Some form of mediation is needed here. One of the reasons I remained in the NPC starter corp is because I can help new players this way. More than often, their questions are not answered in the rookie help or general help chat. Our corp chat is often a question and answer chat, which is what you would expect from a NPC starter corp.

However, if players can see that I have a bounty on my head, they may doubt my motives or actions.

Punkturis, people have money to burn. Why do you think officer modules are worth billions. Heck the Goons made a trillion each month with their tech moons a few months ago. It will be too easy to just add millions of bounty on anyone that disagrees with you on the forums, or also mines in the same field that you happen to mine in, or someone that sells the same stuff as you in a contract, but at a lower price. The possibilities are endless. And that's not what a bounty system should cover.

I applaud your effort, I really do. But generalizing it across the board affecting everyone including my 69-year old dad who has absolutely no interest in PvP at all and just likes to do missions/incursions/mining with me is not the appropriate solution. The least you can do is that you put an expiration date on the bounty. When it expires, the bounty is returned and the one who had it becomes immune to additional bounties to be placed on him, unless this person becomes a suspect or criminal at some point, upon which the immunity becomes void. If you fail to remove old bounties at some point, then yes, we'll end up with a what Veryez posted.

Quote:
I forsee a future where every EvE player has a bounty on their heads...


And then your brand new bounty system is as pointless as the current one.


Can someone please explain why "bad" comes about when someone put's a bounty on your head? Or your Dad's head??

And this is EvE.... everyone already does doubt your motives or actions.... or they are a moron...
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#619 - 2012-10-12 22:10:09 UTC
The bounty system is effectively the return of ship insurance for gankers.

Which is a good thing.
Kristen Andelare
Night's Shadows
#620 - 2012-10-12 22:10:33 UTC
Wow, that was a lot to read.

I like most of the new system, but I really, really dislike a couple aspects of it.

Kill Rights: The new conditions under which you get them are fine. You only get them for doing what is viewed as a bad thing. I also think the activating of them to give the person a suspect flag is interesting, and not horrible. It will make people who like to live in highsec careful of who they give up a kill right to. I'm not convinced the selling of them is all that great. It does enable the Bounty Hunter profession, but is this what's needed to make it viable?

Bounties: Putting bounties on people without regard to Sec Status is new, and I think reaction will be mixed. While it is not the end-all-be-all indicator of whether a person is "good" or "evil" in Eve, it is a good starting point for a determination. I really, really dislike putting bounties on corps and structures. Bad, Bad, Bad idea. Bounties on a person is one thing, but in what world is it legal to offer a bounty for the destruction of a building? None. Complete lawlessness leads to anarchy, and anarchy everywhere in Eve will lead to a lot fewer subs. Good business model? I don't think it would be. We have a method already for taking revenge on a corporation or structure, you declare war. That's the whole purpose of that mechanism. Don't add another one that's just based on random griefing.

Here's the scenario: Oh I saw you had a POS in Odette. I just placed a 1billion bounty on it. Pay me half that and I'll remove it, otherwise, every merc corp between here and Jita is going to wardec you and shoot your POS. Have a nice day! Way to add a new griefing tactic. No grudge required. Just warp into a system, check the moons with dscan, warp to the POSes you find, add bounties, contact CEOs, isk flows. Good work. And if you don't think it will be used that way ... I don't even want to go there. Wardecs at least have a cost and work they have to do themselves. and yes, I understand that the attackers trying to collect those bounties will have to wardec, but now you can anonymously make a wardec target painter on any corp in Eve, including ones that pose no threat, and ones that have not done anything.

- Disappointed in some of this.