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Dev blog: Stay on Target!

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KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#581 - 2012-10-12 00:22:37 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Kage Toshimado wrote:
Prism,

Not to heap on, but you have to understand that we are tired of this. Many, many people don't like the Unified Inventory, and we were told it was a work in progress and then BAM!!! we all got this piece of garbage anyhow.

If we don't speak up, chances are (at least we are worried) we'll have this forced upon us as well.


I'm not telling you to keep your opinions to yourself. Merely saying thta there's a difference between feedback and repeating the same feedback over and over again despite said feedback having been acknowledged.

Why am I saying this? It's not because we've got fragile egos and will cry ourselves to sleep if you don't treat us kindly.

It's because it creates a very bad atmosphere. We cant acknowledge the same feedback over and over again, so eventually we stop answering the question. That makes somebody feel like he is being ignored when it's really the issue having already been covered. That makes people angry. They start posting angry. Newcomers come to the thread and see an angry poster talking about being ignored. A bandwagon is created. Constructive feedback, such as making the triangles spin wildly out of control if your tracking is too **** for the traversal velocity, gets lost. Everybody loses and goes home a bit angrier than they had to.

That being said, I'm no saint. That should be obvious by the fact that I troll my own coworkers. But I cant do that if I start creating problems by doing that. Which is why I'm now making a longwinded attempt to re-rail the discussion that I feel I may have de-railed somewhat.



Then how about a daily DEV summary of the issues and suggestions you have recognized? Tell people up front you are going to do that. Then all they have to do is blue tag jump through Dev posts and they will be caught up on what you've acknowledged. I had to scroll through 10 pages before I found that you acknowledged that performance degradation is a recognized risk.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#582 - 2012-10-12 00:32:16 UTC
Real-time velocity-vectors can we haz plees?

Ni.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#583 - 2012-10-12 00:34:52 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:

Well, I'm not going to complain as this is something you're adding that wasn't there before, not something you're changing around, however I agree with Karl, that seeing the kind of hit would be much more useful. Maybe you need to stop nubing missions and try pvping as this is where that information will be truly critical, not in PVE. But, like I said, better than nothing.

Unless.... you're planning to remove damage notifications and rely solely on this new mechanism, then you better get ready for a rage storm.

Also, I don't really understand, can't you already see all the HP notifications on all locked targets???

P.S. Great work, I like that you're going back to the round target icons, and I think starting clockwise with shields at 12 is just friggen awesome :)

I'm actually doing more PVP now than PVE... but I'm such a noob that I usually just die when people start shooting P

But we are not planning on removing the damage notification... we will (most likely) be improving them, I'm not really sure though how (I just don't know right now).

And thank you Big smile


If you remove the damage notifications (ingame), at least let them stay in logs externally. To elaborate; I more or less never use the ingame combat log, even tho yes I do have the 'log' added to my Neocom (there are times when you really want quick access to it). But I very frequently use the log, out of game. In cross-corporation/alliance conflicts, for example, when you need to know who shot when, this is a very nice tool for reference. Or, if you need to know more exaclty when an event transpired (when, more exactly on the minute/second, did we do X?).

The combat log is an excellent tool, especially for corporation directors, diplomats, etc. Ingame it is not very attractive and fills limited use, a more attractive UI could replace it. But as information tool, it will be gravely missed if it's completely removed. All you have to do is a tickbox like the 'log chat to file' for combat messages, and let those of us who want it get it in a .txt externally, should be a fairly simple solution?

Thank you.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#584 - 2012-10-12 01:00:02 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Much with whats been said previously in this thread i agree with, but one of the absolute best things you guys could do is indicate other effects on enemies better.

Ie warp scrambling webbing etc... yes we have visual cues for those but some we dont at all like tracking disruption, sensor dampening etc... plz plz plz as you've added the effect bar above the ships control area of the HUD theres no need to also include these on the overview box still... stop throwing the same info to multiple areas unless you're doing something clever with them.

id much rather see the icons in the overview area be purple versions of itself to show fleet effects on those contacts in the overview (fleet effects being the effects on the overview contact performed by a member of my fleet)

That would benefit us imensly , it would not be immersion breaking, we dont need more info streamed to us as its info our clients already get to render effects to and from objects in space.

to sum up:
it helps people co-ordinate better without out of game advantages.
it uses art assets that are practically there already.
It turns a now obsolete duplicated system into something useful.
it doesn't increase server load.


Using existing duplicate features to illustrate something else, useful. Good idea. Assuming the old system (overview) is outdated, and the new better, is not.

TL;DR some of us use the overview extensively. It's the main source of information during combat. There's plenty of players who, like me, about never ever look at your own ship. Let alone, above the speedometer. Overview tells me most stuff I want to know, with speed, type, distance, radial, (transversal, depending on setup), etc. The tactical overlay shows me positions. And using 'look at' feature on enemy ship can give me vital information as well, in certain environments. What is of LEAST concern, is to look at my own ship or the surroundings. I'm not a space-tourist, and I have much more pressing matters than to glance at bottom-middle for some random information I can as well get from a source I use non-stop, i.e., the overview.

Having e-war information on the overview is really really helpful. Having the new icons added recently, is kinda useless. Even in a DED plex with 10+ frigates webbing me, it was just easier to lock down the overview and target webbers from there, so I don't even see PvE benefits with those icons. For some missionrunners with little to no interest in other peoples movement, and where you don't need instant reaction to others movement, I guess, these new icons can come in handy.

If anything, your suggestion should rather add more icons, preferably on the targetbox itself (and quite possibly coloured or otherwise easily distinguishable). Hopefully we'll never ever see CCP remove the ewar effects from the overview, that'd just make the game less intuitive and harder to read. I.e. it's easier to look at one-two spots (overview, tac overlay), rather than four (overview, tac overlay, target box, above your speedometer).

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#585 - 2012-10-12 02:01:53 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Maria Kitiare wrote:
Most of your players read from left to right, so if You insist on giving us those circles, please make it so shield is on the left side, armor on the right and hull on the bottom. This will also make it more in line with the current mod timer animation that starts in the bottom and moves around..
The day starts at midnight, at 12 o'clock, which is at the top of the clock, and the day progresses clock-wise. The targeting animation starts at "12 o'clock" and progresses clock-wise, same for the damage (shields starts at "12 o'clock"). Your mod timer animation observation is correct, it progresses clock-wise but starts at "6 o'clock"; perhaps that should be changed to start at "12 o'clock" as well. But that's for CCP karkur and Team Pony Express to think about if and how they want to tackle, not me. Big smile


Funny that you bring that up, some RL friends and me were discussing the other day how kids today don't see things 'at the hours' or clock-/counterclockwise. They're too used to digital watches, and many of them never owned an analogue one.

That being said, while I'm slightly older than those kids, I still find it alot more more intuitive to read the hp bars from left, to right, to bottom. I'd prefer the HP bars to rather 'fill up' than deplete like they do today tho. In the current system I prefer them to run out, in a future circular system I'd want them to 'progress' through the circles. And ultimately I would much prefer to have a small distance between where the shield start and hull ends, like Tippia suggested.

It could be a cultural thing, like those tribes in Africa or whatever that really can't handle squares, everything in their life is circular. P

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#586 - 2012-10-12 02:08:09 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Maria Kitiare wrote:
Most of your players read from left to right, so if You insist on giving us those circles, please make it so shield is on the left side, armor on the right and hull on the bottom. This will also make it more in line with the current mod timer animation that starts in the bottom and moves around..
The day starts at midnight, at 12 o'clock, which is at the top of the clock, and the day progresses clock-wise. The targeting animation starts at "12 o'clock" and progresses clock-wise, same for the damage (shields starts at "12 o'clock"). Your mod timer animation observation is correct, it progresses clock-wise but starts at "6 o'clock"; perhaps that should be changed to start at "12 o'clock" as well. But that's for CCP karkur and Team Pony Express to think about if and how they want to tackle, not me. Big smile


I gotta agree with Maria though, regardless of when the day starts :D

shields on left, armor on right, hull at bottom,


..and this is exactly why CCP must (if the circular target boxes goes through) let the players chose which bar that has what position. Plus, let us chose if the health will deplete/progress through the bars. It's really obvious that between everyone that post here, it's big variation of what we feel is 'intuitive'. That just makes me feel Tippia is more right when stating this system is not intuitive, as in, yes we can learn and get used to it. But it will feel wrong, and in the heat of the moment etc.. this new system has the risk of hampering player performance, plus/or add annoyance/frustration.

Is it worth enforcing a certain mechanic that will be an annoyance for many? Is there any issue with letting it be adaptible/configured to players preference? I mean; the core functionality plus the exact same circle will be there for everyone, so it's still only one system to maintain, not multiple. It just lets players position health, and the movement of their bars, as they like.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#587 - 2012-10-12 02:21:11 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Cerulean Ice wrote:
CCP Prism X gets it.


Dude I'm trolling.


Forum rules: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/W/index.php

Quote:

Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.


..this post may or may not have been posted lightheartedly, and may or may not be taken in a super-serious fashion.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#588 - 2012-10-12 02:27:05 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Main thing I can think of, unless you're a goldfish, 'which one is their shields' is a question that will be answered the very first time you use it. And it only needs answered once.

Once you know, it's entirely intuitive.


No it's not.

Intuitive - as the word suggest, it is something that is supposedly understood by intuition (or known or perceived). That is not the same as learning something easily and then remembering it. Intuitive means you will spontaneously assume that X is the way to go. The first time you do it, if you're woken up and immediately requested an action, etc.

Judging by all the comments here, the new system is far from that, in fact, it seems mandatory to "have to learn" it, so it's anything but intuitive. I'm not saying this is good or bad tho, but let's pull all those bullshit argument out at least. It's a lie to call it intuitive or logical, posts here already prove it is not. It's might "make sense" or be "easy to learn", but that's a completely different thing.. and is as such not a good reply/counter-argument to those claiming this system isn't intuitive.

I'd recommend something along the line of, first agreeing it is not, "yes, it's not untuitive .. but", and then adding the benefits with the system that comes for this tradeoff. It would make alot more sense.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#589 - 2012-10-12 03:02:10 UTC
I just wanted to mention I'm rather a fan of the idea of having some info actually show up on the in space icon, and a thin line connect it to the "targetted" icon at the top (or wherever) of your screen and it shows the rest.

I suppose you could also consider running that line over the the overview, but that might get visually confusing.

The truth is, it would make you view of a battle look a heck of a lot more like the sci fi looking readouts we see in the trailers (the current ideas help a lot in this regard already).

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#590 - 2012-10-12 03:16:21 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
*snip*

I'm not telling you to keep your opinions to yourself. Merely saying thta there's a difference between feedback and repeating the same feedback over and over again despite said feedback having been acknowledged.

Why am I saying this? It's not because we've got fragile egos and will cry ourselves to sleep if you don't treat us kindly.

It's because it creates a very bad atmosphere. We cant acknowledge the same feedback over and over again, so eventually we stop answering the question. That makes somebody feel like he is being ignored when it's really the issue having already been covered. That makes people angry. They start posting angry. Newcomers come to the thread and see an angry poster talking about being ignored. A bandwagon is created. Constructive feedback, such as making the triangles spin wildly out of control if your tracking is too **** for the traversal velocity, gets lost. Everybody loses and goes home a bit angrier than they had to.

That being said, I'm no saint. That should be obvious by the fact that I troll my own coworkers. But I cant do that if I start creating problems by doing that. Which is why I'm now making a longwinded attempt to re-rail the discussion that I feel I may have de-railed somewhat.



Then how about a daily DEV summary of the issues and suggestions you have recognized? Tell people up front you are going to do that. Then all they have to do is blue tag jump through Dev posts and they will be caught up on what you've acknowledged. I had to scroll through 10 pages before I found that you acknowledged that performance degradation is a recognized risk.
This. It is the medium (discussion forum) which creates the feedback challenges.

Great suggestion by KIller Wabbit re: the consolidation of issues, feedback and findings. This will help with the project meetings and moving things forward when addressing customer input results.

If it sounds like we are telling you (CCP Prism X) how to execute in your job, then you are correct. Interestingly, this is the first time that I have seen a useful discussion on how CCP processes customer feedback via these forums. This subject material is applicable across *all* CCP project teams who even glance at the EVE-O forums as a resource for obtaining customer input.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Luka Datitties
Star-Gate Command
#591 - 2012-10-12 03:41:35 UTC
If anything gets changed I'd like it to be the static box at the top middle of the screen that blocks other windows.
Why not eliminate that for combat purposes and show yellow numbers representing damage dealt to what you shot over top of what you hit? Why not show red numbers coming out of your capacitor circle when you get hit?
It does NOT have to be like WoW or whatever other game you can compare that to, but visually it would be much better than a box in the middle of the screen. According to that screenshot Chribba posted, that is the one thing that remains unchanged in this game for 10 years.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#592 - 2012-10-12 03:55:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Misanth wrote:
There are currently rewards in actually fitting modules that tells you about enemy ships (check cap, check fitting, even disguise your targeting so enemy don't know you scan them, etc). Do you really think this game should be Hello Kitty in space where everyone is presented with information that completely offset the rewards for those who put in an effort? Doesn't that go against the very nature of both a sandbox, but also EVE through history?
…that said, there might be some merit to combining the two standpoints: what if fitting (and running) certain modules simply revealed more UI elements, Deus Ex-style*?

In this case, the ship scanner would be turned into a constantly active module instead of a one-shot deal, and give you that fourth health bar on the target display, showing cap, and maybe access to a drop down or fold-out menu with other fittings. Alternatively, it would give you a, say, 20-second window where that display is updated before it fades away and you need to ping the ship again. Since part of the goal of this whole exercise is to make information more readily available without spawning new windows all over the place, incorporating that information as add-ons to existing displays would be one way to go.

Thus, you get the benefit of fitting and running the module and the benefit of not having to wade through new windows to read the information you've bought with that fitting space and extra cap use.


* I'm sure other games than DX does it, but I couldn't think of any off the top of my head.


Why not, it'd give CCP something mouth-watering to play around with for FANCY LOOKZ too. P It's a separate issue tho to what I replied to there, but it's definately something that sounds appealing to me at first glance.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#593 - 2012-10-12 03:58:54 UTC
Palovana wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Palovana wrote:
CCP Masheen wrote:
mkint wrote:
What will the new indicator icons look like on the overview?


Good question!

Short answer: in Retribution we're not changing the overview.

Does this also mean that there will be no way in the Overview to see who has specific (suspect, criminal, etc) flags?

There is actually another team working on that... and I think they are planning on showing that.

Excellent news.

Wouldn't want to make a criminal of myself by "accidentally" shooting an innocent pilot. Twisted


Easy fix. There is no innocent pilots. P

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#594 - 2012-10-12 04:03:56 UTC
Galmas wrote:
Salpun wrote:
When will the damage notification be movableTwisted
And the log be easier to read?


For me it would certainly be much more beneficial if you folks at ccp would work on the format of the logs (damage done/received at the beginning of the line, then pilot name, then the weapon, then the rest of the more or less useless spam...) instead of changing a part of the UI which is actually working quite well for me. If you then give me a switch to toggle these stupid damage notifications in the middle of the screen i would be very much pleased with UI tweaking for one expansion.


If..
a) damage logs would separate (different windows, and separate on/off tickboxes) damage done, damage taken, and information, and
b) damage logs could be positioned wherever you wanted

Then I think CCP would please alot of players, and achive alot more success than many other suggested changes in here. Simple as that.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#595 - 2012-10-12 04:09:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Angeliq wrote:
Why are we still debating the direction from-to which the damage should flow in those circles and what colors those should be, since the majority of people already concluded that while this is indeed nice looking bendy shiny thingy, it is less functional and counter-intuitive.
Really? Could we get a vote count on that one? Roll

The reason we're still debating it is because answering those makes it just as functional and more intuitive.


How many of my accounts can I use for that? P

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
space chikun
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#596 - 2012-10-12 04:14:34 UTC  |  Edited by: space chikun
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I have a suggestion.

What about the target stays in a circle and:

- On the upper side (say 220°, that is a bit more than half of the circle) there's the lock countdown, basically a thin red-dish arc (with number at the top of the targetting circle in a little square) that shortens as the lock progresses. The thin red arc is on the perimeter of the target circle.

- On the bottom, 3 other concentric semi-arcs, say 60-80°.

One is shields, the second is armor the third is hull.

It'd keep the "modern circular" theme while also being VERY easy to learn, to glance at and easy to adapt from "old pilots".


Here's is an awful but illustrative picture detailing my idea.

Of course the lower arcs could be better joined with the overall circular shape, be inside it or whatsnot.


Hire this guy.

EDIT: Just not for art.
Lieam Thellere
The CodeX Alliance Executive Holdings Corporation
The CodeX Alliance
#597 - 2012-10-12 04:15:50 UTC
Might have already been mentioned, but we're 30 pages in, so I read a few then skipped to the end.

I like the basic concept of the clock-style bars, but agree that my first instinct was the left-side bar would be the shield. I think this could be fixed just by rotating the "clock" a bit.

Put the shield bar on top (so it reaches from 10 to 2), the armor in the right-lower third (from 2 to 6) and the hull in the lower-left third (6 to 10). That leaves the "break" points between each in a kind of Y shape, instead of the inverted-Y as it's currently shown. This way, you instinctively look at the TOP for your shields, and damage progresses clockwise around the icon.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#598 - 2012-10-12 04:29:53 UTC
space chikun wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I have a suggestion.

What about the target stays in a circle and:

- On the upper side (say 220°, that is a bit more than half of the circle) there's the lock countdown, basically a thin red-dish arc (with number at the top of the targetting circle in a little square) that shortens as the lock progresses. The thin red arc is on the perimeter of the target circle.

- On the bottom, 3 other concentric semi-arcs, say 60-80°.

One is shields, the second is armor the third is hull.

It'd keep the "modern circular" theme while also being VERY easy to learn, to glance at and easy to adapt from "old pilots".


Here's is an awful but illustrative picture detailing my idea.

Of course the lower arcs could be better joined with the overall circular shape, be inside it or whatsnot.


Hire this guy.

EDIT: Just not for art.


Hire him for f-art?

I like his idea, but if I get to dream as well about possible look of this, I'd want his vision.. upside down. 220 degrees of shield/armor/hull on top of the circle, and the bottom part would be 'open' for active module icons, and below that.. a customizeable transparent zone for text. I'd make mine something like:
[ Name ] (PvE) / [ Type ] (PvP)
[ Distance ]
[Radial Velocity ]

Say we can do some 5-6 various settings, i.e. basicly like the overview, but you put all that information in text below the target. Below should be more flexible for icons/texts, that's why I'd prefer to see the health indicators on top instead. The left/right could have timers, say, right for ex could be timer of your activation on enemy, while left side show timer of enemies activation on you. Just brainstorming, but it'd literally be CCP's circular idea, with Vaerah's image, but upside down (and the added left/right timer indicators).

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#599 - 2012-10-12 06:13:59 UTC
space chikun wrote:

If only our shield / armor / hull / cap indicators were transparent and more hud-like, folks would understand what they're going for. That needs to be updated, too. I'd like to see it de-coupled from the butans somehow.


Why in the blooming earth do INDICATORS of all things need to be transparent? What possible purpose would not seeing indicators clearly have?

I will again second the suggestion given earlier in the thread. Make the indicators three concentric circles. Shield on the outside, armor in the middle, structure on the inside. That way it is at least intuitive which is which. When suffering damage, the shield indicator goes full circle before moving to armor and so on.

If indeed having the indicator as a circle is crucial to CCP? Maybe because circular indicator looks nice when it blinks.. I wish not all practicality was sacrificed on altar of "looking pretty".

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#600 - 2012-10-12 06:35:26 UTC
This all sounds really great but so did the new inventory system at first and that has turned out to be a big hassle. I would say how you do it might be more important that what you do. The devil is in the details.

That being said if this stuff is even half as good as you make it sound and you don't introduce any buggy behavior in the process then it should be great.

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