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Dev blog: Stay on Target!

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Author
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#521 - 2012-10-11 15:54:41 UTC
Palovana wrote:
CCP Masheen wrote:
mkint wrote:
What will the new indicator icons look like on the overview?


Good question!

Short answer: in Retribution we're not changing the overview.

Does this also mean that there will be no way in the Overview to see who has specific (suspect, criminal, etc) flags?

There is actually another team working on that... and I think they are planning on showing that.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
#522 - 2012-10-11 16:07:23 UTC
One request: Don't make the red and yellow color difference too subtle. I'm colorblind and already have a hard enough time telling the difference between the two.

Please make the yellow very yellow and the red very red.
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
#523 - 2012-10-11 16:10:24 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Palovana wrote:
CCP Masheen wrote:
mkint wrote:
What will the new indicator icons look like on the overview?


Good question!

Short answer: in Retribution we're not changing the overview.

Does this also mean that there will be no way in the Overview to see who has specific (suspect, criminal, etc) flags?

There is actually another team working on that... and I think they are planning on showing that.

Excellent news.

Wouldn't want to make a criminal of myself by "accidentally" shooting an innocent pilot. Twisted
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#524 - 2012-10-11 16:13:36 UTC
This looks good and useful. Can't wait to try these things out.

While you are working on the icons, could you squeeze some more information out of the brackets. As we know the player ships have broken boxes to identify themselves from other objects. However these do not give much information if it's a frigate or a battlecruiser unless you can distinguish a few pixel difference out of memory.

This could be improved by adding a geometric symbol in the box. Let's say a frigate would have a triangle in the box and a cruiser a square. Now we can see what is going on around us much easier, especially in the overview. Taking it further the icons could be separated by colour or adding lines or symbols to mark different tech levels or roles. For example a merlin has a gray triangle and a hawk golden triangle with a black stripe while a buzzard has a golden triangle with a blue stripe. This would make it easier for people to identify ship classes at a glance and speed up the identification so you could assess the situation better.

This post was rated "C" for capsuleer.

Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#525 - 2012-10-11 16:20:58 UTC
I think this is a great development and this kind of UI detail deserves the attention it is getting. This is an exciting development and some of the extra functionality described sounds great!

That out of the way, I do think the circular damage indicators are a bit of a retrograde step as far as "instant information" goes - the function of shield, armor and structure is essentially of three consequent layers, and the old square UI at least made this clear (shield on top, then armor, then structure). With the new display its really unclear, at a glance, what is going on. It isn't obvious that, for example, someone is at 0 shield rather than having no armor but full shield from an earlier engagement.

Of course, as people get used to the new setup they will learn, but applying that learning is a process that takes a half seconds concentration - the "at a glance" usage is diminished.

This can be fixed without abandoning the circular aesthetic. I think you should experiement with part-circles rather than a full circule for the Shield-armor-structure ring. If they covered say, 3/4 or 1/2 the circle instead of the full circumference, it would be obvious which is the "first" and "last" of the three segments, if you see what I'm getting at.

Another option floated on FHC would be to make all three into full circle seperate concentric rings (shield on the outside). This would work too but would take up more room.

Either way, at present I dont think the display properly conveys the info.

Would love to hear CCPs thoughts on these points.

Love

Lall
MooCowofKow
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#526 - 2012-10-11 16:26:03 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
I don't like the circle indicators; the current ordered list of Shield Armor Hull is very good at conveying at a glance information; the rounded bars condenses it, but at the cost of at a glance clarity; not a worthy tradeoff, IMO.

I do like the idea of conveying targeting range and providing a visual indicator on the HUD of who is hitting you. Overall, I think the ol' box is the best way to go, rather than circles.



I completely agree with this. The circle indicators seem like downgrading clarity to make it look shiny.
TheLostPenguin
Surreal Departure
#527 - 2012-10-11 16:30:51 UTC
Quote:
And yes, should you desire it we will most likely be offering you a way to turn off the new Damage and Targeting Range indicators.


Frankly, just THIS ↑↑↑↑

Hopefully this will turn out to be something nice and useful and I'll want it on, but there should always, ALWAYS be the option to turn off :new stuff: for those that don't like it or find it has adverse performance effects for them. Including this option will so greatly reduce the flamefest received whenever :new stuff: is added to the ui it's hard to understnd why you don't...
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#528 - 2012-10-11 16:32:31 UTC
I was wondering if the selected target would be re-sizable and give far more room to display more information on the ship icon. I don't mean information that is not already present, but perhaps more customization. Maybe instead of health bars, I am more concerned with my angular velocity and the targets speed and distance. Maybe instead of being part of the row/column of targets, when I select the target; it is in its own movable and adjustable UI.

So no new information, just more customization to taste on how that selected target is displayed to me with the information I am most concerned about.

More customization on my own HUD would be nice too. Give us the ability to decide what color we want what and how much space on the screen it takes up.
Punky260
Kriegsmarinewerft
Goonswarm Federation
#529 - 2012-10-11 16:37:18 UTC
I really like the changes and would like to start playing with them right now ^^

But I don't like the new circle icons of your ships targetet that much. I think they are nice right now - making them round would make them not fit that well into the rest of the UI.
Just to be sure, Im talking about the icons of the ships you have targeted in the upper right of the screen, the ones with the pictures.
The other icons are good.

Best way to deal with the problem, that some players like one shape more than the other would be: Simply add the option to choose between the two (or maybe more later) shapes. That would be the best .)


Thanks for your good work :)
Viddles
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#530 - 2012-10-11 16:42:17 UTC
Overall I like that you're trying to improve the UI.

I agree with the posters that say there are disadvantages to the circular UI - namely, we have to learn which one represents which damage attribute. I hope that once we've learned it will be second nature... with the current scheme, knowing that the "outer defence" is on the top and the "inner, most critical defence" is on the bottom helps keep that UI quick to read.

Having said that, I like having the damage UI on the ship itself, and not just in the Target List. That'll be very quick to see status of your target.

I see this as duplicating some of what is in the Target List - or, less and less use for the Target List, in fact; if it could be engineered so that you could turn it off (General Settings tab?), that would be a great way to reduce clutter and increase usable screen space.

The things I'd like to see changed that you haven't mentioned would be the horizontal and vertical lines that splay all over the screen when you have like 7 targets locked. Very messy and cluttered. When you have 7 targets to manage, that's when you need an especially clear screen, and those lines do nothing for me except make it more confusing. The lines are a neat idea... but how about they get some lovin' too? I suggest that instead of continuing them to the edges of the screen, no matter how long the lines will be, change them so that they fade out over a distance that is about 1/3rd if your window size - or perhaps just a fixed length like 400 pixels. That way you can still be guided toward them, but they won't take up the whole screen bombarding you with parallel lines leading off to nowhere, doing you no good.

-V
Galmas
13.
Enigma Project
#531 - 2012-10-11 16:45:48 UTC
Salpun wrote:
When will the damage notification be movableTwisted
And the log be easier to read?


Before commenting on the quote i would like to voice my concerns about the changes of the targeting UI. At a first glance: do not like at all! why?

1. it is much easier to read (and folks are actually used to it too) when you have the layers of defense (shield, armor, hull) stacked since they are actually (mostly) stacked in the mechanics of the game and thus much easier to sense. (well we will eventually get used to it like we got used to the horrible inventory system performance at POS)

2. displaying the shield/armor/hull stats on the locked targets in space is a nice thing to have in general but should display in the same way as in the "locked targets" area. hence i dont like the round thingy there too.

3. The ships stats on the locked targets in space should really be an option since in close range combat (all ships within like 10km of each other with 20 ships in combat) it will totally clutter the screen and you will actually loose information.

Now to the quote above:

For me it would certainly be much more beneficial if you folks at ccp would work on the format of the logs (damage done/received at the beginning of the line, then pilot name, then the weapon, then the rest of the more or less useless spam...) instead of changing a part of the UI which is actually working quite well for me. If you then give me a switch to toggle these stupid damage notifications in the middle of the screen i would be very much pleased with UI tweaking for one expansion.

I don't want to demotivate you or be negative towards your work but i really do not understand why the log and the damage notifications are still that horrible (since so many years...) but you guys touch stuff that is in fact working just fine.

If i wanted to exaggerate i could say that making EVE a arcade shooter is not going to make you many friends and certainly not going to enhance your business case, thought ccp learned that with "useless quartersTM".

Thanks, Regards
Gal
Rengerel en Distel
#532 - 2012-10-11 16:46:47 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I was wondering if the selected target would be re-sizable and give far more room to display more information on the ship icon. I don't mean information that is not already present, but perhaps more customization. Maybe instead of health bars, I am more concerned with my angular velocity and the targets speed and distance. Maybe instead of being part of the row/column of targets, when I select the target; it is in its own movable and adjustable UI.

So no new information, just more customization to taste on how that selected target is displayed to me with the information I am most concerned about.

More customization on my own HUD would be nice too. Give us the ability to decide what color we want what and how much space on the screen it takes up.


I think to go with this, the problem is trying to do too many things. If you don't have a ship targeted, you should get basic info only: are they locking me, have they locked me, are they shooting at me.

When you have them targeted you're expecting your ship to have more information. You should be able to see what effects they're under, their movement, distance and the like.

When you have them as your focus target, you should get the most information. The window for that target should be larger, perhaps as big as your own indicator, and your other targeted icons get smaller, yet readable.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Galmas
13.
Enigma Project
#533 - 2012-10-11 16:49:07 UTC
Viddles wrote:
Overall I like that you're trying to improve the UI.

The things I'd like to see changed that you haven't mentioned would be the horizontal and vertical lines that splay all over the screen when you have like 7 targets locked. Very messy and cluttered. When you have 7 targets to manage, that's when you need an especially clear screen, and those lines do nothing for me except make it more confusing. The lines are a neat idea... but how about they get some lovin' too? I suggest that instead of continuing them to the edges of the screen, no matter how long the lines will be, change them so that they fade out over a distance that is about 1/3rd if your window size - or perhaps just a fixed length like 400 pixels. That way you can still be guided toward them, but they won't take up the whole screen bombarding you with parallel lines leading off to nowhere, doing you no good.

-V


This one is a very good point. This is actually one big thing (beside the usless damage notification in the middle of the screen) that is not very good with the current Targeting UI.
Rengerel en Distel
#534 - 2012-10-11 16:56:18 UTC
Galmas wrote:
Viddles wrote:
Overall I like that you're trying to improve the UI.

The things I'd like to see changed that you haven't mentioned would be the horizontal and vertical lines that splay all over the screen when you have like 7 targets locked. Very messy and cluttered. When you have 7 targets to manage, that's when you need an especially clear screen, and those lines do nothing for me except make it more confusing. The lines are a neat idea... but how about they get some lovin' too? I suggest that instead of continuing them to the edges of the screen, no matter how long the lines will be, change them so that they fade out over a distance that is about 1/3rd if your window size - or perhaps just a fixed length like 400 pixels. That way you can still be guided toward them, but they won't take up the whole screen bombarding you with parallel lines leading off to nowhere, doing you no good.

-V


This one is a very good point. This is actually one big thing (beside the usless damage notification in the middle of the screen) that is not very good with the current Targeting UI.

You can turn those off in general settings, which i think i mentioned 5 or 6 pages ago.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Galmas
13.
Enigma Project
#535 - 2012-10-11 17:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Galmas
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Galmas wrote:
Viddles wrote:
Overall I like that you're trying to improve the UI.

The things I'd like to see changed that you haven't mentioned would be the horizontal and vertical lines that splay all over the screen when you have like 7 targets locked. Very messy and cluttered. When you have 7 targets to manage, that's when you need an especially clear screen, and those lines do nothing for me except make it more confusing. The lines are a neat idea... but how about they get some lovin' too? I suggest that instead of continuing them to the edges of the screen, no matter how long the lines will be, change them so that they fade out over a distance that is about 1/3rd if your window size - or perhaps just a fixed length like 400 pixels. That way you can still be guided toward them, but they won't take up the whole screen bombarding you with parallel lines leading off to nowhere, doing you no good.

-V


This one is a very good point. This is actually one big thing (beside the usless damage notification in the middle of the screen) that is not very good with the current Targeting UI.

You can turn those off in general settings, which i think i mentioned 5 or 6 pages ago.



afaik it will turn off the damage notification in the log too, doesnt it?
Ulair Memmet
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#536 - 2012-10-11 17:03:39 UTC
OK, first: Those target symbols look FAMILIAR ^^ "UQ Graveyard" EVE-Video from ~2003

I like the new options (target in range, impact, etc.) but this worries me:

- The new Target-icons: There is no indication of what the shield is, what the armor and what the hull. Everyone will learn it eventually, but it should be indicated somehow. Or maybe you could rearrange them and leave a small gap at the bottom and then have Shield -> Armor -> Hull from left to right (or the other way round) Like this: target-mock.png

- Again the new Target-icons: It's much harder to judge whether a target is under 50% or 25% of shield/armor/hull (Kinda relevant for POS-bashing)

- The targeting animation: Please leave the numerical timer there with at least one decimal. I often forget to activate sensor boosters and the timer always showed me this. The bar is NOT enough.

- The "aggressing" icon: I'm colorblind and I already have trouble seeing those bloody red quadratic markers. But the one in this screenshot/mockup is INVISIBLE to me.

Other than that:
Good Job :) Keep it up

- Ulair
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#537 - 2012-10-11 17:05:23 UTC
Misanth wrote:
This game has traditionally always rewarded those who put in an effort (or are lucky). Yet, 'poor' or slack players have always been able to fight those people, by offsetting it with tactics, numbers, etc. It's a very good balance, it's fair, etc. That balance is already struggling immensely right now, with all the blobs completely offsetting skill and tactics. My point: the least thing we need is even more reward for the lazy players, on the contratrary, we could really use more boosts to those who put in an effort. Perhaps we should just not let players see enemy shield/armor/hull totals AT ALL unless they fit modules or train spedific skills. Twisted (that's a joke, obviously, but it would still be better than dumbing down the game and rewarding lazy people)


You have a point.

We could go 100% the other way and remove all information about target defenses.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

AMirrorDarkly
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#538 - 2012-10-11 17:09:02 UTC
I really like the direction you guys are going, particularly the circular lock icons....

I particularly like the vision for the UI seen at fanfest, the square icon's and UI that we have in general now is very much a 90's style interface and this is the first steps in bringing it into the 21st century. Now we can just do away with some of these other boxes :D

Change for the sake of change and all that is rubbish, how many people go out and get a new clothes just because it's new and not because it adds anything, does anything different, except for it looking cooler or just different. Oh yeah, theres a whole industry built around it! my bad.

As long as it is intuative, sleek and practical then it will be great, a few tweaks are of course still needed, I think different colour bars is the way to move forward in that instance, blue/green/red that move to black as depleted is a pretty straight forward scheme, but as long as it serves it's purpose I am all for it.

I for one took one look at the screen shot and new exactly what everything was for, I did require both side by side to gather which one was shield/armour/structure, but it took less than 5 seconds to see changes on the Avatar and it was easy to replicate on the others to see their status. I like the fact I don't have to keep looking at the top of the screen (or wherever you've anchored the target list) to see the status of the fight, no need to move your eyes off the targets, and given how adaptive and supposedly intelligent eve players are, I really don't think this should be a problem.





Chicken Pizza
One-man Armada
#539 - 2012-10-11 17:31:55 UTC
This isn't practical in the least. You can make anything look nice, but the utility will always remain the same. These circles are downright confusing, and I see absolutely no advantage to changing the display in this fashion.

This is a waste of resources that would be better spent on other visual aspects of EvE. 27 pages and still no reasonable justification for this garbage. No offense to the designers or anything. I mean, it looks nice but it's utterly impractical in comparison to what we have right now.

Come on, CCP. Don't **** my target list up like this.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#540 - 2012-10-11 17:39:40 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:

- Yes, the graphics are a bit wider now, but the old one had the module icons on the side so that should also count as the width of the targets. .

Are you saying you're removing the activated module icons from the side of the locked targets section?

How am I going to know which modules I have applied to which target? This is actually a very important part of the current.

And doing the whole "hover over my modules" thing does NOT cut it for me. .
No, we are not Smile
this is what I wrote... I've highlighted the part you might be interested in P

Quote:
- Yes, the graphics are a bit wider now, but the old one had the module icons on the side so that should also count as the width of the targets.
- the height of the old ones is greater, but then I have to add a little bit to the bottom of the new ones because that's where the active modules appear.


Ya, sorry. I read thoroughly typically, but I was going back through the posts and I glanced over that and I missed the second part. Oops

Where I am.