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Dev blog: Stay on Target!

First post First post
Author
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#501 - 2012-10-11 14:44:53 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:


Why am I saying this? It's not because we've got fragile egos and will cry ourselves to sleep if you don't treat us kindly.



Liar. I've seen CCP's tissue bill.

Wait...

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#502 - 2012-10-11 14:46:26 UTC
Angeliq wrote:
What about color blind ppl?

This is an issue I've been harping on for a long time. While it would be nice to be able to change the standard "eve colors" to let color-blind players remap things to fit their tastes, in the shorter term, the solution that improves things for everyone, not just color-blind players, is to provide information through multiple channels.

So:

* Not just a color, but a color and a shape. Red stopsign. Yellow triangle. Green circle.

* Not just a bar-graph (straight, curved, or whatever), but a bar with an embedded number.

* Not just a pulse, but different rates and rhythms of pulses (long-short-short, long-long-short, long-long-long, short-short-short).

CCP Explorer wrote:
Yep, that's indeed the opposite argument that has been in internal discussion this morning.

The convention is that gauges where the axis of the needle is entirely above or below the dial readouts have min to the left, and max to the right, and where the axis of the needle is entirely to the left or right of the dial readouts have min at the bottom and max at the top. Also, a readout where the neutral setting is in the middle will typically be placed in the bottom quadrant, so that the neutral position is straight down.

See some google images: https://www.google.com/search?q=automotive+gauges&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=i9t2UKrMA4ma9gSy-YHoCg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1161&bih=1084

and also: http://www.autoinstruments.com/auto1.jpg

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
The Mockers AO
#503 - 2012-10-11 14:47:19 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
John Nucleus wrote:
Thought I would throw this out there, might generate some ideas for the new damage indicator. The idea was to have a simple indicator that shows hit quality, damage and damage type.

http://i.imgur.com/RZq0p.png

Interesting idea Smile


I like this. It might be hard to see in some cases, but I like it.

Where I am.

Iam Widdershins
Project Nogero
#504 - 2012-10-11 14:49:12 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
If you have many smaller hits, your bracket should be really busy, and therefore drawing attention to you.

This is actually something I've been thinking about, and I don't know if people would rather press 8 buttons just to try to fly under the radar.

As long as the smaller hits are at least equally visible I'm fine with it.


Durzel wrote:
I will also add that the person doing the most damage to you might not be the biggest threat. If you're fighting 6 guys one of which is in a Sleipnir and another in a Blackbird, which should you getting off the field first?

So you're complaining that, because it doesn't necessarily show what is necessarily always the most important piece of information, you don't want to know? Give me a break.


Abdiel Kavash wrote:
However, the round style would allow for a very neat effect: scale the length (angle) of the shield / armor / hull indicators in proportion to the target's hitpoints. So a shield-tanked ship might have its shield bar take up 2/3 of the circle, armor bar 2/9, and hull bar 1/9. This would give a much better indication of "how much longer do I need to shoot until this guy dies".

I have to say this is a terrible idea. What fun is it if all anyone needs to do to find out if you're shield or armor buffered is target your ship?

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Ulam Stanislaw
#505 - 2012-10-11 14:53:18 UTC
+1
John Nucleus
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#506 - 2012-10-11 14:54:01 UTC
Angeliq wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
John Nucleus wrote:
Thought I would throw this out there, might generate some ideas for the new damage indicator. The idea was to have a simple indicator that shows hit quality, damage and damage type.

http://i.imgur.com/RZq0p.png

Interesting idea Smile


... but not useful information since you can't do anything to compensate for the incoming damage type while in combat. If you want to see what kind of damage you receive, just check the logs, dock and refit. Maybe you can tune the logs so it will show the damage type, but to have an actual bracket indicator that tells you what kind of damage you receive while in combat is totally useless.


Remeber that damage type is also an ammo's signature. With experience if you know which ammo is being used against you you can change your tactics accordingly.

Scorch: high optimal, low tracking -> get close and increase transversal.
Imperial navy frequency: high tracking, low optimal -> increase range.
Conflagrate: Low optimal, low tracking, high damage -> increase transversal or range.

Also like it's been said before, for PVE, this would help figuring out what you are up against.
Garia666
CyberShield Inc
HYDRA RELOADED
#507 - 2012-10-11 14:54:23 UTC
This is not an improvement but . back to the stone edge.
We have seen this al before..
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
The Mockers AO
#508 - 2012-10-11 14:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
CCP karkur wrote:

- Yes, the graphics are a bit wider now, but the old one had the module icons on the side so that should also count as the width of the targets. .


Are you saying you're removing the activated module icons from the side of the locked targets section?

How am I going to know which modules I have applied to which target? This is actually a very important part of the current.

And doing the whole "hover over my modules" thing does NOT cut it for me.

I did read a comment above that you are going to "connect" modules by highlighting over them, but I'm sorry, but this will NOT be sufficient - we should have a clear visual indication without more "hovering" over stuff for information that should be immediately visible. I go full shortcuts, and I don't have time to hover over my targets to figure out what module is going where and how because I'm manual piloting or reading other information, or telling 40 people what to do in a fleet fight, and so on and so forth.

Especially if you have friendlies locked, they won't be on your overview for PVP. And in situations where you may be repping one friendly and shooting an enemy, it's going to be impossible to know you have screwed up at a glance, and now you have to double check all your targets to see where you screwed up. I hope this is an oversight to be fixed. There is no reason to remove functionality as well, clicking on those active module icons on the side of a target deactivates them, which is a very useful way to turn modules off when you have, let's say, 3 webs on 3 different targets and you don't remember which one you activated, and it's a quick "click" the module to turn it off.

Please, make sure you keep the activated modules on the targeting layer.

Where I am.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#509 - 2012-10-11 14:56:31 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Myrkala wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
So.. Which one is shield?


The left one.

So..


  • Left: Shield
  • Right: Armor
  • Bottom: Structure

No, no no no. Shield is in top right, then go clockwise from there for armor and structure.


No. Not only do I agree with him (and clearly me > you!11!onetwelve), numerous people have posted it while only one or two backing your preference. That being said, since CCP since to prefer it your way, even tho most that even mention that specific subject here, it's quite clear that we all have very different preferences for whatever reasons. Some guy posted that he recommended we'd be able to decide ourselves which one of them that would be where, and we'd also be able to chose if the bars would descend/ascend when damage was done/taken as well - brilliant solution to this. It's quite clear this is not a crystal clear positioning of these bars, to begin with.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#510 - 2012-10-11 15:03:02 UTC
Angeliq wrote:

What about color blind ppl?


Good point. One possibility is to make the green blue, the way a lot of modern stoplights do. Another possibility is to have different shapes: square for red (octagon would look too much like a circle at that size), inverted triangle for yellow, circle for green/blue.

That should allow anyone to read the information at a glance.

Perhaps, make the flashy part configurable, so that if you're in an AC hurricane you can have the HUD flash when you're in falloff, instead of optimal. If you're in a blaster Brutix, you can have the HUD flash whenever you have a prayer of hitting something. :-P

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#511 - 2012-10-11 15:04:13 UTC
Two step wrote:
As I said elsewhere, maybe something like this:

Pic

Blue = Shields
Green = Armor
Orange = Hull
Black tick = speed (or something else?)


The black tick could be capacitor. I've always wanted an indicator for that, but the trick is not clluttering the screen or overview with it. This would work nicely... not that I have an issue with a single circle.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#512 - 2012-10-11 15:05:37 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Angeliq wrote:

What about color blind ppl?


Good point. One possibility is to make the green blue, the way a lot of modern stoplights do. Another possibility is to have different shapes: square for red (octagon would look too much like a circle at that size), inverted triangle for yellow, circle for green/blue.

That should allow anyone to read the information at a glance.

Perhaps, make the flashy part configurable, so that if you're in an AC hurricane you can have the HUD flash when you're in falloff, instead of optimal. If you're in a blaster Brutix, you can have the HUD flash whenever you have a prayer of hitting something. :-P


actually thats how the traffic lights in the uk are red, then blinky yellow and finally green... thatd allow enough differentiation =)
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#513 - 2012-10-11 15:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanth
Sable Blitzmann wrote:
Love the new changes. However, I was hoping for possibly adding capacitor state to the target lock. This is something that's been asked for again and again. We can see shields, armor, and structure hitpoint percentages, but we cannot read the targets capacitor. I think adding this will go a long way for those who like to neut. I know that I don't neut a lot because I'm unsure just how effective I am at disabling my target. Having this information will mix up pvp a bit.


I havn't gotten further than your post yet, so this might yet have been posted, but:

There is a module that shows you hostiles capacity. If you dumb down EVE and give free intel, that is already readily available for those who put more effort than you currently do, then you make their hard work pay off less and your lazy mode gets rewarded for.. nothing. No offense meant, by the way. I'm just respectfully disagreeing with your comment, and I disagree with everyone here that wants the bars to reflect the size of peoples tank, show EHP, percentage of damage intake and god knows what that makes the game virtually giving them free intel about hostiles.

There are currently rewards in actually fitting modules that tells you about enemy ships (check cap, check fitting, even disguise your targeting so enemy don't know you scan them, etc). Do you really think this game should be Hello Kitty in space where everyone is presented with information that completely offset the rewards for those who put in an effort? Doesn't that go against the very nature of both a sandbox, but also EVE through history?

This game has traditionally always rewarded those who put in an effort (or are lucky). Yet, 'poor' or slack players have always been able to fight those people, by offsetting it with tactics, numbers, etc. It's a very good balance, it's fair, etc. That balance is already struggling immensely right now, with all the blobs completely offsetting skill and tactics. My point: the least thing we need is even more reward for the lazy players, on the contratrary, we could really use more boosts to those who put in an effort. Perhaps we should just not let players see enemy shield/armor/hull totals AT ALL unless they fit modules or train spedific skills. Twisted (that's a joke, obviously, but it would still be better than dumbing down the game and rewarding lazy people)

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#514 - 2012-10-11 15:18:10 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Misanth wrote:
Sable Blitzmann wrote:
Love the new changes. However, I was hoping for possibly adding capacitor state to the target lock. This is something that's been asked for again and again. We can see shields, armor, and structure hitpoint percentages, but we cannot read the targets capacitor. I think adding this will go a long way for those who like to neut. I know that I don't neut a lot because I'm unsure just how effective I am at disabling my target. Having this information will mix up pvp a bit.


I havn't gotten further than your post yet, so this might yet have been posted, but:

There is a module that shows you hostiles capacity. If you dumb down EVE and give free intel, that is already readily available for those who put more effort than you currently do, then you make their hard work pay off less and your lazy mode gets rewarded for.. nothing. No offense meant, by the way. I'm just respectfully disagreeing with your comment, and I disagree with everyone here that wants the bars to reflect the size of peoples tank, show EHP, percentage of damage intake and god knows what that makes the game virtually giving them free intel about hostiles.

There are currently rewards in actually fitting modules that tells you about enemy ships (check cap, check fitting, even disguise your targeting so enemy don't know you scan them, etc). Do you really think this game should be Hello Kitty in space where everyone is presented with information that completely offset the rewards for those who put in an effort? Doesn't that go against the very nature of both a sandbox, but also EVE through history?

This game has traditionally always rewarded those who put in an effort (or are lucky). Yet, 'poor' or slack players have always been able to fight those people, by offsetting it with tactics, numbers, etc. It's a very good balance, it's fair, etc. That balance is already struggling immensely right now, with all the blobs completely offsetting skill and tactics. My point: the least thing we need is even more reward for the lazy players, on the contratrary, we could really use more boosts to those who put in an effort. Perhaps we should just not let players see enemy shield/armor/hull totals AT ALL unless they fit modules or train spedific skills. Twisted (that's a joke, obviously, but it would still be better than dumbing down the game and rewarding lazy people)


joking aside im totally for not seeing your enemies shield armor and hull status.. i think it'll provide more challenging gameplay
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#515 - 2012-10-11 15:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Misanth wrote:
There are currently rewards in actually fitting modules that tells you about enemy ships (check cap, check fitting, even disguise your targeting so enemy don't know you scan them, etc). Do you really think this game should be Hello Kitty in space where everyone is presented with information that completely offset the rewards for those who put in an effort? Doesn't that go against the very nature of both a sandbox, but also EVE through history?
…that said, there might be some merit to combining the two standpoints: what if fitting (and running) certain modules simply revealed more UI elements, Deus Ex-style*?

In this case, the ship scanner would be turned into a constantly active module instead of a one-shot deal, and give you that fourth health bar on the target display, showing cap, and maybe access to a drop down or fold-out menu with other fittings. Alternatively, it would give you a, say, 20-second window where that display is updated before it fades away and you need to ping the ship again. Since part of the goal of this whole exercise is to make information more readily available without spawning new windows all over the place, incorporating that information as add-ons to existing displays would be one way to go.

Thus, you get the benefit of fitting and running the module and the benefit of not having to wade through new windows to read the information you've bought with that fitting space and extra cap use.


* I'm sure other games than DX does it, but I couldn't think of any off the top of my head.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#516 - 2012-10-11 15:27:11 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:

- Yes, the graphics are a bit wider now, but the old one had the module icons on the side so that should also count as the width of the targets. .

Are you saying you're removing the activated module icons from the side of the locked targets section?

How am I going to know which modules I have applied to which target? This is actually a very important part of the current.

And doing the whole "hover over my modules" thing does NOT cut it for me. .
No, we are not Smile
this is what I wrote... I've highlighted the part you might be interested in P

Quote:
- Yes, the graphics are a bit wider now, but the old one had the module icons on the side so that should also count as the width of the targets.
- the height of the old ones is greater, but then I have to add a little bit to the bottom of the new ones because that's where the active modules appear.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Kage Toshimado
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#517 - 2012-10-11 15:31:28 UTC
space chikun wrote:
[

I hate to break it to you, I've only heard complaints from a small number of people on the UI. It was difficult to get used to, but once you've actually taken the time to explore its features, it makes a GREAT NUMBER of tasks a LOT easier than before. And a very, very small number a tiny bit more difficult if you're in a hurry.

Who am I kidding, I do like breaking it to you - just like Prism X, I'm getting sick of the vocal few jumping up and down like toddlers whenever CCP wants to make their game look cool or function in a more modern way. Just because you're USED to the crappy old way, doesn't mean the game should continue using the crappy way.

The game needs players to keep getting better. This change makes it more accessible for some players, and knowing CCP, there's probably a backend revamp that went with this to make it less laggy. I hope. Well lag never gets fixed, just induced, so I could be wrong.


You're not breaking anything to me. We probably just hang out with different playerbase. Players I fly with, who pvp, have needs to change ships quickly on the dock or undock, pick up loot quickly, etc... we hate it. It is too slow, and takes too much time to loot something. This is the majority of people I fly with.

Maybe you and the players you hang with have the time to enjoy this crappy new way because, I don't know, maybe you have all the time in the world and don't mind the lag?

Changing the interface in the game mechanics for the worse, doesn't make players "better"
Angeliq
Meet The Fockers
#518 - 2012-10-11 15:35:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Angeliq
What about this for a targeting UI redesign/update?

http://oi45.tinypic.com/a2rvc.jpg Excuse my paint skill, I only trained it to lvl 1.

Just like now, you could place the targets anywhere on screen, aligned vertical or horizontal but on multiple columns and rows configuration, depending on ship types. You could have all fleet/corp/alliance/blue targets on one side of the screen and all neutral/reds on the other side, sorted by ship types. I think you can figure it out for yourselves how useful this layout would be.

wow much space very ship such pvp many pew

Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
#519 - 2012-10-11 15:48:05 UTC
CCP Masheen wrote:
mkint wrote:
What will the new indicator icons look like on the overview?


Good question!

Short answer: in Retribution we're not changing the overview.

Does this also mean that there will be no way in the Overview to see who has specific (suspect, criminal, etc) flags?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#520 - 2012-10-11 15:50:49 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Maria Kitiare wrote:
Most of your players read from left to right, so if You insist on giving us those circles, please make it so shield is on the left side, armor on the right and hull on the bottom. This will also make it more in line with the current mod timer animation that starts in the bottom and moves around..
The day starts at midnight, at 12 o'clock, which is at the top of the clock, and the day progresses clock-wise. The targeting animation starts at "12 o'clock" and progresses clock-wise, same for the damage (shields starts at "12 o'clock"). Your mod timer animation observation is correct, it progresses clock-wise but starts at "6 o'clock"; perhaps that should be changed to start at "12 o'clock" as well. But that's for CCP karkur and Team Pony Express to think about if and how they want to tackle, not me. Big smile

I'm very happy with things over all, but I must make one point very clear in reference to the above post.

The most intuitive starting point for shields is the upper left quadrant, then armor in the upper right, then structure on the bottom... with damage progressing around the circle clockwise as it is now.

This is perhaps something only apparent to a player, and if I were messing with the coding I might well lose sight of this, but there you have it.

Starting at 12 will work, but it is not NEARLY as intuitive for a new (or veteran player) as going from upper left, to upper right, to bottom.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.