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Dev blog: Stay on Target!

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Panhead4411
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#441 - 2012-10-11 12:24:30 UTC
marly cortez wrote:
1. Pilots will just turn anything off that distracts them.

2. Pilots will just turn anything off that might possibly contribute to latency.

3. Pilots that engage in PvP will have the experience to know who is who and what threat they pose.

4. Pilots that engage in PvE will not give a damn about flashing stuff, they just kill everything and move on quickly.

5. Pilots in Fleet fights will have graphics turned down, brackets off and use only minimal information to fight.

While I fully understand the need for children to get out there crayons and draw brightly coloured pictures this Dev blog just confirms my belief that CCP has no real understanding of how players actually play EVE, what it is they actually need CCP to fix and why if they wish to increase the player enjoyment of the game they 'NEED', to get a handle on this aspect before they go forwards in this manner.

Introducing fancy flashing thingy's into the game may from there point of view be everything to them right now, play EVE and the multitude of former bugs still evident in the game to a player is the real detractor in EVE.

Want something that will actually make EVE a better place to be, sort the PoS interface maybe, or invest in the servers to reduce latency, maybe correct the chat system, heard about that one have you,

In short try and understand what it is that makes EVE players tick, why are they here in the first place and when they are here what is it they actually do and I can assure you it is not spend every minute trying to kill each other while drooling over your inept attempts at Disney graphics.

If you are determined to introduce this flight of fancy into the game could you please do the one thing that players will really enjoy and add a button to change these graphics to a minimalistic design for those of us that have no need of them, you know the sort of thing, no clutter, less distraction sort of thing, the very reason the original hud/target graphics were changed to begin with all those years ago.



This. Seriously CCP, play your own game before making change for change sake.

Also
Rommiee wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Angeliq wrote:
WE NEED THE SECONDS!
We need to know how many seconds it takes to lock a target not to see a filling circle. What's wrong with you ppl? EVE is about information, numbers and tactic. Instead of making the UI more intuitive and add useful info to it, you guys are going in the opposite direction.

http://oi45.tinypic.com/fa7ts8.jpg

As I said in the blog, this is very much work in progress and we have plenty of time to add one simple counter Smile.
It's def. something we will reconsider since some of you feel so strongly about it, and it might very well make a return Smile


Why the hell would you even consider removing it in the first place ? Seriously


Its just like the "DATE" thing, they thought, oh, well players never really use it, and the info can be found in other areas burried behind mouse clicks, so since they don't use it, we'll remove it. Turns out CCP was wrong, and since then there have been very few "thanks for removing the useless date" threads...

Why do we continue to pay your salaries when this is what you spend your time doing?

http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing    < Unified Inventory is NOT ready...
space chikun
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#442 - 2012-10-11 12:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: space chikun
Panhead4411 wrote:


This. Seriously CCP, play your own game before making change for change sake.



They do. This was posted by the *art* and *experience* team, dude. This is their job to make it pretty and somewhat useful. The code behind this was probably minimal (relative to the FEATURES they're adding with Winter), the rest was art. It's a concept they're sharing early on, why you so mad?

Panhead4411 wrote:

Why do we continue to pay your salaries when this is what you spend your time doing?


... doing their job? What?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#443 - 2012-10-11 12:27:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
space chikun wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Heh, to achieve this it would be easier just to present "our" shield/armor/hull in same kind of way they are currently displayed for targets :)

Pretty much what I was just trying to say.

Sure, but that would probably have to come at the cost of not having as (visually) detailed information about your damage, and my instinctive feeling is that it's far more important for me to have such details about my own ship than about the enemy.

I don't disagree that the HUD could use a bit of polish and renewal; I just think that the three-layered display actually serves a useful purpose there and manages to do it without being too bloated. But it's an interesting balance to strike between consistency and the relative need for detailed information.

Viscount Hood wrote:
Reminds me a little bit of the original interface.
Looks good sofar, although I think it should start at 9 o'clock, who starts at 12 o'clock - only students!
Naah. Around here, students start at quarter past for historical reasons (viz. the cathedral rang in every hour, at which point it was time to go to class, which took no more than 15 minutes). P
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#444 - 2012-10-11 12:28:14 UTC
I like this.

It's an added bonus, that when you remove the three bars below our target, we get "more space and less UI" on the screen. You guys at CCP (Punkturis especially) have a habit of making all fancy looking UI stuff that blocks everything else on the screen, completely eating up all visibility. These changes, altho early in development, is actually doing something rare as in showing more EVE and less blobbed up massive UI blocks - that alone is worth pat on the back.

TL;DR
- Better information read-out from targetboxes = win
- Less UI blocking actual screenspace = win

Looks good so far, me likes it.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Angeliq
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#445 - 2012-10-11 12:29:52 UTC
marly cortez wrote:
1. Pilots will just turn anything off that distracts them.

2. Pilots will just turn anything off that might possibly contribute to latency.

3. Pilots that engage in PvP will have the experience to know who is who and what threat they pose.

4. Pilots that engage in PvE will not give a damn about flashing stuff, they just kill everything and move on quickly.

5. Pilots in Fleet fights will have graphics turned down, brackets off and use only minimal information to fight.

While I fully understand the need for children to get out there crayons and draw brightly coloured pictures this Dev blog just confirms my belief that CCP has no real understanding of how players actually play EVE, what it is they actually need CCP to fix and why if they wish to increase the player enjoyment of the game they 'NEED', to get a handle on this aspect before they go forwards in this manner.

Introducing fancy flashing thingy's into the game may from there point of view be everything to them right now, play EVE and the multitude of former bugs still evident in the game to a player is the real detractor in EVE.

Want something that will actually make EVE a better place to be, sort the PoS interface maybe, or invest in the servers to reduce latency, maybe correct the chat system, heard about that one have you,

In short try and understand what it is that makes EVE players tick, why are they here in the first place and when they are here what is it they actually do and I can assure you it is not spend every minute trying to kill each other while drooling over your inept attempts at Disney graphics.

If you are determined to introduce this flight of fancy into the game could you please do the one thing that players will really enjoy and add a button to change these graphics to a minimalistic design for those of us that have no need of them, you know the sort of thing, no clutter, less distraction sort of thing, the very reason the original hud/target graphics were changed to begin with all those years ago.



^^THIS^^

wow much space very ship such pvp many pew
Colman Dietmar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#446 - 2012-10-11 12:32:36 UTC
I like all of this. And I'm convinced that in dynamic it will be clear which bar is shield etc. Also, I think that using much color would not fit EVE style, better keep it grey-ish.

I'd also like to note that you might want to make the damage notification fading speed dynamic based on damage, since with weapons like large artillery, hits will be coming in rarely and if something takes out 50% of your HP and goes silent for 20 seconds, you want the flash to stay there for a bit in case you miss it the moment it occurs. Or, on the second thought, you might base it on the attacker weapon's cycle time, so that it fades completely only once the cycle finishes.

And finally, I realy hope that you'll find a way to squeeze damage notification into the overview. That would double the usefulness of the feature.
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#447 - 2012-10-11 12:34:35 UTC
Cerulean Ice wrote:
CCP Prism X gets it.


Dude I'm trolling.

CCP Sisyphus wrote:
corestwo wrote:
So, uh...how do you tell what's shield/armor/structure with the circle then? Try coloring them, perhaps.


Yes, we're still tweaking that. When you see the damage being inflicted it is very obvious, but a common theme of all feedback has been 'which one is shield?'


Covered on page one. And multiple other pages. And the DevBlog clearly states this is a work in progress and not a final We're shipping this straight in your FACE! Dev blog.
I'm also on the team, so clearly the team members are aware of this flaw.

I'm probably being a rear-end-hat but it's very annoying to get the same feedback over and over again when you've already acknowledged it. It gives you the feeling that people are not reading the discussion. If they are not reading the discussion, then it's not a discussion but a shouting match.

I just thought I'd clarify why I'm clearly trolling my coworkers rather than invite a misundertanding into the feedback.

But on a lighter, more positive note: There's a lot of good feedback here. And a discussion between BobFromMarketing and Tippia.

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter
Oscar Mars
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#448 - 2012-10-11 12:36:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Oscar Mars
Thank You, that's long overdue, even for me.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#449 - 2012-10-11 12:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
Thank you for trying to optimize the player experience - The combat UI is definately deserving a look into.

I do like the new graphics, however a warning (or 3) :

The new rounded hitbox bars can be very confusing because with a little big of damage to all styates of a hostile ship can be a tricky quest to read - what bar simulates shield / armor / structure..?
I would at a glance think the left part of the circle to be shields, right part to be armor and bottom part to be structure, however activating my learned knowledge would start reading from 12 o'clock on the clock icon. My point is people are different and you might end up confusing people if you are not very clear with your graphics :-) I still don't know when fitting my ships if the modules to the left on my lowslots in the fitting screen will appear left or right on my HUD in space due to the circular fitting layout. (I suck - I know)

Also the module clock timer indication (the white bar orbiting the modules to simulate cycles) is ****** up and doesn't follow module cycles properly. It doesn't seem to start at 12 o'clock or end at the same place it starts. This definately need to be looked into and fixed when handling these things...

Also when people agress it is one of the most important things to know in pvp. If you are waiting to start an engagement it is necesary to know if people are agressing (because then they cannot dock/jump etc) or fleeing (because springing a trap too early is the sux). If people are agressed make sure the color is solid and impossible to miss...

Pinky Denmark

Questions: Will all of this be displayed all 3 places? (screen, targeting row and overview...)

Also sorry for bringing up the which is shield part again...
I just felt I'd bring up everything I got fromt he devblog in a
constructive manner not excluding anything...
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#450 - 2012-10-11 12:41:30 UTC
Main thing I can think of, unless you're a goldfish, 'which one is their shields' is a question that will be answered the very first time you use it. And it only needs answered once.

Once you know, it's entirely intuitive.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#451 - 2012-10-11 12:43:11 UTC
Kage Toshimado wrote:
Here we go again.

Why do you mess with things that are perfectly fine....Squares to Circles?

It's like some designer is trying to keep his job, has done nothing relevant, and when it was his turn to stand up and present everyone in the meeting with what he had been working on, he had nothing.

He says to himself.... think think!!!

"Gentlemen, we are going to turn the locking mechanism from squares... to circles!!! Eh eh!!!??? Sounds good right!?!"

Everyone else in the room is like.. yeah, ok, whatever.

Why CCP? It's like the Unified Inventory. People said it was crap, people still say it's crap. Why break something that doesn't need breaking? Ugh


This

And once this is introduced in whichever format CCP decide (as it makes no difference what any of us say) make absolutely sure that it will not induce more lag, or any slowdown of client operation whatsoever.

Don’t forget the option to turn this off and revert to the much clearer square targeting icon.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#452 - 2012-10-11 12:43:33 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
please make sure that you can find the selected item on the edge of the screen easier. Right now if you select something on the overview and are under bad light or system backgground conditions. you have to rotate the cam and search quite a bit till you see it on screeen. This makes dscanning even more anoying as it already is in some systems. The new circle instead of the rect will help somewhat, maybe make it blink once or twice after selecting it to help out a bit.


This is a major problem with the sky, and system layout in general, to be honest.

I have several different installments of EVE, and some clients have massive issues in certain systems while others have none. And the systems with the lighter sky (bit gold/brown/yellow-ish) is an absolute mess. Only the really black/dark skies function properly. But it's still potentially horrible if the belts are somewhere near the sun, even with 'sun is occluded by ships' setting ticked.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#453 - 2012-10-11 12:45:42 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
But on a lighter, more positive note: There's a lot of good feedback here. And a discussion between BobFromMarketing and Tippia.
Lol Humour. Also, rather generous to call that a “discussion”.

Anyway, more related to this last page of the actual discussion, do you guys have any plans for updating the HUD to match this new style for enemy targets? I'm thinking that some thing might simply be that: not just a change from what's familiar but also a clash with how similar information is displayed elsewhere.
Kage Toshimado
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#454 - 2012-10-11 12:46:18 UTC
"And the DevBlog clearly states this is a work in progress and not a final We're shipping this straight in your FACE! Dev blog.
I'm also on the team, so clearly the team members are aware of this flaw."

Prism,

Not to heap on, but you have to understand that we are tired of this. Many, many people don't like the Unified Inventory, and we were told it was a work in progress and then BAM!!! we all got this piece of garbage anyhow.

If we don't speak up, chances are (at least we are worried) we'll have this forced upon us as well.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#455 - 2012-10-11 12:46:38 UTC
Myxx wrote:
So, any way to make this something we don't need to have forced on us? I kinda like the current targeting UI atm.


CCP always forces stuff on us. You could just take a look at the Door and ship spinning. We had to make major hell, spam negative publicity across the web/everywhere, and yet it took them half a year to just give us ship spinning back. And the option to turn off walking in station was nothing they even considered to begin with. Higher ups in CCP likes to dictate gameplay, they misunderstood that players should run the sandbox, not them.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#456 - 2012-10-11 12:49:42 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
The red damaged stripes.. why they are not progressing counter clockwise? I think it's more intuitive. All damage is counterclockwise. This new circle indicators are different.
Heat buildup (on the HUD) is like a pressure gauge and builds up clock-wise. Module damage (due to heat) is clock-wise. The new targeting/damage system is clock-wise. The odd one out will be the HUD itself, there damage is counter-clock-wise. Are there any other damage indicators?

Most people associate "clockwise" with "left to right". When you turn your car to the right, you are doing a clockwise circle. Turn to the left, a counterclockwise circle. The current damage bars under the targeted items go to the left. In fact don't all damage bars, those on the watch list, those for drones, etc increase as they go left?

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
space chikun
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#457 - 2012-10-11 12:51:18 UTC
Kage Toshimado wrote:
"And the DevBlog clearly states this is a work in progress and not a final We're shipping this straight in your FACE! Dev blog.
I'm also on the team, so clearly the team members are aware of this flaw."

Prism,

Not to heap on, but you have to understand that we are tired of this. Many, many people don't like the Unified Inventory, and we were told it was a work in progress and then BAM!!! we all got this piece of garbage anyhow.

If we don't speak up, chances are (at least we are worried) we'll have this forced upon us as well.



I hate to break it to you, I've only heard complaints from a small number of people on the UI. It was difficult to get used to, but once you've actually taken the time to explore its features, it makes a GREAT NUMBER of tasks a LOT easier than before. And a very, very small number a tiny bit more difficult if you're in a hurry.

Who am I kidding, I do like breaking it to you - just like Prism X, I'm getting sick of the vocal few jumping up and down like toddlers whenever CCP wants to make their game look cool or function in a more modern way. Just because you're USED to the crappy old way, doesn't mean the game should continue using the crappy way.

The game needs players to keep getting better. This change makes it more accessible for some players, and knowing CCP, there's probably a backend revamp that went with this to make it less laggy. I hope. Well lag never gets fixed, just induced, so I could be wrong.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#458 - 2012-10-11 12:52:16 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
I'm probably being a rear-end-hat but it's very annoying to get the same feedback over and over again when you've already acknowledged it. It gives you the feeling that people are not reading the discussion. If they are not reading the discussion, then it's not a discussion but a shouting match.


Well, maybe if those designs and mockups were about really useful changes like it was with ewar bar addition you would get more reasonable or consistent feedback. Let's be honest, with brackets disabled half of this work won't be noticed and I personally would prefer to see velocity/transversal/angular info below locked target "rectangle" than indicator of target being in locking range. Right now it is basically circles vs rectangles "discussion" as somebody mentioned few pages ago.

Invalid signature format
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#459 - 2012-10-11 12:56:31 UTC
marly cortez wrote:
1. Pilots in null sec blobs will just turn anything off that distracts them.

2. Pilots in null sec blobs will just turn anything off that might possibly contribute to latency.

3. no, this one is just wrong in general

4. Pilots in null sec blobs that engage in PvE will not give a damn about flashing stuff, they just kill everything and move on quickly.

5. Pilots in Null Sec blob fights will have graphics turned down, brackets off and use only minimal information to fight.



Fixed

I have never had problems with bracket lag or graphical lag, maybe because I don't fly in fleets of huge numbers...I would think most people not in a blob would have the same experience for the most part.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#460 - 2012-10-11 12:58:46 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Prism X
Kage Toshimado wrote:
Prism,

Not to heap on, but you have to understand that we are tired of this. Many, many people don't like the Unified Inventory, and we were told it was a work in progress and then BAM!!! we all got this piece of garbage anyhow.

If we don't speak up, chances are (at least we are worried) we'll have this forced upon us as well.


I'm not telling you to keep your opinions to yourself. Merely saying thta there's a difference between feedback and repeating the same feedback over and over again despite said feedback having been acknowledged.

Why am I saying this? It's not because we've got fragile egos and will cry ourselves to sleep if you don't treat us kindly.

It's because it creates a very bad atmosphere. We cant acknowledge the same feedback over and over again, so eventually we stop answering the question. That makes somebody feel like he is being ignored when it's really the issue having already been covered. That makes people angry. They start posting angry. Newcomers come to the thread and see an angry poster talking about being ignored. A bandwagon is created. Constructive feedback, such as making the triangles spin wildly out of control if your tracking is too **** for the traversal velocity, gets lost. Everybody loses and goes home a bit angrier than they had to.

That being said, I'm no saint. That should be obvious by the fact that I troll my own coworkers. But I cant do that if I start creating problems by doing that. Which is why I'm now making a longwinded attempt to re-rail the discussion that I feel I may have de-railed somewhat.

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter