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A capital-class mining barge?
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Idris Helion
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-10-05 18:13:01 UTC
I've been thinking about the implications in this thread. Is there really a shortage of low-ends on the market? Is that why Veld, Scord, Plag, and Pyrox are more valuable than any ore besides Arkonor? Doesn't this mean something is badly out of whack in New Eden?

I've been a skeptic until now because like most people, I simply assumed that high-ends had been flooding the market due to a) the lingering stockpiles of drone-region minerals, b) overmining of high-ends by nullsec bears, and c) the large sov wars going on right now that chew up a lot of caps and supercaps. That's a lot of trit and pye to rebuild the fleets, hence huge demand.

I've been wondering if part of the reason for the mining barge buff was to increase rather than decrease the flow of minerals into the game to offset the drone-region and bot-killing efforts. If so...I'm not sure that effort is working, at least not enough to put New Eden's economy back into equilibrium. Miners aren't flocking to the trade -- players instead are opting for the stupidly-easy ISK to be made in FW right now to bother with mining. So even with incredibly capable barges and sky-high ore and mineral prices, supply of low-ends isn't enough to keep up with demand.

Assuming this is true (and it might not be)...what to do?

I'm wondering if it might make sense to build a dedicated capital-class mining barge for use out in null. A mining monster that has a freighter-sized ore hold, and lasers that can bust even the biggest Spod rock in a reasonable amount of time. It might even include a built-in 50% refinery. This would serve two purposes: it would make mining of low-ends more attractive in null, and it would restore the balance between low-ends and high-ends. If miners could efficiently mine Veld and Scord out in null, they could replace their own losses without overburdening the market in high (and save money on transport in the bargain).

It might even be possible to re-purpose the Rorqual for this role.

Thoughts?
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#2 - 2012-10-05 18:58:19 UTC
Why should better tools be handed out to Null sec players? by doing that it would destroy the current profession of mining and slap it back to how it was with drone poo

CCP has offered the tools to make stupid easy isk in FW/Sleepers/Incursions for example i can make 60-90m an hour with one acct while it takes 4 accts mining to get to that level of income per hour so IMO its fine leave it alone

mining is now slowly catching up to it as a reasonable choice for thoes that like the profession adding a capital belt **** machine will only restore things back to the deflated market they had seen previously thus killing mining for HS pilots again and making other activites the go to

the markets will eventually stabalize on its own power if not the skys the limit
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#3 - 2012-10-05 19:08:09 UTC
A T2 Roqal that could equip mining lasers/strips would be nice. But they cost a lot and thus are rarely seen outside the protection of POS shields. So no mining even if they could.

One thing I have suggested several times that I believe would fill this niche would be a simple capital class mining laser. No new ship needed. Just a single module. Since caps can not go to high sec this would be a low/null only module. Except for of course Chribba's fleet.

Capital ships have rather small cargo holds so hauling logistics would still be a big issue.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-10-05 19:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Idris Helion
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Capital ships have rather small cargo holds so hauling logistics would still be a big issue.


That's why I think a new hull is needed. One with a huge freighter-sized ore bay and a built-in 50% refinery, to take the ouch out of the logistics in null. As you say, though, it's probably not practical for mining because you'd have to give it an uber-tank to be able to survive.

It does seem odd that CCP hasn't come up with a better industrial vessel than the Rorqual for nullsec, though. It's only useful when used inside a POS shield, which means it's basically just a glorified ore-compression machine. It could be replaced with a POS module that does the same thing, probably. What you really need is a ship that can efficiently mine those huge rocks out in null and at the same time not not impose murderous logistics hassles.

I mined in null for a long time, and if it weren't for the lousy price high-ends fetch these days, I'd still be there. Life in nullsec can be much more interesting than life in highsec, especially if you get caught up in a sov war. It adds a bit of spice to the sedate life of a rock-grinder.

But more than that, I fear that something very fundamental in EVE's economy is slowly going askew. The FW and Incursions features are warping the economy into some very weird and perhaps untenable shapes. If CCP can't manage to find a balance between creation and destruction in EVE, we may find the game economy simply crashing due to hyperinflation.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-10-05 19:39:36 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Capital ships have rather small cargo holds so hauling logistics would still be a big issue.


That's why I think a new hull is needed. One with a huge freighter-sized ore bay and a built-in 50% refinery, to take the ouch out of the logistics in null. As you say, though, it's probably not practical for mining because you'd have to give it an uber-tank to be able to survive.

It does seem odd that CCP hasn't come up with a better industrial vessel than the Rorqual for nullsec, though. It's only useful when used inside a POS shield, which means it's basically just a glorified ore-compression machine. It could be replaced with a POS module that does the same thing, probably. What you really need is a ship that can efficiently mine those huge rocks out in null and at the same time not not impose murderous logistics hassles.

I mined in null for a long time, and if it weren't for the lousy price high-ends fetch these days, I'd still be there. Life in nullsec can be much more interesting than life in highsec, especially if you get caught up in a sov war. It adds a bit of spice to the sedate life of a rock-grinder.

But more than that, I fear that something very fundamental in EVE's economy is slowly going askew. The FW and Incursions features are warping the economy into some very weird and perhaps untenable shapes. If CCP can't manage to find a balance between creation and destruction in EVE, we may find the game economy simply crashing due to hyperinflation.


The refinery would have to be 100% otherwise people will still haul to highsec for maximum yield.

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qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-10-05 19:55:59 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
I've been thinking about the implications in this thread. Is there really a shortage of low-ends on the market? Is that why Veld, Scord, Plag, and Pyrox are more valuable than any ore besides Arkonor? Doesn't this mean something is badly out of whack in New Eden?

I've been a skeptic until now because like most people, I simply assumed that high-ends had been flooding the market due to a) the lingering stockpiles of drone-region minerals, b) overmining of high-ends by nullsec bears, and c) the large sov wars going on right now that chew up a lot of caps and supercaps. That's a lot of trit and pye to rebuild the fleets, hence huge demand.

I've been wondering if part of the reason for the mining barge buff was to increase rather than decrease the flow of minerals into the game to offset the drone-region and bot-killing efforts. If so...I'm not sure that effort is working, at least not enough to put New Eden's economy back into equilibrium. Miners aren't flocking to the trade -- players instead are opting for the stupidly-easy ISK to be made in FW right now to bother with mining. So even with incredibly capable barges and sky-high ore and mineral prices, supply of low-ends isn't enough to keep up with demand.

Assuming this is true (and it might not be)...what to do?

I'm wondering if it might make sense to build a dedicated capital-class mining barge for use out in null. A mining monster that has a freighter-sized ore hold, and lasers that can bust even the biggest Spod rock in a reasonable amount of time. It might even include a built-in 50% refinery. This would serve two purposes: it would make mining of low-ends more attractive in null, and it would restore the balance between low-ends and high-ends. If miners could efficiently mine Veld and Scord out in null, they could replace their own losses without overburdening the market in high (and save money on transport in the bargain).

It might even be possible to re-purpose the Rorqual for this role.

Thoughts?



Add a module to get more labs and factories in player owned stations. Or..
Make it so slots in a lab can be rented by players, without them seing or being able to cancel jobs.

And make all spod rocks into scordite
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-10-05 19:59:39 UTC
Just a couple quick questions.

First, how many years has drone poo existed, effectively flooding the markets with minerals from "gun mining"

Second, how many months has it been since drone poo was removed?

Last, how many months has it been since the barges were changed?

How long do you think it will take the markets to adjust?

I'd say you are being premature.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-10-05 20:25:09 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Just a couple quick questions.

First, how many years has drone poo existed, effectively flooding the markets with minerals from "gun mining"

Second, how many months has it been since drone poo was removed?

Last, how many months has it been since the barges were changed?

How long do you think it will take the markets to adjust?

I'd say you are being premature.


People have built this drone-poo into a gigantic mythical stockpile of riches in their heads. I think a lot of it is overblown -- there's some stockpiles out there, but I don't think they're as big as everyone thinks they are. People have assumed that there's some huge Scrooge McDuck mountain of high-end minerals sitting out there, being fed out into the market rather than being used up in construction of caps and supercaps out in null. I just don't think that's true any more. I'm not saying there aren't any stockpiles; I'm just saying those stockpiles aren't the vast mountains that people say they are.

I think what we're seeing is a real shortage of low-end minerals, in other words: low-ends and high-ends have swapped places. Not enough miners are grinding up Veld and Scord rocks to meet supply, hence prices go up. I'm just wondering why that is, given the huge buff to mining vessels in the last release. Maybe it's still too early to see the results, but I doubt it -- it's been a couple of months now, enough time for the changes to start to show.

I might be wrong (In fact, I probably am), but it really does seem like there's a gargantuan hunger for trit and pye out in null that isn't being met by mining in high sec. The problem isn't a lack of good roids or good mining barges. It seems really to be a lack of enough miners willing to sit in the belts. Without bots and drone-drops augmenting the highsec mining yield, there just aren't enough low-end minerals being produced. If that's really the case, then the answer is to find a way to make mining more attractive in nullsec...because high sec mining is about as good as it can get, realistically. The only way to increase low-end mineral yield more is to get more low sec and nullsec bears out in the belts, running lasers on Veld and Scord.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-10-05 20:42:20 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Just a couple quick questions.

First, how many years has drone poo existed, effectively flooding the markets with minerals from "gun mining"

Second, how many months has it been since drone poo was removed?

Last, how many months has it been since the barges were changed?

How long do you think it will take the markets to adjust?

I'd say you are being premature.


People have built this drone-poo into a gigantic mythical stockpile of riches in their heads. I think a lot of it is overblown -- there's some stockpiles out there, but I don't think they're as big as everyone thinks they are. People have assumed that there's some huge Scrooge McDuck mountain of high-end minerals sitting out there, being fed out into the market rather than being used up in construction of caps and supercaps out in null. I just don't think that's true any more. I'm not saying there aren't any stockpiles; I'm just saying those stockpiles aren't the vast mountains that people say they are.

I think what we're seeing is a real shortage of low-end minerals, in other words: low-ends and high-ends have swapped places. Not enough miners are grinding up Veld and Scord rocks to meet supply, hence prices go up. I'm just wondering why that is, given the huge buff to mining vessels in the last release. Maybe it's still too early to see the results, but I doubt it -- it's been a couple of months now, enough time for the changes to start to show.

I might be wrong (In fact, I probably am), but it really does seem like there's a gargantuan hunger for trit and pye out in null that isn't being met by mining in high sec. The problem isn't a lack of good roids or good mining barges. It seems really to be a lack of enough miners willing to sit in the belts. Without bots and drone-drops augmenting the highsec mining yield, there just aren't enough low-end minerals being produced. If that's really the case, then the answer is to find a way to make mining more attractive in nullsec...because high sec mining is about as good as it can get, realistically. The only way to increase low-end mineral yield more is to get more low sec and nullsec bears out in the belts, running lasers on Veld and Scord.



Great job missing the entire point. I said nothing of stockpiles.

For an extremely long time there has been a system in place. Part of that system was the drone regions, which supplied large amounts of minerals to the market. That system got changed in a HUGE way mere months ago. New mining barges even less than that. It is going to take awhile for the market to reach a new equilibrium. It doesn't happen overnight.

Take PI for example. We are coming up on what 10 months since the Customs office changes? And with that nothing about PI changed except the customs offices and tax rates. And now, 10+ months later PI prices are still nothing like they were just before the changes.

You can't change that much and expect the market to find balance again in only a few months.
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#10 - 2012-10-05 20:51:24 UTC
Just a couple quick questions.

First, how many years has drone poo existed, effectively flooding the markets with minerals from "gun mining"?
a- i have only been playing for roughly 2 years im sure hte Poo has been around longer but at the same time the people stocking this stuff in Null have either used the majority of it up building or refined/sold to market so i would agree the "mythical poo mountain" is mostly speculation with no real proofs

Second, how many months has it been since drone poo was removed?
a- several and again most the stuff was in null used most likely IMo for building stuffz out that way for PvP etc

Last, how many months has it been since the barges were changed?
a- this has been what 3 months

How long do you think it will take the markets to adjust?
a- the market may never gain its former status where high-end minerals were more valuable then low-end
imo this is due to the fact that even though mining income has doubled since these changes it is still the weakest form of income in-game as stated previously i can make the same isk running incursions as it would cost me to run 3 miners/1orca mining team, still making mining very unattractive to most. Mining for me at least is more of a social gathering where me n my mates chat and scheme

at the current rate and voulme that low end minerals are needed to build shortages look more like the norm then anything and the price may keep jumping up, demand is huge supply is not from trends im watching.

cheers
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-10-05 21:00:46 UTC
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
Just a couple quick questions.

First, how many years has drone poo existed, effectively flooding the markets with minerals from "gun mining"?
a- i have only been playing for roughly 2 years im sure hte Poo has been around longer but at the same time the people stocking this stuff in Null have either used the majority of it up building or refined/sold to market so i would agree the "mythical poo mountain" is mostly speculation with no real proofs

Second, how many months has it been since drone poo was removed?
a- several and again most the stuff was in null used most likely IMo for building stuffz out that way for PvP etc

Last, how many months has it been since the barges were changed?
a- this has been what 3 months

How long do you think it will take the markets to adjust?
a- the market may never gain its former status where high-end minerals were more valuable then low-end
imo this is due to the fact that even though mining income has doubled since these changes it is still the weakest form of income in-game as stated previously i can make the same isk running incursions as it would cost me to run 3 miners/1orca mining team, still making mining very unattractive to most. Mining for me at least is more of a social gathering where me n my mates chat and scheme

at the current rate and voulme that low end minerals are needed to build shortages look more like the norm then anything and the price may keep jumping up, demand is huge supply is not from trends im watching.

cheers


Again not talking about the stockpiles, but thanks anyhow
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#12 - 2012-10-05 21:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cap James Tkirk
well possibly clear your questions up instead of making them general questions might help ya know vaugeness gets vauge answers

***edit***
guess he stockpiles and stopped reading Roll
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-10-05 21:15:53 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Great job missing the entire point. I said nothing of stockpiles.

For an extremely long time there has been a system in place. Part of that system was the drone regions, which supplied large amounts of minerals to the market. That system got changed in a HUGE way mere months ago. New mining barges even less than that. It is going to take awhile for the market to reach a new equilibrium. It doesn't happen overnight.

Take PI for example. We are coming up on what 10 months since the Customs office changes? And with that nothing about PI changed except the customs offices and tax rates. And now, 10+ months later PI prices are still nothing like they were just before the changes.

You can't change that much and expect the market to find balance again in only a few months.


I don't think you're making the point you think you're making.

If what you just said is true, then minerals like Isogen and Zydrine would be up. They're not. Omber is still as worthless as ever, as is Spod and Ochre in nullsec. Nocxium is good but not great, as is Mexallon. No, the kings of the hill are trit and pye, which means Veld and Scord. Which means that trit and pye, very specifically, are in heavy demand and low supply. This points to either speculation/hoarding, or to an actual shortage. Speculation and hoarding of a mineral as common as trit seems...unlikely. Even the goons wouldn't be able to muster the kind of ISK it would take to corner the trit market (at least, I hope not).

The drone region nerf alone wouldn't have put trit and pye into the position they're in now. I think CCP's war against the botters is a bigger variable -- it was more effective than they thought, and it cut a lot of supply of the low-end minerals. (Actual human beings, it turns out, have issues with sitting in an ore belt 23x7 running lasers on rocks. Even for miners, that's asking a lot.)

High sec mining is maxed out, that's what I'm starting to think. Everyone who wants to mine, is mining. It's not enough to meet demand, hence the high prices. It's possible that this is strictly a temporary state of affairs, but I'm beginning to doubt it. Three months in EVE's markets is a long time, and this trend shows no signs of slowing down.

We've also got a lot of new ship hulls coming into the game in the winter expansion, which means a whole bunch of ship-building -- hence a lot more trit and pye demand. Trit at 6.20 may be seen as "the good old days" come December.
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#14 - 2012-10-05 21:24:06 UTC
I agree with that Idris, humans cannot and will not sit and do something quite as mindless as mine for 23/7 (at least not sane ones) and since mining atm is still the lowest form of income ingame people will not flock to it even with the current barge/exhumer changes.

Gun mining is still in effect via mission runners that reprocess the items they get for minerals E.G. i ran missions for 4 hours and with perfect refining of the materials was able to pull 125m in minerals out that junk so mining is still bottom of the barrel economically and fun as watching flys fack.

like i said when i mine its mostly for RnR and talking about what we plan on training/doing etc. since i can at the same time run in incursions and essentially double my profits 90m (mining) + 90m (incursions) so untill mining reachs parallel with other activites espically in HS the minerals will rise and rise as fleets are whelped and caps need building to hold space

Kazu'ul
OMG PWNAGE
#15 - 2012-10-05 21:27:35 UTC
I think the point is that since most players can make more money doing other things, not many are mining. AT THE POINT that it becomes lucrative (pyerite 25 p/u) you will see a flood of players mining it. Until then, people seem happy to pay the inflated prices. The sov tug-o-war will continue, ships will be built. The little miner newbies will profit. Problem? I see none.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-10-05 21:28:52 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Great job missing the entire point. I said nothing of stockpiles.

For an extremely long time there has been a system in place. Part of that system was the drone regions, which supplied large amounts of minerals to the market. That system got changed in a HUGE way mere months ago. New mining barges even less than that. It is going to take awhile for the market to reach a new equilibrium. It doesn't happen overnight.

Take PI for example. We are coming up on what 10 months since the Customs office changes? And with that nothing about PI changed except the customs offices and tax rates. And now, 10+ months later PI prices are still nothing like they were just before the changes.

You can't change that much and expect the market to find balance again in only a few months.


I don't think you're making the point you think you're making.

If what you just said is true, then minerals like Isogen and Zydrine would be up. They're not. Omber is still as worthless as ever, as is Spod and Ochre in nullsec. Nocxium is good but not great, as is Mexallon. No, the kings of the hill are trit and pye, which means Veld and Scord. Which means that trit and pye, very specifically, are in heavy demand and low supply. This points to either speculation/hoarding, or to an actual shortage. Speculation and hoarding of a mineral as common as trit seems...unlikely. Even the goons wouldn't be able to muster the kind of ISK it would take to corner the trit market (at least, I hope not).

The drone region nerf alone wouldn't have put trit and pye into the position they're in now. I think CCP's war against the botters is a bigger variable -- it was more effective than they thought, and it cut a lot of supply of the low-end minerals. (Actual human beings, it turns out, have issues with sitting in an ore belt 23x7 running lasers on rocks. Even for miners, that's asking a lot.)

High sec mining is maxed out, that's what I'm starting to think. Everyone who wants to mine, is mining. It's not enough to meet demand, hence the high prices. It's possible that this is strictly a temporary state of affairs, but I'm beginning to doubt it. Three months in EVE's markets is a long time, and this trend shows no signs of slowing down.

We've also got a lot of new ship hulls coming into the game in the winter expansion, which means a whole bunch of ship-building -- hence a lot more trit and pye demand. Trit at 6.20 may be seen as "the good old days" come December.




The point I'm trying to make is quite simply it is too soon to tell. Does EVE currently need more miners? Sure they do. Or at least they need the existing miners to start mining different stuff. A system that existed for years was turned on its end less than 6 months ago and you expect the market to be stable already?

You seem to think you can already see the future of the mineral market. I'd say it is WAY too soon to be able make that determination. Certainly not enough to say a new class of mining vessel is needed.
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#17 - 2012-10-05 21:29:12 UTC
Kazu'ul wrote:
I think the point is that since most players can make more money doing other things, not many are mining. AT THE POINT that it becomes lucrative (pyerite 25 p/u) you will see a flood of players mining it. Until then, people seem happy to pay the inflated prices. The sov tug-o-war will continue, ships will be built. The little miner newbies will profit. Problem? I see none.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-10-05 21:33:00 UTC
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
Kazu'ul wrote:
I think the point is that since most players can make more money doing other things, not many are mining. AT THE POINT that it becomes lucrative (pyerite 25 p/u) you will see a flood of players mining it. Until then, people seem happy to pay the inflated prices. The sov tug-o-war will continue, ships will be built. The little miner newbies will profit. Problem? I see none.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this



This has been the case since the dawn of eve. Yet there are still miners.

There was even a time where mining was the only way to get minerals (before the drone regions existed.)
Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#19 - 2012-10-05 21:35:41 UTC
the future of minerals is happenign right now

they are on a up swing for somw and either stagnation or downfall for others

this is refered to as SUPPLY/DEAMND

atm the demand is huge rediculously so the supply is moderate to small

if your thinking 6 months shouldnt be enough time to SPECULATE on market trends and what not, i do have to ask where did you live when the US stock Exchange crashed after many years of gains it crashed and crashed hard

basically its what is happened here, the high calue commidites are crashing while others are rising the system is balanced itself out and continues to inflate/deflate as things change and the supply is not meet

the guys mining are happy doing the thing they do and i say great let them continue, but untill Inflation reaches a most astronimical level and the isk faucets are shoving the isk down our throats hand over fist we will pay and we will pay dearly for it.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-10-05 21:37:28 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
Kazu'ul wrote:
I think the point is that since most players can make more money doing other things, not many are mining. AT THE POINT that it becomes lucrative (pyerite 25 p/u) you will see a flood of players mining it. Until then, people seem happy to pay the inflated prices. The sov tug-o-war will continue, ships will be built. The little miner newbies will profit. Problem? I see none.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this



This has been the case since the dawn of eve. Yet there are still miners.

There was even a time where mining was the only way to get minerals (before the drone regions existed.)


Yeah, but EVE's population was a hell of a lot smaller then. And do you remember the wild swings in mineral prices every time CCP fiddled with the BPO requirements?

This is something different. The ore distributions in the game were always meant to drive people from higher-sec space into lower-sec space in the hunt for more ISK (risk vs reward). That mechanic has been turned on its head: to make more ISK you simply move back to highsec. Much less risk, far more ISK. It's not good for the game...and I say this as a confirmed highsec carebear who despises pirates with the heat of a thousand suns.
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