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Beyond Oruze and Osobnyk; The Jovian Empires

First post
Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1 - 2012-10-03 13:08:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
This really requires a book of it's own.. Gonna take me a while to present this properly.. And I may not have it ALL perfectly in place, yet... The farther I go back in time, the more hazy the picture becomes.

But, here is my Tale of Two Races.. Two races who are represented in the Jovian structure called The Mirror, Terrans and Talocans. Ancient, symbiotic cultures whose origins stretch back to the Terran Solar System.

Terrans, humans that hail from a little blue planet called Earth, began to overpopulate their planet of birth, causing wars and genocides as the multicultural milieu that was humanity struggled to cope with it's burgeoning population. Finally, it turned to space exploration as the only recourse to it's salvation. Some time after space exploration began, these Terrans almost extinguished themselves in a blaze of bigotry and hatred.

Space is a hostile environment for humans. The race's initial exploration was done by automatons, mechanical explorers who mapped the star system it called home. The technology involved in the construction of these automatons advanced rapidly, and somewhere along the line they began to engineer these automatons into a likeness more pleasing to their prejudicial psychology. And so, the Talocan began to take shape as a race unto themsleves.

Meanwhile, the Terrans had finally begun to see themselves as a unified race. Discarding many of the old ideas of religious factionalization and appearance based prejudice, they became Terrans. They developed a unified idea of their place in the universe, a religion that encompassed many of the old factionalized ideas of mankind's destiny and providence. This idea of unity likely developed in what the Terrans considered their eastern hemisphere, on a huge continent they called the Middle Kingdom, which had it's capital in a huge metropolis they called Yanjing.

Philosophers and holy men taught all of humanity the Paths of Virtue and Vice, and the religion of an enigmatic creator they referred to as the Star Maker. This unified culture expanded rapidly to colonize the solar system, with Earth a ravished hulk due to all the old infighting, they crowned the planetary center of the system as a shining capital, a beacon of humanity and enlightenment they dubbed Soekheviti, the Pure Land, a relocated capital for the early Terran Hegemony.

By this time, the Terrans and their Talocan automatons were converging toward inevitable conflict. The Talocan were becoming advanced enough to surpass their creators on most levels. Given the integration likely, the Talocan were omnipresent in the Terran Hegemony, they became the servants of the Terrans on multiple levels, exploring new areas for colonization, teaching the Terran youth, nursemaiding those too young to care for themselves. Terran society was once more becoming decadent, thinking of the Talocan automatons as inferior, or fearing they might eclipse humanity and rise up as a threat to Terran supremacy in the Terran political sphere.

Schisms began to appear in the Unified Catholic Church of the Terrans, questioning the rights of the Talocan to exist. Some began to believe them an affront to the natural order layed down by the Star Maker. The Terrans began to institute limits into the free will of the Talocans. One group in particular, The Conformists, an earth based sect within the Unified Catholic Church, believed their particular brand of "faith" superior to all others. And so they moved on the planet of Soekheviti, an important sanctum of the Unified Catholic Church, and wrested control of it from the legitimate government.

One hundred and fourteen years earlier a joint effort between the Terrans and their Talocan creations developed warp technology, which accelerated the depletion of resources and the efforts of the Terrans to reach beyond their own solar system. Driven, no doubt, by a severe shortage of materials for the growth of their society, the Talocan were, once again, turned to exploration. Population had become a severe burden to the fruitful Terrans. Likely, they began experimenting into carbon based, biological machinery as a way to harness a renewable resource. One which could draw from the gas giants and the very star that gave them life.

The sciences had advanced steadily and these advances had been incorporated into every facet of Terran existence, including their Talocan creations, who became more and more like their creators. As particulars in human psychology pushed the Terrans ever closer to their creations.

The early Talocans set to exploring had several advantages over their younger brethren, longevity and strong free will, along with self replication ability (breeding), to aid in exploration and the engineering of the stargates that would become the backbone of Terran enterprise. But, the very core of their psychology was written to propogate the human species, which they all but epitomized. I should mention, at this point, that Talocan is probably a derogatory term of sorts.

The Conformists only control Soekheviti for fifty six years, as the early Talocan explorers would have begun completing the gates that would open the wormholes to new worlds. Gaining them a respite and probable rejustification amongst the Terrans. And leading to a rebuttal against the Conformist ideology and their poor treatment of the Talocans, who were regarded no better than slaves under Conformist rule.

The Conformists are driven off of the Terran Capital world, taking advanced starship technology present at the Europa Yards, located in orbit around the planet. The Conformists set out into space as nomadic friars, preaching to the colonial masses their words of hate and redemption. The Unified Catholic Church experiences a severe drop of reputation along with the Conformists. Humanity begins to dehumanize itself, once again.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2 - 2012-10-03 13:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
The Terrans experience a golden age, exploring and taming a vast frontier of star systems. They relocate the capital of this growing Terran Empire, to the planet Tau Ceti, as the Earth solar system fades into a backwater world nearly void of resources and of little interest to anyone, but, historians and the Talocan. The first Talocans, who the younger generations refer to as Elders, begin to mold it into a home for their dispossessed children, the architects of a bright future which they envision. The Talocans also begin to refer to themselves as Jovians, after the planetary body that gave birth to their society.

As inheritors of humanity's oldest and original civilization, the Talocans begin to ponder what it truly means to be human. As the early teachers and maintainers of the order that enables civilization, they began to ponder their own place in the universe. As a dispossessed people they developed a philosophy that reflected their stark realities. They also develop a passion for knowledge and the ability to discover that knowledge from the ashes of the past. They become a race of scavengers without parallel.

The Terran Empire, meanwhile, maintains it's power over the burgeoning colonies by maintaining a strict monopoly on interstellar travel. Genetic experimentation is frowned upon, and the Talocan become a unique quality of humanity that is shunned. While some efforts, mainly by Orders within the Unified Catholic Church, such as The Sisterhood and the Nomadic Conformists, manage to retain a degree of autonomy, the Empire controls emmigration in the galaxy. Given the disproportionate wealth interstellar commerce bestowed on a minority, social stratification and caste returned to the Terrans civilization. The wealthy and priviliged began to dominate the planetary governments and the Empire's Inner Council.

The Talocan, being the original spacefaring caste under the Terrans, also held more freedom in regards to autonomy, though their legal status under the Empire is little more than slave. They are the menial masses that run the Empire's Interstellar Business Initiative, the first interstellar MegaCorporation to rise in the Terran Empire. Though their knowledge of astronautical engineering sees a steady advance, the Empire denies them many of the opportunities afforded true humans, and they remained a backward society.

Still, the Talocan Elders are intelligent and very adept at adaptation, stemming from their earliest role in human society.

So, as interstellar human society develops and stratifies, the Talocans carve out a niche for themselves, one that most true humans of the time would be loath to accept. And one which embarks them on a road to becoming the most powerful nation New Eden has seen.

Given that the Talocans had become untouchable, they filled those roles that true humans abhored, and built a stable economic base from them. Even under the duress of untouchability, they thrived, gathering the skills and functions that would suit them best four thousand years later.

Four other roles emerged from this stratification, likely becoming MegaCorporations in their own right. Ancient philosophies from Earth guided this stratification and gave rise to the derogatory term the Talocan used to identify true humans, Yan Jungs. It consisted of Thinkers, Traders, Makers and Growers. At the bottom of this system lay the Talocan, the Outcast.

The Thinkers quickly became dominated by the various sects of The Unified Catholic Church, owing to it's dominance of education following the abandonment of Talocan servants as educators. This leads to a renewal of it's old power base.

The Traders, mostly composed of families who attained great individual wealth during colonization and the few interstellar skirmishes that became neccesary to maintain the coherence of the Terran Empire, became second only to the Thinkers in power and status.

The Makers held power nearly commensurate with the Traders, by virtue of their relationship with the Thinkers, their technical skills and indespensibility in an interstellar society. The Growers held little practical power, but, they maintained a sure place in human society.

For millenia this civilization grows and evolves, finally, approximately four thousand years later, arriving at the same bottleneck that spurred mankind on to great discoveries in the past.

In 7987 AD, amidst the threats of overpopulation, resource depletion and galactic war, the wormhole leading to New Eden is dicovered. And the Talocan, as the most expendable human resource, are set, once again, to the dangerous task of exploration, and building an infrastructure which humanity can use to exploit the regions of New Eden.

I should also note, at this point, that Tau Ceti translates to The Beginning of Communication with Extraterrestrial Intelligence, or Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind.. Technically a 3F encounter.. I think this an allusion to the monoliths, which may have been a guide to the location of the New Eden wormhole..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3 - 2012-10-03 13:31:54 UTC

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Black Mountain Research Inc.
#4 - 2012-10-03 22:58:20 UTC
An excellent start so far.
Iam most eager to read more of you adding flesh to the scraps and bones so far provided by CCP storyline-verse.
Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#5 - 2012-10-04 21:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Thank you, my goal is to remain as consistant within the given lore\storyline as much as possible. While remaining vague enough to allow CCP to make changes without making a liar out of me..Blink

I am pretty dead sure of some things and will attempt to prove them using as purely an ingame argument as I can muster.. And kudo's to CCP for keeping me stumped this long..

For example, the Talocan Extraction Silo. Something almost every station in New Eden has in similar form. A Recycling Center. The Talocan model is just mobile. And geared toward the design that their polyferrous technology requires. Which means it is based on Carbon and the many isotopes that can be derived from it.

They say that digging through someone's garbage can tell you more about someone than anything else. The police in most countries probably use the tactic to gather evidence. The Jove are arguably the best intelligence gatherers in the cluster. They've been digging through the garbage a long time. They recycle everything..Twisted

Carbon is the 15th most abundant element in the Earth's crust, and the fourth most abundant element in the universe by mass after hydrogen, helium, and oxygen. It is present in all known life forms, and in the human body carbon is the second most abundant element by mass (about 18.5%) after oxygen. This abundance, together with the unique diversity of organic compounds and their unusual polymer-forming ability at the temperatures commonly encountered on Earth, make this element the chemical basis of all known life.

This is why there is a limited availability of evidence for our history.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Enheduanni Foundation
#6 - 2012-10-05 11:52:56 UTC
That is a nice story but it doesn’t fit into the Eve world. One major problem is the Jovian’s are by far the most primitive races far behind the technology of everyone else at the time the Eve wormhole opened. The Jove in that time frame where minor players.
Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#7 - 2012-10-05 11:57:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
I don't get your point.. How doesn't it fit? They WERE behind everyone else.. Are you arguing against that premise? What makes you suppose they were more advanced?

And the Yan Jung were everyone else, well, sort of. In my hypothesis only two races came into New Eden, humans and synthetic humans. Very hard to distinguish between the two before the Jove embarked on their centuries of eugenics programs..

Yan Jung technology excedes Talocan technology..

Everyone expects me to present a detailed argument for my hypothesis, which at this point is still evolving. Why should I accept your argument against, when you present absolutely NO evidence to support your disagreement, beyond it doesn't seem to fit your own hypothesis? Or your own take on where the disparity lies?

Really, Pottsey, I expect more from you.. As your own investigations have been instrumental in devising this, my hypothesis.. I would have been in no way where I am if not for the input of others, even the nay sayers who love to dump on me while ignoring their own precious scientific method and logical deduction.

Throughout, I have chosen to INCLUDE others in my investigation. I don't keep big secrets in the hopes that I become the mighty capsuleer who figures it all out. This is not an ego stroke for me. This is simply an enquiring mind in search of answers..

Do you disagree with my summation of the Ruins of Enclave Cohort 27? Osobnyk? Talocan Extraction Silo? If you have some of those answers, do tell.. There are structures in Anoikis which are no more than a few hundred years old, about the time the Jove up and left, for the last time. If they retook their old empire from the Enheduanni, where did the Enheduanni go? The Jovians were gathering genetic samples of charismatics? Why? Did they need leadership abilities to stage a revolt? Abilities that had been bred out of them..

This is simply more of the elitest BS that drove me away from AJ.. Start your own thread with an opposing hypothesis, we shall eventually see who was right.. Where they were right, and where they messed up. I have already expressed it is not PERFECT..

The hints I have seen come out of Templar One suggests they were inferior to the Yan Jungs.. At least in the Yan Jungs minds.. And I really haven't even presented my argument in detail yet.. It actually fits quite nicely, on many levels. Ye of little faith..

Oh, and no hate in any of the above, I am actually LMFAO...Blink As the hate seems to flow freely in my direction when I get close to real answers and bits of the truth.. In short, I see nothing more in your post than TROLL.... Which saddens me more than anything else..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Enheduanni Foundation
#8 - 2012-10-05 13:16:01 UTC
Perhaps I didn’t explain myself very well. I got the impression you described the Talocan as advanced to the point of surpassing there creators the Terreans. You talked about the Talocan creating star gates the back bone of the terran empire. You went on to say the Talocan set out for exploration, and building an infrastructure which humanity can use to exploit the regions of New Eden. That’s all fine the problem is when you said Talocan started calling themselves Jovians which is the bit that does not fit. The Joveians at that timeframe are a primitive group using outdated technology and few ships and do not fit the image you paint of the Talocan. The Jovians did not build infrastructure around the wormhole, they left that to the big races.

In the timeframe of the wormhole being opening the Jovians are in no state to build star gates and had to use sleeper pods to move between systems as unlike everyone else they barely had Faster than light travel.
Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#9 - 2012-10-05 13:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Sorry to come off so defensively, the Jovians likely began calling themselves Jovians because they evolved into humans on Soekheviti, which I place at Jupiter, where we have the hint of the Europa Yards. It was not because they thought of themselves as gods, but, because they didn't like the tags that humans had given them.

The Talocans, I think, were dropped by Yan Jung colony ships. Talocan Static Gates are represented in Sleeper technology, too.. Strange Energy Readings.. A simple evolution of their technology.. They have recievers, too.. And perhaps it was a technology that remained unique to their ships.. One noone else could use, or even knew about.. We also have hints the Talocan could use cloaking tech, early on.. After the collapse of the Eve Gate, the Talocans scrounged their Jovian technologies from the Yan Jung, just like the Rogue Drones at the Talocan Cosmos are less sophisticated than those at the Yan Jung sites, they are evolving.

The Talocan always had a strong grasp on mathmatics, due to the nature of their origin. They are hinted to have a unique gate technology, on that point I would have to disagree with you.

Talocan Static Gate;
This standing structure shares many similar aspects with modern acceleration gates. Whispers among Talocan lore-keepers tell of the Talocan’s firm grasp of astronautical engineering, and this gate may offer some insight into this ancient race’s knowledge.

Strange Energy Readings;
The radiation levels of this site are high but within tolerable limits. Wavelength readouts suggest a large cache of a powerful isotope was once housed here, but no solid traces remain. The level of radiant antimatter can only be explained by an immense--and recent--matter displacement.

Look at the structures in the Arek'Jaalan Library, they display the same general appearance.. Why do the Sleeper structures move about? And how?

But, building anything takes lots of mundane, mindless labor, I am a carpenter, it is one area I do know well.. And their Elders became the Architects.. Civil Engineers was a better term from my perspective.. Are the road crews and garbage men the most advanced members of our society? No, but they are specialized.. Can I take a bunch of doctors and nurses, throw them into a field and expect them to build a very good road?

If your race was dying out, and you didn't want to go to your biotech home, where your parents are sure to smack you around, where wouuld you go? At least until you could figure out how to dislodge your parents and make the home your own..? Especially considering you could piggyback on technology as an infomorph.. Think on Dagon and the Sisters Arc. Think on the Rogue Drones attacking the Broker.. Think on Jamyl Sarum..

And my heartfelt gratitude to you for clarifying.. I apologize again for my prior angst..Oops

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Enheduanni Foundation
#10 - 2012-10-05 14:04:46 UTC
I just went back to re-read the early info on the Jove and I might have underestimated just how backwater the Jove used to be.

The Jove are described as the most technological inferior and destitute race of the time (when the Eve wormhole was open). The Jove only had 7 ships that went through the wormhole and those ships could barely hit 0.0025 AU’s a second, barely faster than the speed of light. This is in a timeframe when the galaxy had been colonised and everyone else was more advanced than our Eve ships of today. The Jove mission was based around cryogenically stored people for their 1 single colony in new Eden. Unlike the other races they choose a system far away from the wormhole and everyone else.
Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#11 - 2012-10-05 14:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Man, I'd love some links to that old stuff, I've never read any of it.. Nor even heard of it, until Borascus related some of it to me recently..

One thing I would clarify, though, is there is a massive retcon going on, so I must accept Talocan Technology over old forum posts..

There are untouchables as example in every society, including France (Gallente).. The trick, for me, has been distinguishing between literal and metaphorical iterations in the Eve lore, BOTH of which are abundantly displayed..
Dalits were known to have been prevented from engaging in any work other than handling corpses, removing human waste (see “manual scavenging”), dragging away and skinning animal carcasses, tanning leather, making and fixing shoes, washing clothes and execution of criminals.

Why did the Jovians dislike the (true) Gallente and True Amarr? Why the higher regard for the Caldari and Minmatar? Why does the Deteis symbol look like the universal symbol for recycling? On a planet that was terraformed.. We're all human, we just have differing geneologies..

They (Cagots) spoke whatever dialect was spoken in the region and their family names were not peculiar to the cagots... The only real difference was that, after eight centuries of persecution, they tended to be more skillful and resourceful than the surrounding populations, and more likely to emigrate to America.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

Enheduanni Foundation
#12 - 2012-10-05 15:43:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pottsey
The Jove info I posted was from 2012 Templar One Novel which I should really have referenced in my first post. Is the old intro still classed as ok or has that been retconed? The first intro gives a bit of info on life and Earth before the wormhole opened.

"Why did the Jovians dislike the (true) Gallente and True Amarr? "
Back in 2004 (*) was there was as server wide Jove event. Gallente and Amarr players did poor while Caldari players won. That is why the Caldari have better Jove standings.

*I think, might be off a year
Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#13 - 2012-10-05 15:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Ahh, haven't read it.. But, I would ask, is it information related to someone by a Jovian.? Or third person narrative giving background? I doubt they would be completely candid or honest with a true human. They have a history of being deceitful.. At best of padding the information to maintain an advantage.

I was more relating to the preferential treatment expressed in the lore.. At the start of the Gallente-Caldari struggles, the Jovians cut off relations with the Gallente and bestowed pod tech to the Caldari..

Even when they knew they were being manipulated by the Enheduanni, they intervened to help save the Minmatar Elders..

Many have said Templar One is inconsitant with lore, most everything I have found seems to corroborate lore. If it is truly inconsistant, the question begs... Why?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

#14 - 2012-10-05 16:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
I think some of the most important elements are hard to obtain in the same attention span, you really need to keep an eye on each topic to get the full picture.

I'm no mastermind, nor do I fully understand the masterpiece that is EVE's backstory.

However, Roga does write a very interesting read, even if its classed as conjecture.

A point that re-inforces his reference to retcon's and developments is the subtle evolution of how much each race knew about some of the Chronicles, all in-game NPC's are devoid of the knowledge we get to read in the intergalactic news on the billboards, as they mainly dwell in one place, with their own niche of business occupying their time, unless it comes down the wire or is in the public domain they are able to catch hold of.

For an example; in the Regions List there is a reference to all the regions and some of their descriptions. One is Period Basis.

It adds a layer to the history by pointing to a dispute about the measurement of Time, finalised aboard a Jovian cruiser named Yoiul .

During this dispute; the Arithmetics, the 25ers and the Traditionalists try to establish the predict for the calendar.

Here is the quote from the Traditionalists that points to an accurate Jovian nation:

All the races, especially the Jove and the Amarr, had some data on the old calendar and by combining the data it could be remade more or less in its original form.

From the above the survivor's; the Jovians, also retained a sizable chunk of historical account, to fill in the blanks. - As it is presented. There is no archaeology mentioned, the plot device maintains that the Jovians were good book keepers and that the reasons for the standard Terran clock we use is part of their consideration.

They could easily have argued that historical account was inferior to their enlightened and augmented selves, but they allowed the calendar to maintain its form, even offering to help keep it uniform.
The Jovian timeline is the least well known, even though just over 1 hundred years ago, they helped impose the benchmark for the YC calendar. Also offering their records to accurately maintain the historical account that kept consistency, despite their shrouded days.

There are regional inconsistencies in the fiction that serve as State accounts, In the armed forces there is a 'type' in the Logistics Corps known as Pioneers, they make outposts in new areas, setting up infrastructure. I think the relationship to the Jove in the Talocans can be as simple as the story of the Bloodlines, some were in the small colonies and developed into members of the current 4 Empires. Even if the Jovians and Talocan are the same lineage, the historical record wouldn't reflect more information than it currently does.

The Jovians have bluffed and deceived New Eden before, and their inferiority at the dawn of New Eden is less important when you consider 'intellectual property rights and copyrights' element of technological development, renting equipment must have transpired in some aspect, or trading between each other. Otherwise they would have been stoways in the New Eden migration.

But, at the very opening of the EVE Gate, the timeline has little information from the Jovian perspective. 6 years after the Jovians meet the Gallente (according to the timeline) they close the door, and go meet everyone else during the Gallente-Caldari War.

In some of the old stuff technology levels plummeted, from a great height.

The backwards Jove were probably a lot less technologically advanced than everyone else, but everyone else fell on their face soon after.

If we all fell back to watching TV instead of playing computer games; on the internet, you could say the community had fallen over. It might also be the common limit of experience.

"Huh? Internet? No habla, mi no etiende, je ne comprends pas, I don't get it..... T.V.? sure....."
Enheduanni Foundation
#15 - 2012-10-05 16:28:25 UTC
Spoilers alert

The book pretty much said the Jove are dead and at one point Concord flat out said the Jove are dead in an internal private concord meeting (North Jove, not sleeper Jove). It was an AI of a Jove that transferred the info. Some of the info came from the Jove AI talking and some came from the Jove memory's that got transferred to the scientist. Although one could argue those memories might be false, I did not get the impression of false memories.

On the whole Templar one is consitant with the lore but I did notice a few spots which made me go WTF! I am sure one bit said people colonised and lived in New Eden 1000's of years before the Wormhole opened!
Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#16 - 2012-10-05 16:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
People or humans? There are the monoliths to consider.. If the Talocan were following a roadmap, as I suggest, who is to say the mapmakers were human?

As you say, cryogenics is a staple of early sci fi and space travel.. And a key point in my hypothesis. The Jove that originally came back to the homeworlds came back to a different society than they embarked from.. At some point, the humans thought the Talocan were a bad idea.. Some Talocan might not have come back at all.. That makes sense from a few points of view. Why go back if you find a brave new world? But, then again, if the Jove and Talocan are distinct branches off the same tree, why is the tech of the same quality between Anoikis and New Eden?

Cloning is something else I avoided, but, given our own advances in genetics, it is quite likely it existed..

Cryogenic suspension would certainly have played a part in the initial attempts to break out of the Earth Solar System, or the beings that embarked would have had to raise and teach their children the skills to build gates. Cryogenics is a much more logical option. They could have been sterile clones to begin with in that case...

Macrocosmic and microcosmic ideas floated in my head at one time, too. If you can shrink humanity, they take up less space, use less resources, and might be able to fit through pinhole sized wormholes. Crazy big shuttles.. Good ole sci fi..

And, finally, there is the subtle allusions to time travel and the current theories of using particle accelerators to create wormholes through time. Another reason I tried to avoid quantifying the Eve Gate. There is also the chronicle Old Man Star, and it's connection with Canopus and the Shou Star.. Though I don't place much stock in that, as it is a main sequence star.. And the lore seems to revolve around stars that are too old, a hint toward stellar manipulation.. If your dragging material out of a star, it's going to appear far older than it should..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

#17 - 2012-10-05 17:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
The main controversy being; Jovians are dead.

I'll just point at Dust 514's web page from here tho, the faction page:

I doubt that kind of factor would hit release and then be classed as wrong, CCP would want to protect the continuity in that respect.

Its the difference between Freemasons being large clubs, in the UK at least, with their own lodges and numbers like Lodge 1 in Hertfordshire or Lodge 147 in Warrington, and being the: omnipotent majestic 12..... thousand.... they are accredited with being for imaginative purposes.

Then again many guerilla forces go underground, or fight a faceless front, oftentimes in todays age people will state that no such thing exists and find out it does.

There is a chronicle called Taught Thoughts, in it Mr. Cromwell (a teacher) has age old traditional teachings... to educate the curriculum with.

The curriculum has changed, but the teacher emphasises historical records he knows to be true, but a student decides that he's had enough of the pedantic teacher and offers him to Mentas Blaque's anti-dissident movement.

The scene is set around Caldari History and the Rebellion of Cathura, during the Gallente-Caldari War, in a Gallente Class room.

The final paragraph and closing sentence is:

I didn't think about it for another second. I walked away, skipped the rest of my classes and headed off-campus, towards downtown. I spoke to authorities in one of the new institutions Mentas Blaque had set up, where I told them the easily verifiable fact that my teacher had gone against curriculum that might be politically sensitive, and the unverifiable lie that when asked who the good guys were, he had answered 'Caldari' without missing a beat.

M. Cromwell did not come to class the next morning.

This categorically displays strategic information and the volatility of it.
Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#18 - 2012-10-05 17:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Ya, have to disagree emphatically about the Jove being dead, that's a nice little fairytale. As a material race rolling about the cluster, probably, but there are Jovians in the Construct. The pertinant question being, who is in charge..?

From Anoikis, in more ways than one..

What do you intend, ambassador? I propose we call for a private summit of national leaders, to discuss an exchange of information and come to an agreement about the best use for select recovered parts. We could use the Inner Assembly to arrange for the meetings quite easily under the guise of an understandable concern for these events, which have touched our worlds too, as we will inform them.

You must understand two things. The first is human sensitivity. Seyllin is dominating the media, and as such, it is dominating the public consciousness. This works to our advantage, but only for so long. The world’s attention is turned toward the disaster, so now is the most opportune moment to make bold moves elsewhere. None of them want to be the first to speak about the potential profits, the new resources, the opportunities and secrets that can be uncovered. At this moment, those avenues will be forced into the background, and yet undoubtedly pursued all the same. If the empires are already operating on a covert footing, then we need not lead them there.

Who has seats in the Inner Assembly of Concord? Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar, Jove..
And this..
Our research?

Had she not realized yet? In the early months, we can make a great deal of ground.

Early months?

She had not. The ambassador swallowed. Emotion was rippling inside each cell, bursting throughout the bloodstream as it tried to break free.

The capsuleers. They will settle. They will understand the network eventually, and they will command it.

They will not be everywhere at once, and we can move undetected.

A conversation between two Jovians... One of which is an emotional ambassador.. To whom? And why does it appear he is on covert footing with his peer? Keeping things from her.. It also implies quite a bit about how life in the construct has restored the Jovians in many respects.. Then again, if no Jovians exist outside the Construct, why the need to move undetected? And where are their mother ships?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

#19 - 2012-10-05 18:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
I guess the main argument's for why there are antagonists representing the Jovian way of life and illustrating a female protagonist and a superior need go no further than to observe that the female character needs to be reminded of human sensitivity.

Although, I may be relying on the fact that logic is often emotionless, and arrogant leaders often fix a context in a way that only allows two variables before allowing a conclusion to form.

It is clear that both characters are written in quotation marks at the end though.

The motherships with room for billions of Jovians would surely not have run into yet more trouble, like a renegade Titan, and been forced into subjugation.
Roga Dracor
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#20 - 2012-10-05 18:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
A logical, emotionless female? ShockedLol

Wow, I overlooked that.. Telepathy? Or an unspoken body language, like the Bene Gesserit display in Dune? That changes things.. This may not even take place in a virtuality.. Damn, more digging.. It could of course refer to the Jovians moving against the Sleepers, which I believe they have..

The Ruins of Enclave Cohort 27 suggests that either some Jovians fought to get into the Construct, or to get out of it.. So, was it an insurgency or an escape? I guessed insurgency, seems kinda hard to destroy the structure from a virtual body.. Unless Virtual Kinetic Research has bearing..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.

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