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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4201 - 2012-10-04 12:25:50 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


?

I wasn't complaining, I'm simply saying that fitting requirements today are much more likely to be a contributing factor to relative HAM boat rareness as opposed to current HML/HAM differences. The original post I quoted suggested it was the weapon power differences when in reality it's probably a lot more to do with fitting for most.



That I will go with.

Doesn't require T2 weapons to compete with near max skilled ships in its class. Is it optimal, of course not, but it DOES work.

Once you skill into it, its another beast, and if the people complaining that they need local points can't find tacklers, that isn't the issue. The fact that a long range fit with next to no damage bonus competes with EVERY other ship in its class, favorably, should be telling.

HAMS are getting buffed, and the fittings eased.

Sounds pretty good to me.



Aye, I like it. Though I like the fury cruise changes more Twisted


I honestly think a huge part of the HML dominance over HAM is the natural progression of a newbie/missioner for caldari.

Up until (relatively) recently it was a case of "lolbrids, go missile", so you went kestrel(LMS)>caracal(HML)>Drake>etc

Obviously a HAM caracal was a nonsense so it wasn't skilled into and since HML did ok in missions to allow progress onwards the system was largely ignored. The odds of people training up a heap of skills which they just dont need to make an effective mission boat really are quite slim and then, later if they transition to the PvP sphere, a quick cost/benefit/pragmatic analysis bungs them into a drake with HML.

Obviously an element of HML power is at play here, but really I think unless they were chronically underpowered you'd still see most caldari evolving into them.

I like the changes now (didnt like wave #1), I was busy cross training before I stopped for a couple of years and am back and continuing to cross train, I'm terrible for wanting to be able to play around in whatever I fancy at the time [:D]
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4202 - 2012-10-04 12:30:31 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
[

I like the changes now (didnt like wave #1), I was busy cross training before I stopped for a couple of years and am back and continuing to cross train, I'm terrible for wanting to be able to play around in whatever I fancy at the time [:D]


I'm still kind of peeved that they pulled the TC/TE changes.

I was looking foreward to revamping my Phoons out of smartbombing and really big neut BC.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4203 - 2012-10-04 12:52:50 UTC
As much as it would've been hilarious for missioning, I still think it added too much pressure onto non drake/tengu missile using hulls to wrap it up in the one module.

Two mods (rather than a universal TD) would've been ok though.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4204 - 2012-10-04 13:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Sigras wrote:
nobody flies HAMs now because HMLs are totally overpowered and better than they are in every way, but if you take HMLs out of the equation and look at the weapon system objectively, HAMs are actually quite well balanced.


Actually I'd be inclined to suggest that (today) it is more to do with the really, really harsh fitting requirements for HAMS compared to HML. You need stupidlyreally high skills to realistically fit HAMS (assuming no stupid money poured into meta items)


Let me introduce you to Sacrilege.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sacrilege

If you fit HMLs you will laughed at and you lose 2nd damage bonus.

Morrigan LeSante wrote:
As much as it would've been hilarious for missioning, I still think it added too much pressure onto non drake/tengu missile using hulls to wrap it up in the one module.

Two mods (rather than a universal TD) would've been ok though.


How TD/TC/TE change would have changed other hulls?

We don't even know how new cruisers will perform on TQ and people are already saying this would be bad.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4205 - 2012-10-04 13:57:13 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Morrigan LeSante wrote:
As much as it would've been hilarious for missioning, I still think it added too much pressure onto non drake/tengu missile using hulls to wrap it up in the one module.

Two mods (rather than a universal TD) would've been ok though.


How TD/TC/TE change would have changed other hulls?

We don't even know how new cruisers will perform on TQ and people are already saying this would be bad.


I've been over this already in this thread...

Here's the brief version:

Single mod = ubquitous use in PvP = Essential to fit compensating mod = sacrifices on all missile hulls (of which two are a concern).

Weakens already underused hulls in PvP. Yes, yes already affects turret ships but since they're holding their own and (drake/tengu aside) other missile hulls aren't really I'm not certain its a valid comparison.


Two mods though, I'd be happy with. Scroll back for more detail/debate :)
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4206 - 2012-10-04 14:27:27 UTC
Hellz Hitman wrote:
The T2 missile changes are unbelieveably bad. Not one of them really balances the system. So quit fail trolling. And If we caught it I don't doubt we could have killed it. Issue remains that the dps that it was able to output with a short range weapon system was larger then the dps we could output with missiles. Not whether we killed it or not.

I can also bring in examples of Nados, Talos, Pests, even brutix's insta popping frigates from extreme ranges. Ranges outside their optimal but at least unlike missiles they still had a chance to hit,.

And as for the transversal question, yes that was quite the point there. Glad you wrapped your head around it.


The talos does NOT outdps a drake at that range, you're just wrong.

Also like i said, large weapons, not medium, large. The difference is Massive. As for a brutix instapopping frigates at long ranges, i've been around for a while but i have never seen that...


Quit being bad.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4207 - 2012-10-04 14:29:40 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


The talos does NOT outdps a drake at that range, you're just wrong.




425mm rail Talos.....it would out DPS a drake, but it would matter since the drake would have near triple the tank.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4208 - 2012-10-04 14:54:23 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


The talos does NOT outdps a drake at that range, you're just wrong.




425mm rail Talos.....it would out DPS a drake, but it would matter since the drake would have near triple the tank.



He is talking about a blaster Talos.

Obviously a ship with 8 large rails would out dps hml's.

EDIT: although it may be that he is So bad that he thought a rail talos was a blaster talos.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#4209 - 2012-10-04 15:03:08 UTC
two hundred and eleven ******* pages....


oh em eff gee
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace
PiiiGGGss iiiNNN SSSpppAAAcccEEE
#4210 - 2012-10-04 15:34:03 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


The talos does NOT outdps a drake at that range, you're just wrong.




425mm rail Talos.....it would out DPS a drake, but it would matter since the drake would have near triple the tank.



He is talking about a blaster Talos.

Obviously a ship with 8 large rails would out dps hml's.

EDIT: although it may be that he is So bad that he thought a rail talos was a blaster talos.


Either way this is an apple to oranges comparison, and your spot on Tarrant
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4211 - 2012-10-04 16:05:52 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Hellz Hitman wrote:
The T2 missile changes are unbelieveably bad. Not one of them really balances the system. So quit fail trolling. And If we caught it I don't doubt we could have killed it. Issue remains that the dps that it was able to output with a short range weapon system was larger then the dps we could output with missiles. Not whether we killed it or not.

I can also bring in examples of Nados, Talos, Pests, even brutix's insta popping frigates from extreme ranges. Ranges outside their optimal but at least unlike missiles they still had a chance to hit,.

And as for the transversal question, yes that was quite the point there. Glad you wrapped your head around it.


The talos does NOT outdps a drake at that range, you're just wrong.

Also like i said, large weapons, not medium, large. The difference is Massive. As for a brutix instapopping frigates at long ranges, i've been around for a while but i have never seen that...


Quit being bad.


A 425mm rail Talos with 2 TEs, 2 Mag IIs, and collision and burst rigs pushes 892 dps @ 47km+49km w/ CNAM or 517 dps @ 168km +49km with spike. It's not going to "insta pop" buffered frigates at range, but it will shred them within seconds.

As for the rest, it's irrelevant that we are talking about a large turret. It's a BC weapon. It doesn't matter whether we call it a large rail or a 14" mega-pulse jizzie-jizzler, it fits on a BC and it is relevant to compare to the so-called overpowered HML and Drake. It comes down to this: whether we are talking about dps, dps at range, speed, tank, or whatever else you want to dredge up, there is absolutely nothing that the Drake can do that other BCs cannot also do comparably or better.

Drakes dominate null blobs because they are:

1. Cheap to build and fit (a blob doesn't need T2 weapons or shields, they are going for numbers and alpha)
2. Easy to skill into at the T1 level
3. Easy to command in a large scale battle
4. Effective long range fire platforms that can also apply predictable dps at short ranges and against smaller targets
5. The Drake comes with decent resists out of the box, and this helps logistics
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4212 - 2012-10-04 16:22:53 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Hellz Hitman wrote:
The T2 missile changes are unbelieveably bad. Not one of them really balances the system. So quit fail trolling. And If we caught it I don't doubt we could have killed it. Issue remains that the dps that it was able to output with a short range weapon system was larger then the dps we could output with missiles. Not whether we killed it or not.

I can also bring in examples of Nados, Talos, Pests, even brutix's insta popping frigates from extreme ranges. Ranges outside their optimal but at least unlike missiles they still had a chance to hit,.

And as for the transversal question, yes that was quite the point there. Glad you wrapped your head around it.


The talos does NOT outdps a drake at that range, you're just wrong.

Also like i said, large weapons, not medium, large. The difference is Massive. As for a brutix instapopping frigates at long ranges, i've been around for a while but i have never seen that...


Quit being bad.


A 425mm rail Talos with 2 TEs, 2 Mag IIs, and collision and burst rigs pushes 892 dps @ 47km+49km w/ CNAM or 517 dps @ 168km +49km with spike. It's not going to "insta pop" buffered frigates at range, but it will shred them within seconds.

As for the rest, it's irrelevant that we are talking about a large turret. It's a BC weapon. It doesn't matter whether we call it a large rail or a 14" mega-pulse jizzie-jizzler, it fits on a BC and it is relevant to compare to the so-called overpowered HML and Drake. It comes down to this: whether we are talking about dps, dps at range, speed, tank, or whatever else you want to dredge up, there is absolutely nothing that the Drake can do that other BCs cannot also do comparably or better.

Drakes dominate null blobs because they are:

1. Cheap to build and fit (a blob doesn't need T2 weapons or shields, they are going for numbers and alpha)
2. Easy to skill into at the T1 level
3. Easy to command in a large scale battle
4. Effective long range fire platforms that can also apply predictable dps at short ranges and against smaller targets
5. The Drake comes with decent resists out of the box, and this helps logistics



Its a BS weapon system,

It is ******* relevant. We are comparing weapon systems, not ships. You cannot compare Medium guns to large guns just because one medium ship can fit them. It doesn't work and if you can't see why, well you're bad.

And if you had bothered to read a bit further you would have seen me saying that obviously a ship with 8 large rails would out dps hml's. Again, large guns.. also eight of them.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4213 - 2012-10-04 16:44:53 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
A 425mm rail Talos with 2 TEs, 2 Mag IIs, and collision and burst rigs pushes 892 dps @ 47km+49km w/ CNAM or 517 dps @ 168km +49km with spike. It's not going to "insta pop" buffered frigates at range, but it will shred them within seconds.


And Nighmare does 1100+ dps at 50 km. It also has very good tracking for that range too.

Can we finally stop comparing cruiser sized weapon systems to battleship sized weapon systems?
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4214 - 2012-10-04 16:53:08 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
A 425mm rail Talos with 2 TEs, 2 Mag IIs, and collision and burst rigs pushes 892 dps @ 47km+49km w/ CNAM or 517 dps @ 168km +49km with spike. It's not going to "insta pop" buffered frigates at range, but it will shred them within seconds.


And Nighmare does 1100+ dps at 50 km. It also has very good tracking for that range too.

Can we finally stop comparing cruiser sized weapon systems to battleship sized weapon systems?


I would like to compare ... medium ACs on a Cane with Cruises on a Raven. /scnr
Mikaila Penshar
SISTAHs of EVE
#4215 - 2012-10-04 18:07:21 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Posting in a Fozzie thread. Love Fozzie long time. Cool

RIP Drake blob. Straight


You got a little poo on your lips there ... let me just wipe that.... off... got it.


I can't believe I voted for you
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace
PiiiGGGss iiiNNN SSSpppAAAcccEEE
#4216 - 2012-10-04 18:26:25 UTC
To Fozzie:

Is there any way we could get just a small adjustment to Torpedo range during this pass? I think a buff to flight time or velocity to make them around 15%-25% longer range is in order.

I would also suggest a nerf to Cruise range. Out of the box they seem a tad too long and may start having some of the same problems as Heavies did. -20ish percent drop should be good.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4217 - 2012-10-04 18:27:59 UTC
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:
To Fozzie:

Is there any way we could get just a small adjustment to Torpedo range during this pass? I think a buff to flight time or velocity to make them around 15%-25% longer range is in order.

I would also suggest a nerf to Cruise range. Out of the box they seem a tad too long and may start having some of the same problems as Heavies did. -20ish percent drop should be good.


wth? Cruises have no needs for a nerf at all ... they are completely broken, what are you smoking? :)
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#4218 - 2012-10-04 18:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Noemi Nagano wrote:
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:
To Fozzie:

Is there any way we could get just a small adjustment to Torpedo range during this pass? I think a buff to flight time or velocity to make them around 15%-25% longer range is in order.

I would also suggest a nerf to Cruise range. Out of the box they seem a tad too long and may start having some of the same problems as Heavies did. -20ish percent drop should be good.


wth? Cruises have no needs for a nerf at all ... they are completely broken, what are you smoking? :)


they need to nerf HAM range so torps wont look so bad next to them.
then nerf torp range a little also cruises range aren't much of an issue as rails can do 150km or so cruises need to have higher velocity in exchange for some flight time like heavies got.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4219 - 2012-10-04 18:33:46 UTC
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:
To Fozzie:

Is there any way we could get just a small adjustment to Torpedo range during this pass? I think a buff to flight time or velocity to make them around 15%-25% longer range is in order.

I would also suggest a nerf to Cruise range. Out of the box they seem a tad too long and may start having some of the same problems as Heavies did. -20ish percent drop should be good.


You do realize that Short ranged weapons means short ranged right? I would say Pulses need there range reduce a little but other then that all other ships are similar with there based ranged ammo.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4220 - 2012-10-04 18:47:38 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


The talos does NOT outdps a drake at that range, you're just wrong.




425mm rail Talos.....it would out DPS a drake, but it would matter since the drake would have near triple the tank.



He is talking about a blaster Talos.

Obviously a ship with 8 large rails would out dps hml's.

EDIT: although it may be that he is So bad that he thought a rail talos was a blaster talos.



At 70km with void....magic 8-balls says..................