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An idea against afk cloaking
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Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-09-23 22:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Quote:
If you're not active you should at least make the pilot become uncloaked for 5-10 minutes for every hour that they use cloak. Something to insure that a pilot is actually using the account and not wasting others time that would otherwise be used in a much more constructive manner.


This is a horrible idea. 5-10 minutes as a time? Have you never tried to survive a wormhole collapse? 5-10 minutes of manditory decloak is a death sentence.. you are clearly off your rocker.

Even if you are just suggesting a penalty for continus use whats to stop anyone from creating a bot to decloak for a few seconds then reclock before the hour is up. This would be nothing but a nerf to cause trouble for non-afk cloaking while the afk would continue as always.

Removing cloaked from local to end afk presence is the best solution.


Quote:
Without a doubt afk cloakers can be the worse type of player in the game. And yes, many people are consantly trown off by a 24/7 cloaker that does nothing more than stay cloaked within your system for 3 weeks.


By the way, I disagree with this too. The worst would be gold spammers. You are also incorrect about your assertion that anyone stays cloaked for three weeks afk 24/7. Doesn't happen! Down Time every 23 hours requires a warm body to be in game at least long enough to warp to a location and recloak. The trouble with your comment is what I've always point to: it's not the afk thing that anybody is complaining about and wants the nerf for - it's cloaking in general and I vehemently disagree to this.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#42 - 2011-09-24 02:43:18 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Removing cloaked from local to end afk presence is the best solution.
All ships have the capability to fit a cloaking module, Prototype Cloaking Device I or similar cloak mods. I say fine, remove cloaked from local; everyone will fit a cloak mod with nothing in local to give intel. Next we will have Romulan Warbirds.

Though a bit delayed, map settings provides intel on those pve ships ratting... you know, the one that shows faction ships destroyed. But you knew that already. So let's pretend your afk local presence is removed while cloaked. To remain balanced, another feature should be changed to allow your potential target (that pve ratting battleship) the choice to cloak while in Cosmic Anomaly. You can still pick off targets that choose not to cloak, but that module can even the playing field. Not to make it too easy, you have to loot it off officer that spawns in anom.
SpaceSquirrels
#43 - 2011-09-24 02:57:23 UTC
get rid of local... You'll never know if they're afk and cloaked then.
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2011-09-24 03:08:05 UTC
well no just make it so every hour you will decloak, incurring the standard recloak timer, if you are actually AFK, you wont recloak, and will get scanned and blown apart, if you are just cloaking then its fine, if you are just sitting in a system cloaked on keyboard, thats game mechanics, so i count it as fair game.

I mean the topic is AFK cloakers, not normal cloaking issues
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#45 - 2011-09-24 03:18:28 UTC
Solinuas wrote:
I mean the topic is AFK cloakers, not normal cloaking issues
Hmm, I miss something? I thought I covered that. If you were cloaked you turn the tables on the AFK cloakers, no? Instead of removing their cloak, make everybody cloaked.
Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#46 - 2011-09-24 10:23:48 UTC
Solinuas wrote:
well no just make it so every hour you will decloak, incurring the standard recloak timer, if you are actually AFK, you wont recloak, and will get scanned and blown apart, if you are just cloaking then its fine, if you are just sitting in a system cloaked on keyboard, thats game mechanics, so i count it as fair game.

If I am decloaking every 60 minutes, I write myself a script that cloakes me every 60 minutes and 30 seconds. The timing has to be very irregular otherwise it won't work.
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#47 - 2011-10-11 02:49:06 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
Solinuas wrote:
well no just make it so every hour you will decloak, incurring the standard recloak timer, if you are actually AFK, you wont recloak, and will get scanned and blown apart, if you are just cloaking then its fine, if you are just sitting in a system cloaked on keyboard, thats game mechanics, so i count it as fair game.

If I am decloaking every 60 minutes, I write myself a script that cloakes me every 60 minutes and 30 seconds. The timing has to be very irregular otherwise it won't work.
Then perhaps 5 minutes + 3 minutes per level of cloaking. After this period of time expires, your cloak has a non-cumulative 10% chance every 30 seconds of deactivating (with the normal 30 seconds reactivation timer). This forces cloakies to undergo a brief window where they can be D-Scanned every so often.

It will also protect against naive AFK cloaking, though not against AFK cloaking bots. Obvious workaround is warp - uncloak - recloak - end warp - warp somewhere new.

Another option is to give cloaked objects within (say) 1 mil km a 25% chance to show up on D-Scan as "cloaked object" (no range, no further info). Perhaps limit it to objects not on grid. A dedicated group of ships could eventually triangulate and decloak the cloaky. But can see multiple drawbacks to this idea when trying to provide a warp-in.

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?
ninjaholic
Tactical Feed.
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2011-10-11 03:05:27 UTC
Nothing wrong with AFK cloakers. They only take the easy kills. I got a better, simpler solution.

Don't be an easy kill.

Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2011-10-11 03:54:27 UTC
ninjaholic wrote:
Nothing wrong with AFK cloakers. They only take the easy kills. I got a better, simpler solution.

Don't be an easy kill.



i agree, lets not forget that most cov-ops ships have to sacrifice a high-slot for their cloak anyways, and on the frigs they become next to nothing in threat level against cruisers or bigger, hell, i watched a cloaker get wtfpwned by a hulk in null that was tanked with T2 drones...

basically the majority of epople that cry about AFK cloakers are just little kiddies that want to go afk while they mine in null-sec without any reds in system, and are too naive to fit a combat tank on their miner ships, or better yet, travel in groups so you have 3 or 4 hulks with T2 drones in the same belt.

i eman, you guys are in a BIG scary null-sec alliance, or even in wormholes, your really telling me there is NO ONE else in your corp who will come mine with you? i can tell you from trying, even 1 tanked retriever with T2 drones can be a threat to a cov-ops pilot whos active, so an AFK CLOAKER should be the elast of your concerns.

IMO it's more likley that that trusty cyno alt in your corp is actually the alt for the other team and will drop a cyno for his fleetmates from your red corp to drop a super on your belt for lols, and as we all know, thats not very common if your corp has security worth the sapce they blob to take.
Snabbik Shigen
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2011-10-11 03:56:23 UTC
Leverage the existing "heat damage" that is already in game. As the cloaking device runs, it gradually builds up heat damage that has to be repaired periodically (i.e. Nanite Paste).

proto cloaks = 20-40 minutes before they burn out
improved T2 cloaks = 30-60 minutes before they burn out
covop cloaks = 45-90 minutes before they burn out

Use a skill or two that controls how fast it burns out (+5% longer duration per level, another for -5% heat damage per level).

Add high modules or rigs that can be fitted into slots that can absorb the heat damage to allow the cloak to run for up to 50% longer before it burns out. Now you have a choice of using your rigs for damage / tank or to increase your reliable cloaking time.

Now your cloaky folks can't stay cloaked for more then a few hours, at which point they're going to have to decloak in order to fix their cloaking device using Nanite Paste.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2011-10-11 04:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nariya Kentaya
Snabbik Shigen wrote:
Leverage the existing "heat damage" that is already in game. As the cloaking device runs, it gradually builds up heat damage that has to be repaired periodically (i.e. Nanite Paste).

proto cloaks = 20-40 minutes before they burn out
improved T2 cloaks = 30-60 minutes before they burn out
covop cloaks = 45-90 minutes before they burn out

Use a skill or two that controls how fast it burns out (+5% longer duration per level, another for -5% heat damage per level).

Add high modules or rigs that can be fitted into slots that can absorb the heat damage to allow the cloak to run for up to 50% longer before it burns out. Now you have a choice of using your rigs for damage / tank or to increase your reliable cloaking time.

Now your cloaky folks can't stay cloaked for more then a few hours, at which point they're going to have to decloak in order to fix their cloaking device using Nanite Paste.



so absically what you want is for cloaking ships to only be able to cloak effectively if they sacrifice alot of their tank just to squeeze another hour maybe before they HAVE to either turn off their cloak or GTFO, or let their cloak burn out and GTFO form your system? a cloaked ship has only 1 of 2 purposes
1) gathering intel, this takes hours upon hours of observation to see who does what when, because you have to make sure you cover multiple TZ groups (americans, euros, russkis, aussies)
2) ambushes, and really, if there is only 1 in system he probably wont do much ambushing, and if hes in anything other then a well-fitted SB, hes harmless, and a SB just needs you to have 1 or 2 guys at a couple of the celestials so he will eventually get caught (or be proven truly afk, therefore, no threat)

again this approach comes to you being scared fo a red being able to sit in your system in a ship that has difficulty doing much on its own anyways, honestly, MAYBE if its a stealth bomber it could be a threat, but its your alliance skipping on security that let them get in their in the first place.

why dotn you get your CEO or alliance leader to put a little more effort in their gatecamps/border patrols and see if that doesnt cut down on the "afk cloaker" problem a little".



and on a previous note, anybody here that keeps whining about a cloaker shutting down a system for 24/7 weeks on end needs to get a clue, if they are sitting in ONE SYSTEM, UNDOCKED, for more then 3 hours, and no one is screaming about getting jumped, then they more then likely afk and therefore cannot do anything.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#52 - 2011-10-11 06:58:45 UTC
Snabbik Shigen wrote:
Leverage the existing "heat damage" that is already in game. As the cloaking device runs, it gradually builds up heat damage that has to be repaired periodically (i.e. Nanite Paste).

proto cloaks = 20-40 minutes before they burn out
improved T2 cloaks = 30-60 minutes before they burn out
covop cloaks = 45-90 minutes before they burn out

Use a skill or two that controls how fast it burns out (+5% longer duration per level, another for -5% heat damage per level).

Add high modules or rigs that can be fitted into slots that can absorb the heat damage to allow the cloak to run for up to 50% longer before it burns out. Now you have a choice of using your rigs for damage / tank or to increase your reliable cloaking time.

Now your cloaky folks can't stay cloaked for more then a few hours, at which point they're going to have to decloak in order to fix their cloaking device using Nanite Paste.


yeah and that all... WHY?
Give a single reason, why people should not be allowed to idle in any part of the space as long as they like.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#53 - 2011-10-11 13:27:46 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
Some love em, some hate em with a passion, but cloakers in Eve serve a purpose: recon and surveillance. But they tend to turn into a hassle, namely 24/7 afk cloakers waiting on a 2nd account for a kill shot. I happen to love playing cloakers and hate those afk guys with a passion, which led me to think a bit about how the later ones could be dealt with without destroying the entire cloaking concept. Now that we have downtime anyways, I'd like to share these ideas. Blink

There are several concepts on how to deal with cloakers, reaching from fuel-based ideas, special anti-cloaker probes to anti-cloaker doomsdays, expressing the various degrees of hate against them. Now Eve happens to be a place where possibilities are eventually exploited if they are just lucrative enough, and some players tend to have an impressive amount of money and nothing to spent it on. The same fact invalidates all ideas that are purely based on the availability of a certain thing to counter cloakers (e.g. very expensive items, fuel, upkeep, bling bling, you name it).

On the other hand a cloaking device serves a purpose, that is being able to fly into dangerous space unharmed and stay there for a while. And whenever an alliance likes to spy on another alliance, this ability is extremely valuable. A solution therefore should not destroy this primary purpose of a cloaking device, otherwise it becomes completely pointless to even fit it. This rules out ideas that reliably negate cloaking devices like probes, anti-cloaking ships or the "Doomsday of Revelation" (tm).

And finally Eve is a place where risk means potential fortune, therefore an active player taking a risk should have a chance to be awarded for it, or die a horrible death in a nifty explosion. In other words: the big issue is not the cloaking device or a player flying around cloaked, but the guy that sits 24/7 afk in his ship on a second account till there is an absolute guaranteed kill available, therefore negating the risk while annoying the hell out of everyone in the system. A solution therefore should target the afk guys and not the active players.


Summarizing these ideas an anti-cloking mechanic needs to:
  • Must not destroy the primary purpose of cloaking.
  • Be limited in use in general and not based on a ressource.
  • Needs to work chance-based and never get close to 100%. Chance must be tied to the potential gain.
  • Needs to give an active player a chance to counter the effect, while be a guaranteed death for the afk guy.

My final idea is this infrastructure upgrade:
Luminescent Ionic upgade
(Strategic upgrade module)
Description: Activating this module will cause a spread of ionized particles to be send throughout the system which react with a noticeable glow if they come in contact with a ship's shield systems. This allows scanners and probes to be able to detect ships to a much higher degree and even allow to be able to detect cloaked ships.

Effect: When activated gives a 10% increase to combat scan probe strength per strategic level of the system used in and causes all ships to glow (causing an effect like if a shield booster is used), therefore making it possible to scan for cloaked ships. The effect lasts for 10 minutes and can be reactivated only after a cooldown based on the strategic level of the system (12h/6h/4h/2h/1h).

There is as well an upkeep cost associated with this upgrade and there will be no notification to ships if it is used. A cloaked ship under the effect of this upgrade will still be cloaked and cannot be targeted, but it will be visible and a bracket will be displayed around the ship if it is in visual range.


Let's take two scenarios:
1. An afk player is on his safe-spot flying downwards at 300 m/s waiting for someone to wander in his trap. If the module is active the player probably won't notice the faint glow on his shields and continue to be afk. In the meantime other players have launched their scan probes, find the ship, warp to it, search around for the cloaky bracket,approach it and shoot it down.

2. An active player sits in his ship and does whatever an active cloaker does. When the upgrade is activated, the player might notice the glow of his shields and knows that there are now people scanning for him, he is practically visible. He can counter this by warping around safe-spots in hope that the scanning ships are not fast enough to find his safe-spots and wait for him the next time he warps to them. If the player doesn't notice the glow, he can still see the sudden increase of combat scanner probes on the scanner and react accordingly. If the player doesn't look at that and doesn't notice the glow, his last chance is to notice that someone just warped to his safe spot (usually a few km behind if the cloaky is moving) and approaches his location. If the player tries to leave the system, he still has to get through a potential gate camp that will see him and will be able to uncloak and then kill him.

As this upgrade will only be available in inhabited systems and tied to the strategic level (thus how long it is inhabited), most parts of the universe will not tamper with cloakers, or in other words: only systems where recon is valuable will be dangerous. In addition a smart and active cloaker will know that there is such an upgrade and will be able to counter the effect, however it will be dangerous and some might explode when they warp on their safe-spot the second time and a fleet is already waiting for them. Once the effect wears off, the cloker has 50 minutes to do whatever he wants, till the hunt starts again.

I think this will solve the issue with afk cloakers and give sovereignty holders a reasonable but fair tool against cloaking ships as well as some other strategic benefits.


TL;DR

Stop trying to suggest the nerfing of legitimate things.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Mister Viceguy
Blue Phoenix Rises
#54 - 2011-10-17 11:24:33 UTC
I dont have proplems with anything, but if you looking for ideas heres one.

Just get us probes that can find clock ships. You can find you lovely afk clockers this way and active ones can still be effective if they stay on the move, they maybe know your in the area close by if they find you, but still cant find you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#55 - 2011-10-17 11:42:22 UTC
Mister Viceguy wrote:
I dont have proplems with anything, but if you looking for ideas heres one.

Just get us probes that can find clock ships. You can find you lovely afk clockers this way and active ones can still be effective if they stay on the move, they maybe know your in the area close by if they find you, but still cant find you.
Why?
Mister Viceguy
Blue Phoenix Rises
#56 - 2011-10-17 11:44:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mister Viceguy wrote:
I dont have proplems with anything, but if you looking for ideas heres one.

Just get us probes that can find clock ships. You can find you lovely afk clockers this way and active ones can still be effective if they stay on the move, they maybe know your in the area close by if they find you, but still cant find you.
Why?


Just trowing my idea out, thats all.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#57 - 2011-10-17 12:13:51 UTC
Mister Viceguy wrote:
I dont have proplems with anything, but if you looking for ideas heres one.

Just get us probes that can find clock ships. You can find you lovely afk clockers this way and active ones can still be effective if they stay on the move, they maybe know your in the area close by if they find you, but still cant find you.


I sure do want to find me some clock ships.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#58 - 2011-10-17 12:26:59 UTC
Mister Viceguy wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Mister Viceguy wrote:
I dont have proplems with anything, but if you looking for ideas heres one.

Just get us probes that can find clock ships. You can find you lovely afk clockers this way and active ones can still be effective if they stay on the move, they maybe know your in the area close by if they find you, but still cant find you.
Why?


Just trowing my idea out, thats all.


Next time aim for the garbage can.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2011-10-17 12:56:25 UTC
I think we should leave covops cloaks as they are but maybe change the other cloaks somewhat.
For example, reduce the penalties of fitting them but add some way of finding them. As people have pointed out so many times ships with covops cloaks are more or less pre-nerfed. But what annoys me is that any other ship can use a prototype cloak to hide. And this ahs nothing to do with local but rather an annoying incident with a guy hiding an orca in my WH system and me not being able to do anything about it unless I would sit with combat probes around the system 23/7.

Maybe add the suggested probes that can find cloaked ships, but not ships with cov ops cloaks, and make it really hard or impossible to find anything small so that less threatening ships can still hide, but BCs, BSs and capitals wont be able to simply warp to a safe and cloak.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#60 - 2011-10-17 13:22:01 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
I think we should leave covops cloaks as they are but maybe change the other cloaks somewhat.
For example, reduce the penalties of fitting them but add some way of finding them. As people have pointed out so many times ships with covops cloaks are more or less pre-nerfed. But what annoys me is that any other ship can use a prototype cloak to hide. And this ahs nothing to do with local but rather an annoying incident with a guy hiding an orca in my WH system and me not being able to do anything about it unless I would sit with combat probes around the system 23/7.

Maybe add the suggested probes that can find cloaked ships, but not ships with cov ops cloaks, and make it really hard or impossible to find anything small so that less threatening ships can still hide, but BCs, BSs and capitals wont be able to simply warp to a safe and cloak.


No. Period.

If you actually live in a wormhole and can think beyond your own attempts to catch that orca you'll understand why. Cloaking, and being able to remain hidden while cloaked, is vital to wormhole survival (ask that orca pilot). Even cloaking a BS while rolling a hole is important.

So, no. Bad ideas, game breaking ideas, need to be allowed to rot.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.