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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Ellente Fervens
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4101 - 2012-10-03 02:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellente Fervens
Eckyy wrote:

Wrong.

With long-range guns, you start off with close range ammo which is best able to hit small targets (relative to other ammo types) at close range - the longer range ammos generally suck for most uses and are not used. T2 ammo gives you a choice between more damage close range with tracking penalty (ie only works against larger targets) or the ability to do decent damage at long range.


Heavy missiles start off able to do decent damage at long range. That is to say, heavy missile T1 ammo = gun T2 long range ammo. T2 missiles offer the ability to do higher damage at close range to larger targets ( = gun T2 close range ammo), and the ability to hit smaller targets better at close range ( = gun T1 ammo).

The analogy isn't perfect but it's close enough.

Additionally, missiles can select their damage type at any of these ranges. Minmatar do not have an "EMP Hail" or a "Phased Plasma barrage/tremor" - they're locked into explosive/kinetic.


Pardon me I was working from the middle ammo on guns.
lead is the middle T1 ammo, normal range normal damage.
void/javlin = short range high damage compared to lead. (Higher damage than short range t1 ammo)
spike/null = similar or higher damage longer range. (Higher range than T1 ammo)
short range missiles also follow this trend
Javlin = less damage longer range (compared to T1)
rage = less range more damage (compared to T1)

Under the proposal
fury = less range (half), more damage on something you're hitting perfectly or better (with respect to signature radius and velocity)
precision = less range (half), more damage on something you're not hitting perfectly (with respect to signature radius and velocity)
Faction = same range, better damage on anything.

This would be fine if T2 offered double damage for half the range like it does in guns, but it isn't the case with the current numbers. Fury/precision are not going to be doubling your damage.

I am approaching this from a PvE perspective, I have no reason to use LR missile T2 ammo ever.

As for damage type selection that is a red herring, especially when so many Caldari boats have their damage multipliers locked to one damage type, a trend that we are seeing increased. (See Minmitar new destroyer).
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4102 - 2012-10-03 02:44:09 UTC
From what CCP have mentioned, the defender missiles use quite a bit of server power to use, and so I don't think they're ever going to be all that useful, even if fixed. Shooting a missile to intercept another missile isn't the best way to counter that weapon system anyway, especially in an era of plentiful laser power. Also, there was that tracking disruptor modification that was going to allow it to deal with missiles that got delayed - I think there might be a better way to do it.

How about a new midslot defensive module that's basically like the target painter, but automatically shoots incoming missiles. It's 100% accurate, and would have a range of like, 10-15km max (it's a point defence laser). It'd need two shots to kill a torpedo or cruise missile of course. The firing rate wouldn't be too high, so that it'd probably only shoot 1 or perhaps two missiles per incoming volley, but it'd have the benefits of;
a) actually being useful
b) taking up a defensive slot instead of an offensive slot
c) ease server load by not having to calculate missile to missile interception.
b) keeps tracking disruptors for turrets only, and adds an extra defensive module option for setups.

Something to consider.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Mirei Jun
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4103 - 2012-10-03 02:55:33 UTC
This one is straight at CCP Fozzie:

You are making hard decisions with an intent to improve Eve as a game, overall. This is commendable and desperately needed. However...

The changes to missiles are fine as long as it is possible to get some range back at the expense of other options. Without the tracking disruptor changes missiles are inferior to turrets in all scenarios -especially with the accuracy changes.

Please either add the the tracking enhancer/disruptor changes in this release or push back missile changes until you can add them together. I suggest just adding them now because if you don't do it now it may never happen.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4104 - 2012-10-03 03:08:36 UTC
dont go by the spreed sheet the whole thing is wrong or what fossie is saying on the forums is wrong one of the 2 example 215 dose not translate into 240 with a 72% increase its 365 so please fossie fix one of them so it actualy adds up.

while im on numbers ill run this past yah providing the old values are correct.

base flight of new heavy furys will be 22 k

as said above exp radius will be 365

so given a 365 explosive radius even with 25% reduction for skills makes an explosive radius of 273 thats over double what a criuser is and even larger than what a bc is.

but it gets worse the base dmg of new furys is assumeing the sheet is correct in the base dmg of furrys was 192 is 259 now lets look at something like the caracal without skills 5 launchers.

a totaly of 1.3k volley say now assumeing even the 273 explosive radius with skills only 388 of that after exp radius and 40% resists is factored in is actualy applied as dmg. and thats on a statoinary target. i rest my case on this the dmg from t1s is gonna either be lower than this albe it prolly not by much or much higher.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4105 - 2012-10-03 03:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
serras bang wrote:
dont go by the spreed sheet the whole thing is wrong or what fossie is saying on the forums is wrong one of the 2 example 215 dose not translate into 240 with a 72% increase its 365 so please fossie fix one of them so it actualy adds up.

It's 72% over revised T1, not 72% over current values. So far it looks like T1 HAM's will have 2/3rds the range of fury HM's while doing more damage and having much better application of damage to the tune of ~93m explosion radius vs ~180m for furys (at GMP 5).
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4106 - 2012-10-03 03:43:19 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
serras bang wrote:
dont go by the spreed sheet the whole thing is wrong or what fossie is saying on the forums is wrong one of the 2 example 215 dose not translate into 240 with a 72% increase its 365 so please fossie fix one of them so it actualy adds up.

It's 72% over revised T1, not 72% over current values. So far it looks like T1 HAM's will have 2/3rds the range of fury HM's while doing more damage and having much better application of damage to the tune of ~93m explosion radius vs ~180m for furys (at GMP 5).



ok if thats the case fossie can you confirm or denie this please so i can crunch the numbers more accurately ? is t2 furry values be bassed of the revised t1 values ?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4107 - 2012-10-03 03:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
serras bang wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
serras bang wrote:
dont go by the spreed sheet the whole thing is wrong or what fossie is saying on the forums is wrong one of the 2 example 215 dose not translate into 240 with a 72% increase its 365 so please fossie fix one of them so it actualy adds up.

It's 72% over revised T1, not 72% over current values. So far it looks like T1 HAM's will have 2/3rds the range of fury HM's while doing more damage and having much better application of damage to the tune of ~93m explosion radius vs ~180m for furys (at GMP 5).



ok if thats the case fossie can you confirm or denie this please so i can crunch the numbers more accurately ? is t2 furry values be bassed of the revised t1 values ?

It can easily be confirmed using the sheet provided and some basic math. 140(New HM explosion radius) * 1.72 = 240.8 rounded to the nearest digit is 241, which is what the spreadsheet has. Also note the way it's stated in the op: "Fury: ...unify penalties to explosion radius (+72%) and velocity (-16%) across the sizes" It is defining a rule for all fury variants across the current guided missile types, not creating a second penalty to HM furies.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4108 - 2012-10-03 03:58:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
serras bang wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
serras bang wrote:
dont go by the spreed sheet the whole thing is wrong or what fossie is saying on the forums is wrong one of the 2 example 215 dose not translate into 240 with a 72% increase its 365 so please fossie fix one of them so it actualy adds up.

It's 72% over revised T1, not 72% over current values. So far it looks like T1 HAM's will have 2/3rds the range of fury HM's while doing more damage and having much better application of damage to the tune of ~93m explosion radius vs ~180m for furys (at GMP 5).



ok if thats the case fossie can you confirm or denie this please so i can crunch the numbers more accurately ? is t2 furry values be bassed of the revised t1 values ?

It can easily be confirmed using the sheet provided and some basic math. 140(New HM explosion radius) * 1.72 = 240.8 rounded to the nearest digit is 241, which is what the spreadsheet has. Also note the way it's stated in the op: "Fury: ...unify penalties to explosion radius (+72%) and velocity (-16%) across the sizes" It is defining a rule for all fury variants across the current guided missile types, not creating a second penalty to HM furies.


ok if thats the case then furys are still perfectly viable the ranges still suck badly though
Ellente Fervens
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4109 - 2012-10-03 04:16:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellente Fervens
I just ran the numbers on furies.
These numbers are based on level 5 skills.

Firstly a perfect hit is 95% of current damage under the new numbers.

MWD not reported as this does not change missile damage due to sig radius increase is balance by speed increase.

Previously furies could score perfect hits on BC's and up without rigs or ewar.
Post change a target painter is required to hit a BC perfectly (399), although if it using an AB it will be damage reduced to 50%(198).
While a BS will still be hit perfectly (399) without EWAR even with an AB.

With a TP and a web on the target, you can hit a BC perfectly regardless of prop mod.
it will be possible to hit a cruiser perfectly, while doing about 55% damage (219) if it is using an AB.

In summary, anything you could hit perfectly with TP + web before you can still hit perfectly with furies, but your overall damage will be reduced by 5%
Anything you could hit with just a TP will still be hit perfectly.
However anything your not hitting perfectly you will be hitting even worse after changes, on top of the 5% overall damage reduction.

Except the range is roughly a third (37%) of what it was!


Here are the numbers I used
Values for missiles are after skills + ship (only affects damage)
old new
damage 421 399
Exp Rad 161.25m 180.75m
Exp Vel 145.5m/s 102m/s

cruiser 135m 220m/s 527m/s with AB
BC 275m 200m/s 470m/s with AB
BS 420m 100m/s 235m/s with AB
Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#4110 - 2012-10-03 04:17:35 UTC
Ellente Fervens wrote:
So for every weapon system, except long range missiles, T2 ammo offers you a choice of short range high damage v's long range medium/low damage.
Under this proposal though, long range missiles T2 ammo gets the choice of normal damage (potentially higher effective damage against small/fast targets) low range v's low range higher potential damage against big/slow targets and worse against normal/small/fast.

Bloody terrible choice. Faction ammo becomes the best ammo in all situations. Keeps range, boosts damage against all targets. Where is the choice?



How do you think turrets work?

The SR T2 AMMO has tracking and range penaties, as well a cap consumption increase ( where applicable).
Ellente Fervens
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4111 - 2012-10-03 04:28:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellente Fervens
Onictus wrote:

How do you think turrets work?

The SR T2 AMMO has tracking and range penalties, as well a cap consumption increase ( where applicable).

do you mean the short range ammo for both gun types? or both ammo types for short range guns?

I think the latter is correct not the former. (Javlin (T2 SR rails) has a tracking bonus not penalty)

What I was trying to say was that for guns T2 ammo, provided you can overcome the application problems (tracking) represents the highest possible damage at both ends of the range scale.
Currently T2 ammo on HMs represents best possible application of damage at short range, and reduced potential damage with precision missiles. Or best potential damage with similar range and hardest damage application.

aha I thought of a better way of explaining what I mean :)
Currently
high tracking, 80% ish damage, halved range. - precision
lowest tracking, 128% is damage, 90% range - fury

proposed
high tracking, normal damage, halved range - precision
Lowest damage, 135% damage, halved range - fury
Sarayu Wisdom
Dark Horse Cartel.
#4112 - 2012-10-03 05:35:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarayu Wisdom
I have to say i'm very disappointed in the Nerf coming to the cane. The cane is by far the best Buffer armor boat for its class and this Nerf will be dramatically changing the way i fly the cane. I personally run 2x rolled 1600 plates in the lows and full rack of t2 duel 180 autos and 2 small nuets in the high slots. This fit will be 100% impossible to run now due to the PG change being made.

Just b/c a boat has a ton of left over PG when flown as a shield boat instead of an armor boat doesn't mean it should get a Nerf. I don't think ur taking into consideration the armor side of the cane in terms of running it as a solo pvp boat. 1 1600 plate is not enough buffer to take gate fire when in low sec and still secure a kill or 2 when u have 2-3 people beating on you. I have tried it with an alt, It failed miserably.


http://i.imgur.com/BDwen.png The hurricane fit in EFT with my Alts skills who flys it. Dps goes up dramatically with T2 and faction ammo, but that's not why i showed the fit. I showed the fit to show that the armor aspect of the cane is pretty much gone. When tried to fly it solo. This is just my opinion and i'm sure ppl will argue u don't need 2x plates, but this is my personal preference.


Also This is best fit for fighting a myrm that is running that new Active shifting armor Mod b/c u need the endurance to get him capped out to kill him other wise u don't have a chance in the world at killing him.
LtTrog
Perkone
Caldari State
#4113 - 2012-10-03 06:25:30 UTC
I was ok with the 25% range nerf to HML untill I saw the range on T2 ammo thats nearly 66% reduction. and we are not getting the missile tracting mods? come on that is ridiculous.
LtTrog
Perkone
Caldari State
#4114 - 2012-10-03 08:09:48 UTC
And your making torps even worse? Giving cruise a slight dps/application buff in exchange for cutting their range nearly in half?
Hams hams are getting the same treatment as torps slight dps buff but less range and will find it harder to aply that dps so overall worse too

I'm trying to resist going all emo here but really what do you have against caldari ships?

Torps are only viable on one very expensive ship (in terms of Isk and sp), now they are going to need 3 painters to even hit a BS for full dps and will have even less range. please tell me thats not your full plan for the system.
I'm disregarding stealth bombers as they are a very specialised ship and from what I know work quite well

My plan was to adapt or die by skilling into larger hulls but not sure thats going to be worth it now, Ill just have to bight the bullet and cross train.

..... ok came back to this post after I calmed down a bit. Cruise, hmm well no one ever uses the range of cruise anyway so ok cut the range but hits harder ok I get it...

but hams and torps getting less range? come on its madness that a BS class weapon has cruiser range any way and they are both getting cut? Can you please tell us why you think that is a good idea? Also has it been decided yet if HAMs are going to be kinder on grid? in line with other short range systems
Sigras
Conglomo
#4115 - 2012-10-03 08:53:19 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:

FYI, thats not true after the nerfs. Then its 37.5 km before skills. And thats just the theoretical max, not what they will reach ingame. So just learn to read and understand before you come back. Please.


Go look at turrets "before skills:" and get back to us.


For example .. 720mm Arty - Tremor - 43 + 18. In my book somehow this is more than 37.5 km, no? And esp. considering the fact there is also falloff ... go look at "falloff" for missiles and get back to us. Or better, dont come back at all. Really sick of this sh*t :)

you realize that turrets get one range bonus skill to optimal and missiles get two right? after the change, unbonused missiles (with out range rigs) will go 63.3 km so say 60, and they will do all of their damage at 60 km minus sig radius/velocity.

Lasers without range modifications will go 54 + 10 km and the missile systems will do more damage out there.

Couple this with the fact that missiles can switch damage type and can change to better tracking ammo if need be. i think missiles will be fine.
Noemi Nagano
SYN Holding
Synergy of Steel
#4116 - 2012-10-03 09:18:36 UTC
Sigras wrote:

you realize that turrets get one range bonus skill to optimal and missiles get two right?


you realize turrets get a bonus to optimal range and one to falloff, right? So 2 skills ... ( Missiles get also 2 skills, one for velocity and one for flight time, which both add up together to missile optimal. If it was me, I would adjust this all, also the % per level. )

And you do realize a missile cant reach out as far as turret does, due to this falloff?

Apart from that, do you realise missiles get 2 skills for RoF and damage (apart from the basic skill) with *less* bonus than turrets do? For missiles its 3% RoF and 2% damage per level (Rapid Fire and Missile Bombardment), for turrets its 4% RoF and 3% damage per level ... why? That adds up to 2 times 5% at level 5 ...

I said it again and again, looking at just 1 number or stat is not what will give you a perfect image of whats really happening.

In game there is no Drake-OPness. In fact in all PvP but nullsec the Drake is NOT the most common BC, and in Highsec its only used because its admitted the easiest start into l4s (skillwise).

In my book this game has to be changed in so many aspects to make it balanced again, and I can agree on there are things also a bit out of line with HML (too easy to use in PvE vs med turrets lr which makes the other 3 t3s worse in missions), but assuming we balance around PvP (which is how nearly every one set right wants it to be done) there are more urgent things than Drakes and HML. If this nerf is needed, do it. But if afterwards there will be no long range PvP at all for missile users and most probably also no missile PvP for Caldari with any other ship than frig class or maybe a HAM-Tengu (not sure about this) then this would be not balance but more injustice and less chance for variance than now.

Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#4117 - 2012-10-03 09:22:22 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:

Apart from that, do you realise missiles get 2 skills for RoF and damage (apart from the basic skill) with *less* bonus than turrets do? For missiles its 3% RoF and 2% damage per level (Rapid Fire and Missile Bombardment), for turrets its 4% RoF and 3% damage per level ... why? That adds up to 2 times 5% at level 5 ...

Because turrets are way better than missiles, even now before the nerf, after the nerf missiles will be so bad that no one will use them.
Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#4118 - 2012-10-03 09:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Ellente Fervens wrote:
Onictus wrote:

How do you think turrets work?

The SR T2 AMMO has tracking and range penalties, as well a cap consumption increase ( where applicable).

do you mean the short range ammo for both gun types? or both ammo types for short range guns?

I think the latter is correct not the former. (Javlin (T2 SR rails) has a tracking bonus not penalty)

What I was trying to say was that for guns T2 ammo, provided you can overcome the application problems (tracking) represents the highest possible damage at both ends of the range scale.
Currently T2 ammo on HMs represents best possible application of damage at short range, and reduced potential damage with precision missiles. Or best potential damage with similar range and hardest damage application.

aha I thought of a better way of explaining what I mean :)
Currently
high tracking, 80% ish damage, halved range. - precision
lowest tracking, 128% is damage, 90% range - fury

proposed
high tracking, normal damage, halved range - precision
Lowest damage, 135% damage, halved range - fury



-75% range
+25% cap
0.75% tracking "multiplier"........0.1x.75 is 0.75.....its a penalty
Sigras
Conglomo
#4119 - 2012-10-03 11:01:34 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Sigras wrote:

you realize that turrets get one range bonus skill to optimal and missiles get two right?


you realize turrets get a bonus to optimal range and one to falloff, right? So 2 skills ... ( Missiles get also 2 skills, one for velocity and one for flight time, which both add up together to missile optimal. If it was me, I would adjust this all, also the % per level. )

you realize that falloff means a damage reduction right?
You seem to not listen to words, so lets try pictures

all calculations are done with max skills; the only things affecting the turrets are max skills and the ships/modules listed

the light blue is 250 railguns with spike on a brutix with three magstabs
the dark blue is 720 howitzers with tremor on a hurricane with three gyrostabs
the red is heavy beam lasers with aurora on a harbinger with three heat sinks
the green is HMLs on a drake with CN scourge missiles with three BCS
the black is where HMLs will be on a drake with CN scourge missiles and three BCS

the missile ranges are all set back 3-4 km to compensate for the range loss due to the target moving.

ships with less range generally have higher damage output, its called incomparable balance

So yes, all of the turrets can hit farther out than the missiles can, but the damage the missiles do in their optimal is so much greater as to make this an incomparable item

Yes I know that turrets can increase their range with TEs TCs, but Missiles can increase their range with range rigs

Yes I know that turrets do instant damage while missiles have travel time, but missiles have artillery like alpha, no cap cost, extra utility with shorter ranged T2 missiles, and the ability to switch damage types to compensate
(yes i know that the drake takes a damage hit when switching damage types, but CCP seems to be moving away from the kinetic only bonus to caldari ships so wait and see)

All of these things are incomparable differences that go into making missiles a very well balanced system . . . does the green line look very balanced to you?
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#4120 - 2012-10-03 11:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Well let us face it: caldari are completely f....
Probably because they were slightly competitive to winmatar which still will be winmatar after the balance is done so far as I saw the new overkill rupture.

I mean: Cadari BS are completely useless in PVP, so you only had drake and Tengu. Now the drake and Tengu willbe crap and the caldari have.... erm? Nothing? LOL.
And let us face it: Versus the Hurricane the drake had alredy its problems.
Drake will be the new Maller: BAIT.
ROFL.
So: I suppose some Minnies whined about that their Winmatar status could be eaten by caldari so they nerfed caldari completely.
I wonder why everbody speaks about nerfing the Tengu when the Loki is a far more dangerous PVP ship?
Loki would need a far heavier nerf.
But oh sorry..... Winmatar. LOL.

The nerf of hm is really too much and ham neeed more buff than this 10% less powergrid. training time for using HAM good is awsome because you really need missile bombardment and missile projection at 5. And even then your range is crap.
I mean: WHY do minmatar medium turrets kill frigs like flies? No other medium weapon can kill frigs AND cruisers like hell and additionally without cap need and damage type choosing?

Another question: What is with the rapid light missile launcher? It seems CCP has completely forgotten it.