EVE General Discussion

So you can't answer the question, then? You can't explain why it's an add-on, and the service that it's supposed to be an add-on to is also rather shaky.

I don't really have to pretend since I'm still waiting. If you feel you have provided an answer, then great — then you have it really close at hand and can provide it quickly and easily.

So… why “must” resculpting be considered an add-on or an option of this supposed service you pay for? Why does a change on the back-end suddenly turn a service into a mere add-on?

…me asking you a very simple question and you not providing a clear answer to it. There's nothing particularly clever about it — it's just questioning what I feel is a questionable conclusion.

Because it rather seems like you are trying to divert attention from the fact that you couldn't answer my question. Also, as luck would have it, your answer would help answering your question.

Okay. Now wait for her to demonstrate that it is not an add-on to an existing service, for a reason other than CCP making it available only at an additional cost.

Edit: She will now claim that this does not answer her question, and that she will therefore not provide her own arguments.

Requiring human interaction is not a prerequisite for it being a service, and no, flagging a character for resculpting is not part of the client. Never has been. That's why the service was invented and why they are now (re)offering it using an upgraded back-end and a lower price.

You got that one backwards. The infrastructure is not the service. The service (your subscription) is using the infrastructure — see consideration 3. Resculpting is a different service that partially uses the same infrastructure. It's a separate service enabled by the presence of the infrastructure. It also uses a different part of said infrastructure that isn't available in the subscription service, namely the ability to flag your character for a resculpt.

…oh, and no, it doesn't answer the question. It just describes some back-end details which, by the definition we're using, aren't relevant to determining whether it's a service or not. When replying to a “why” question, try answering it in the form of “because…”. E.g. resculpting is a service because it's not something the client will let you do under normal circumstances, and because it's a consumable (a different one than the subscription service).

The procedure requiring human interaction is the distinguishing feature that used to set it apart from the service we are already paying for. It is what made the service a service, rather than an add-on to an existing service, by virtue of requiring an investment on behalf of the service provider that went beyond providing the service he is already providing. This is what justifies a service fee.

Also, the coding involved in this procedure is server back-end and client side, exactly as I said. There is a client-side interface for it present, which has been there since Incarna. Which is in the code. Which is what I said.



I never said the infrastructure was the service. I said providing the infrastructure was part of the service CCP is offering. L2R.


And now - *drumroll* - this is the part where she (supposedly) presents her arguments for why this is a separate service. I guess it is, because she replied, and she said she would present her arguments when her question was addressed. So here gooes:


So... what did we take away from that?

"Resculpting is a different service that partially uses the same infrastructure."
"It's a separate service enabled by the presence of the infrastructure."

Okay. It's different and it's separate. Got it. Not one word on why it is different or separate. It just is. Brilliant argumentation. Tippia should be holding rhetorics classes.

And then we have:

"It also uses a different part of said infrastructure that isn't available in the subscription service, [...]"

Already addressed before she posted here:

Him. And I'm just a researcher and educator with a penchant for the Socratic method…

…as for the rest, pff! Way to spoil the ending!

Eh, no. What distinguishes it is that the service we're already paying for doesn't offer this functionality — not now, nor in the past. As such, if it wasn't an add-on in the past, as you seem to claim, then it isn't one now either. Again: just because they have changed things on the back-end and put in some work-saving automation doesn't mean that the service ceases to be a service.

So… why “must” resculpting be considered an add-on or an option of this supposed service you pay for? Why does a change on the back-end suddenly turn a service into a mere add-on?

Ok, fine. Now they're offering access to a different part of the infrastructure than the one provided by the subscription service.

…aside from the difference mentioned: the ability to flag our character for a resculpt.

By the way, you grossly misidentified the part where I gave you a taste of the arguments why it's a separate service.

Character resculpting is not now nor ever has been part of regular gameplay. It has always been a service available for an additional cost. What has changed besides some backend changes that have no relevance to the end user?

Character sculpting is a service. You get one issue of that service for free when you create the account, and CCP have occasionally offered free use of the service when new features have been added to that service.

Character sculpting involves shaping the face & body of the character, selecting skin colours, clothing, makeup, hair, and other aesthetic features. This input is then provided to the rendering service (which lives server-side), and the result is made available to game clients as a static image (such as you see on the left here in the forums, as you see on the character selection page, and as you see in chat windows in-game).

This service is not part of the day to day simulation of the EVE universe. This service consumes significant resources — CCP were very clear about this when the service was first introduced, and even told us that the high quality renders would take time to appear.

What you interact with on the client side is merely the client side of the character sculpting & rendering service.

As for your quote from "Is it a service", I find it helps to quote the entirety of a definition when deciding if it applies in your circumstance:



Note the third line: applications are not services, they enable services that may be provided by someone else. Just because you have the character sculpting tool as part of your EVE Online client doesn't mean that the character sculpting service is part of the client. The character sculpting interface in the client allows the player to interact with the character sculpting service back at CCP's server farm (the same way that EVE Online is itself a service accessed through the client application on your computer).

This local application used to access a remote service works in much the same way that you interact with your bank through an Internet Banking interface. You are not storing money on your computer. Your bank is not processing financial transactions on your computer. You are not actually handling your money when you touch your computer. You are interacting with a service provided by the bank to instruct them to do things with your money. So too, when you interact with the sculpting tool provided in the EVE client, you are merely providing instructions to the character sculpting service that operates on CCP's servers.

With the banking scenario, you employ the bank to provide you with a service: this would be holding your money. The bank then provides you a service called "Internet Banking" which is not an add-on to their main banking service, the Internet Banking is a service in its own right (in much the same way that loans and term deposits are services separate to savings and cheque accounts). You can use the Internet Banking service to access all of your other services: term deposits, loans, savings accounts. In the banking world, these things are referred to as "facilities" rather than "services" since they are in the service business. You might think "facility" is a synonym for "add-on" but facilities are charged just like services should be.

Character sculpting is an expensive task in terms of computer time. It is a facility that customers can request and purchase. Character sculpting does not form part of everyday life in EVE Online, thus it is drawing a long bow to suggest that character sculpting is an add-on or option to the service of flying pretend spaceships in a virtual universe, or engaging in virtual capitalism in an imaginary market. Add-ons or options for flying-in-space would be things such as the ability to store more saved fittings or have more hangar space in stations.

Your single-mindedness in wishing to perceive character sculpting as an add-on or option doesn't make it such. You cannot add the sculpting service to your client. CCP doesn't provide that option. What you have is an application which enables CCP to provide the character sculpting service without requiring you to generate the detailed list of instructions for their rendering farm by hand.

No ...what you ve done with your skill choice is ypur choice and letting someone change his skill has /can have dramatic influence on the game there or is a pay to win thingy , plastic surergy doesn't have any effect on this game and there fore is a vanity thingy

Tippia 2.0?

You know, your argumentation is kinda interesting. And I'd even be willing to buy into it - if I believed for even a second that there is considerable cost involved on CCP's end.

Every trial account is allowed to create 3 separate characters, and checking back with CCP on another issue, there is virtually no limitation to the amount of trial accounts you are allowed to create. There is a clause against abuse of this feature, but GMs informed me that the threshold for investigations is incredibly high. So if the character creation process really caused mentionable cost for CCP, they would be dead-broke by now.
I'd have to do some fact-checks before commenting on the functionality of the character creator, but no, you can't tell me that 15$ is an adequate pricing, even if we were to consider this a service, following your arguments.

And as to character sculpting and appearance not being part of gameplay.. please. Just.. please.