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THINGS THAT ANNOY BART: MACKINAW BALANCE FAIL

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Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#1 - 2012-09-25 06:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Gargant
If CCP's 'barge buff' goal was to kill off Hulkageddon? Congrats, Mission Accomplished.

If CCP's goal was to balance the Exhumer/barge classes? Bigtime Miserable Failure.

Prior to August 8, we would find a fair number of both Macks and Hulks.
Today mining is turning into Mackinaw online.

Why? Simple.

Miners only care about three things: Cargo, Yield, EHP. And not equally.
After scanning thousands of Hulks/Macks over the years, i found:

-Cargo fits (about 60% of the time)
-Yield fits (about 30% of the time)
-Ehp fits (about 10% of the time)

Clearly, Cargo is the most 'desirable trait'.

So, enter the August 8 Mining Barge fail-patch:

Each 'trait' became the specialty of a different Exhumer.

Hulk = Yield Exhumer
Mack = Cargo Exhumer
Skiff = EHP Exhumer.

Heres the problem:
When you rank each exhumer by 'trait', the imbalance becomes clear. Imagine its the Olympics and gold, silver and bronze medals are awarded for each characteristic.

Cargo event, (most desired trait): mack #1, skiff #2, hulk #3
Yield event, (2nd most important): hulk #1, mack #2, skiff #3
Ehp event, (3rd most important): skiff #1, mack #2, hulk #3.

Mackinaw is #1, #2 and #2. (a gold and two silvers, with the gold in the most important category)
Hulk is #1, #3 and #3, (a gold and two bronzes, and distant 3rds at that.)
Skiff is #1, #2 and #3, (gold, silver, bronze - a nice balance if the mack wasn't 'just better')

Mackinaw clearly comes out well ahead of the other two.
Not only is it by a large margin, the best in the most important category, its a strong second in the others. Hulks and Skiffs fall by the wayside as the Mackinaw becomes the obvious choice.

This same mistake is repeated in the t1 Mining Barges as well.

(Note to resident isd: here's where i provide a helpful solution, hopefully placing this thread outside of your ever-flexible definition of a rant)

Easiest solution?
Swap the EHP of the Hulk and the Mackinaw.

Each Exhumer becomes: 1st in one category, 2nd in another, and 3rd in the last.
1-2-3 for each Exhumer, and the goal of tiericide is achieved - 3 exhumers without a 'obvious' best choice.

While the Mackinaw will still likely be the most popular (best in cargo) the imbalance would not be quite so obviously pronounced.

As a bonus, the abusive 'AFK' nature of the Mackinaw would be balanced by its lower EHP and vulnerability to solo ganks when failfit. pit the natural desire to lazy-AFK mine vs higher risk of getting ganked. Hulk miners earn their keep through cargo management, Mackinaw miners earn it by fitting tank and watching out for danger.

Its Balance 101 - Class dismissed. Study harder next time, devs.

Oh, and i'll do a pre-emptive strike: Am i mad? No.Big smile

[EDIT: Changed from all caps. Easier on the eyes this way. - CCP Gargant]
TharOkha
0asis Group
#2 - 2012-09-25 06:43:12 UTC
Between the TAB and SHIFT button, there is one magical button called CapsLock. You should try to turn it off before you post.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2012-09-25 06:46:03 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
TLDR

Change the macks base tank to the hulks and leave the hulk where it is. Skiff will then get the job it was ment to have.
TharOkha
0asis Group
#4 - 2012-09-25 06:53:08 UTC
According post.
Yes there is quite imbalance in mining. Mack has nearly as same yeld as hulk. So everybody preffers macks. Also skiff lacks its purpose. Large EHP is great but ...

. So:
-increase yeld for hulks or lower yeld for macks (so miners will think twice if yeld or tank/cargo).
-make skiff "ninja miner" for low/null. Add one hi-slot for covert ops cloaking device(99% cpu reduction etc) and increase agility.

after this we should see more hulks and skiffs flying arround

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
#5 - 2012-09-25 06:55:13 UTC
All caps makes my eyes hurt, but aside from that I would say it isn't a bad alternative.

IMHO, I'd be happy with going back to the old base EHP totals though giving them fitting equivalency to frigs, cruisers and battleships respectively. They still couldn't fit turrets, though with the extra CPU and PG you'd have the space for a huge variety of fits. Keeping ore holds (perhaps lower them all to roughly where the Hulk is currently) as well as keeping slot arraignments as is would also be a good idea.
CCP Gargant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2012-09-25 09:00:31 UTC
Thread moved from General Discussion

CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-09-25 10:15:53 UTC
You can get a mack to bring in almost as much as a hulk too, with that extra lowslot. Same with the retriever vs the other barges. Not the balance we'd hoped for. Half the problem is that mining is so boring, afk mining is the only sane way to do it.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Ryshca
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-09-25 10:18:20 UTC
Thanks TharOkha for the summary. And the capslock wall of text is worth to read as it seems!!
Imho ThatOkha delivery some nice suggestions. Basicly it comes to the points:

-mackinaw needs a nerf
They got almost the same mining yield as the hulk, while they got much more hp and the best cargo hold.

-skiff needs another boost as they are not worth to be used in low-sec, 0.0.
They just got more hp which means they can be caught so easy as other exhumers. It just takes longer to kill them, which is pointless since they are still defenceless.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#9 - 2012-09-25 12:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
Quote:
they are still defenceless


InB4 Skiff Killmail

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Ryshca
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-09-25 13:41:10 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Quote:
they are still defenceless


InB4 Skiff Killmail


InB4, what secret language are you using?
Or which decryption do i need for it?

But considering you are saying Skiff Killmail, you are supporting my statement, since it means it is a killmail with a destroyed skiff on it, thanks!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#11 - 2012-09-25 13:53:15 UTC
I dunno where this survey happened, but on the mining ops I work Hulks show up more often.

Boosted Hulk is more than Boosted Mackinaw, and noone cares if the mack holds more when you have dedicated haulers working.

I guess solo guys have different concerns.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Alphaphi
KASK Heavy logistics
#12 - 2012-09-26 05:56:19 UTC
Ryshca wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Quote:
they are still defenceless


InB4 Skiff Killmail


InB4, what secret language are you using?
Or which decryption do i need for it?

But considering you are saying Skiff Killmail, you are supporting my statement, since it means it is a killmail with a destroyed skiff on it, thanks!


i think he meant one of these:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14320342

Battle skiff, best skiff.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#13 - 2012-09-26 06:58:59 UTC
To be fair, that Stealth Bomber fit had a lot wrong with it; I don't think it would have had much chance surviving anything.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#14 - 2012-09-26 18:07:21 UTC
As this is all so painfully obvious, how was it set up this way in the first place? it makes 0 sense to use a hulk for anything, period.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#15 - 2012-09-26 18:15:40 UTC
Malice Redeemer wrote:
As this is all so painfully obvious, how was it set up this way in the first place? it makes 0 sense to use a hulk for anything, period.

Maybe for solo work, you could be right.

But on an op with proper support, the Hulk has no competition.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-09-26 21:20:15 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Malice Redeemer wrote:
As this is all so painfully obvious, how was it set up this way in the first place? it makes 0 sense to use a hulk for anything, period.

Maybe for solo work, you could be right.

But on an op with proper support, the Hulk has no competition.

This ^^^^^^^^^ is correct, I mine with an Orca booster and one hulk and one retriever and I hate the retriever during the op, a mackinaw would be no better, I have a hulk for my other alt and am just waiting to train mining barge V so I can start to destroy roids real quick

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#17 - 2012-09-27 00:30:33 UTC
most miners are solo (semi) afk miners. mack is best at this by far and therefore most popular (good job CCP. sincerely)
Hulk has super yield, especially when it has an Orca to boost and haul for it. Best fleet miner and used thusly in fleets ive seen (again, nice one)
skiff is uber tough. best bait miner and bloody good fun. (thanks CCP)

feature working as intended? i think so.

the only thing that i'd consider changing is lowering ehp's and separating yields a smidge.
hulkaggeddon will still go ahead. miners aren't invincible and there are other indies to hunt.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
#18 - 2012-09-27 01:44:01 UTC
I think this is a circumstance where the metagame and the actual game conflict. I multibox like a boss, but I only have one monitor. i cannot run a fleet of hulks efficiently, but i can run a fleet of macks efficiently simply because alt tabbing between clients on my setup doesn't work fast enough for me to get a breather between cycles and i have to time my starts and stops, and god forbid i get jammed by any NPCs it throws my whole system off. macks are just flat out more user friendly for most types of mining/miners. as far as actual ship attributes i think they are balanced, but as far as using each of them, the mack is easiest in almost every circumstance given the nature of mining. although i wouldnt mind a switch in EHP between the mack and the hulk, i honestly think it would be better to just double all mining barge/exhumer ore holds. if i could fit two cycles into a hulk, i would use them and be more attentive to my mining when i did it. that would really please the AFK type miners as well. frankly, i don't ever feel a need to use the Skiff since i am always in a boosted fleet and don't really need the extra protection, even in nulsec,
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-09-27 02:08:52 UTC
Why so much hate about this?
sell your hulk and buy a mack if you mine solo
if you mine in fleet and solo you have to buy a mack for your solo duties
if you only mine with orca support just keep your hulk.

people cargo fit for solo ( because you spend more time in warp then mining)
People fit for Yield when in ops because you can jetcan your ore and have orca tractor beam it for you AKA you never leave the belt.
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
#20 - 2012-09-27 02:36:49 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
Why so much hate about this?
sell your hulk and buy a mack if you mine solo
if you mine in fleet and solo you have to buy a mack for your solo duties
if you only mine with orca support just keep your hulk.

people cargo fit for solo ( because you spend more time in warp then mining)
People fit for Yield when in ops because you can jetcan your ore and have orca tractor beam it for you AKA you never leave the belt.



Although i don't quite agree with OP there is still some merit to his argument. barges/exhumers are better, but still need some fine tuning. Hulk when boosted fills up to fast if you are multiboxing or semi afking having to tend to it every 2 or 3 minutes is just a bit to much effort for mining considering how droll it can be. the skiff seems to be underwhelming as well. there are no complaints about the retriever/mack, aside from the fact that it is the only one that is more or less perfect for what its intended to do. hulk/covetor needs a bit more ore hold or it becomes too tedious, and procurer/skiff only has EHP as its sell point which isn't quite enough to make it an attractive enough option to actually use, unless you are paranoid about gankage. give it back its warp strength bonus and maybe you will see it mining in lowsec more or something, not sure exactly what it needs though

I think this all stems from having six ships requiring roughly the same skills doing roughly the same thing and finding a way to give each of them a specific job becomes difficult to both achieve and balance.
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