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PvP frigate question
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Tetsuya Tsyung
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-09-24 12:33:31 UTC
Been playing a while but PvP is still an area of game I suck at and no little about. Been looking at flying a republic fleet firetail working up to a dramiel for the time being, both kinda fit and fly the sameish but firetail is obviously a poor mans version with no drones. Have a couple of questions I was wondering if anyone could help with though.

Looking at using fairly standard dual prop fit for gang pvp, flying with 5-10 others. So have been looking at the scramble vs disrupter debate, whats the advice?

Scramble means you get in close, stop them from using MWD, but leave urself vulnerable to neuting.
Disrupter means you stay at 15-20k, lose your DPS unless using artys but stay out of neut range.

aaaaaand discuss..........


Also something I havnt seen done so I assume its a bad idea, but would like to know why, is using dual prop, a scramble and a webifier rather than the MSE. Could this be useful?

Thanks in advance
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#2 - 2012-09-24 14:10:27 UTC
Scram vs long point? Well, you basically answered it yourself. Either you go in with scram trading off range "safety" for dps/outtracking target's guns or you keep him with long point and kite while slowly wearing his tank off (unless he will MWD out of your point range and warp off or he will tank your damage perfectly till you get bored/out of ammo/help arrives and kills him or you fu*k up and he will web you and lay his vengeance upon your ship).

It all depends how you wanna play your fight and in fleet roles can be different, you don't need 10 points on one target so maybe some of your gang members should fit for tackle and some for pure dps.

Invalid signature format
Charles Burger
Reckless Abandon
#3 - 2012-09-24 15:00:13 UTC
Tetsuya Tsyung wrote:
Been playing a while but PvP is still an area of game I suck at and no little about.

OK, stop even thinking about faction frigates let alone pirate ones.
Looks like you're to be (one of) the tackler of the gang, so buy 20 Slashers or Condors and play with them until you have some experience. Once you get good at that you can go up to an interceptor to get longer range point, MWD bonus, more speed etc. Or an AF to be a heavy tackler, to hold them down for longer while your mates arrive.

THEN and only then should you fly expensive faction frigates. Dramiel really is not intended for what you want to use it for. It is mostly a skirmisher to hit and run straggling frigs. If you're a tackler for a 5-10 man gang then a Slasher does that job perfectly well and a lot cheaper.
Delucian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-09-24 21:32:08 UTC
Charles Burger wrote:
Tetsuya Tsyung wrote:
Been playing a while but PvP is still an area of game I suck at and no little about.

OK, stop even thinking about faction frigates let alone pirate ones.
Looks like you're to be (one of) the tackler of the gang, so buy 20 Slashers or Condors and play with them until you have some experience. Once you get good at that you can go up to an interceptor to get longer range point, MWD bonus, more speed etc. Or an AF to be a heavy tackler, to hold them down for longer while your mates arrive.

THEN and only then should you fly expensive faction frigates. Dramiel really is not intended for what you want to use it for. It is mostly a skirmisher to hit and run straggling frigs. If you're a tackler for a 5-10 man gang then a Slasher does that job perfectly well and a lot cheaper.


I would only change Charles' note above by saying lose a minimum of 50 Slashers, Executioners and Atrons (Condors kinda suck). Once you get good with tthem then get you a Taranis. Its a fantastic little boat.

I agree though the Slasher is a really good interceptor style T1 frigate right now.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#5 - 2012-09-24 21:43:32 UTC
Use any of the new Attack Frigs as your trainer ship. Yes even condor they are awesome Twisted

Then once you are comfortable then feel free to get into the faction fleet ships (leave the pirate faction ships for now.)

If minnie is your race of choice then fly the slasher it is an excellent little ship for you to learn the ropes in. then upgrade to Firetale (they aren't that expensive) once you are comforable in your fleet role and have the isk income so you ddon't need to worry about losing them (because you WILL)

From then on you can move into interceptors or AF's as you see fit. Don't try to rush it as the journey will ensure your skill set increase to maximise your effectiveness with ships of increased capability.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#6 - 2012-09-24 21:48:50 UTC
Delucian wrote:


I would only change Charles' note above by saying lose a minimum of 50 Slashers, Executioners and Atrons (Condors kinda suck). Once you get good with tthem then get you a Taranis. Its a fantastic little boat.

I agree though the Slasher is a really good interceptor style T1 frigate right now.


Hmm, the Condor and Executioner are actually my favorite, but for different circumstances.

Condor's great for fitting long point, MWD, light missiles, overdrives/nanos and the sort, and a couple TD's and kiting the hell out of your foes. The executioner is a better "midrange" light brawler/fast tackler, at least in my opinion. And the nice thing about the Condor is that the dual TD's allow you to be invincible against anything but *maybe* some destroyers, and missile ships. And when the changes are made, my double TD Condor will be godmode in solo/small gang.
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-09-25 05:50:00 UTC
Love my Stiletto
Nihi Lismus
A Lone Wolf Inc.
#8 - 2012-09-25 06:43:30 UTC
Tetsuya Tsyung wrote:
*snip* but leave urself vulnerable to neuting.*snip*


NOS

Helft dem Kleinkünstler!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-09-25 06:56:02 UTC
Delucian wrote:
Charles Burger wrote:
Tetsuya Tsyung wrote:
Been playing a while but PvP is still an area of game I suck at and no little about.

OK, stop even thinking about faction frigates let alone pirate ones.
Looks like you're to be (one of) the tackler of the gang, so buy 20 Slashers or Condors and play with them until you have some experience. Once you get good at that you can go up to an interceptor to get longer range point, MWD bonus, more speed etc. Or an AF to be a heavy tackler, to hold them down for longer while your mates arrive.

THEN and only then should you fly expensive faction frigates. Dramiel really is not intended for what you want to use it for. It is mostly a skirmisher to hit and run straggling frigs. If you're a tackler for a 5-10 man gang then a Slasher does that job perfectly well and a lot cheaper.


I would only change Charles' note above by saying lose a minimum of 50 Slashers, Executioners and Atrons (Condors kinda suck). Once you get good with tthem then get you a Taranis. Its a fantastic little boat.

I agree though the Slasher is a really good interceptor style T1 frigate right now.


Condors most certainly don't suck, I've taken to using them for generaly flying around.

It's no Slicer or Dram, but its not bad.
Dracan02
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#10 - 2012-09-25 07:45:23 UTC
Tetsuya Tsyung wrote:
Been playing a while but PvP is still an area of game I suck at and no little about. Been looking at flying a republic fleet firetail working up to a dramiel for the time being, both kinda fit and fly the sameish but firetail is obviously a poor mans version with no drones. Have a couple of questions I was wondering if anyone could help with though.

Looking at using fairly standard dual prop fit for gang pvp, flying with 5-10 others. So have been looking at the scramble vs disrupter debate, whats the advice?

Scramble means you get in close, stop them from using MWD, but leave urself vulnerable to neuting.
Disrupter means you stay at 15-20k, lose your DPS unless using artys but stay out of neut range.

aaaaaand discuss..........


Also something I havnt seen done so I assume its a bad idea, but would like to know why, is using dual prop, a scramble and a webifier rather than the MSE. Could this be useful?

Thanks in advance


if you are fast tackling for a fleet you need a long point, if you are holding them down for longer or there is no heavy tackle to take over a scram is often better, the one thing all tacklers need is to be able to survive long enough for the target to die/have some one ells tackle. and in a frig the best kind of tank is to be fast with a small sig.

Also if you are using a scram take a web as well as you will be in range of both ether way. And missiles/rockets are good for killing drones as you will not have to worry about tracking/range, guns can do the same thing but require a TE to be reliable.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#11 - 2012-09-26 13:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: OT Smithers
Delucian wrote:
Charles Burger wrote:
Tetsuya Tsyung wrote:
Been playing a while but PvP is still an area of game I suck at and no little about.

OK, stop even thinking about faction frigates let alone pirate ones.
Looks like you're to be (one of) the tackler of the gang, so buy 20 Slashers or Condors and play with them until you have some experience. Once you get good at that you can go up to an interceptor to get longer range point, MWD bonus, more speed etc. Or an AF to be a heavy tackler, to hold them down for longer while your mates arrive.

THEN and only then should you fly expensive faction frigates. Dramiel really is not intended for what you want to use it for. It is mostly a skirmisher to hit and run straggling frigs. If you're a tackler for a 5-10 man gang then a Slasher does that job perfectly well and a lot cheaper.


I would only change Charles' note above by saying lose a minimum of 50 Slashers, Executioners and Atrons (Condors kinda suck). Once you get good with tthem then get you a Taranis. Its a fantastic little boat.

I agree though the Slasher is a really good interceptor style T1 frigate right now.


I would only alter this to say go with a MINIMUM of 170 Slashers, Executioners, and Atrons. Go out and get yourself blown up in all of them before you even think about flying some fancy-pants pirate frigate.

Just to be, you know, sure.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-09-26 13:51:10 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Delucian wrote:
Charles Burger wrote:
Tetsuya Tsyung wrote:
Been playing a while but PvP is still an area of game I suck at and no little about.

OK, stop even thinking about faction frigates let alone pirate ones.
Looks like you're to be (one of) the tackler of the gang, so buy 20 Slashers or Condors and play with them until you have some experience. Once you get good at that you can go up to an interceptor to get longer range point, MWD bonus, more speed etc. Or an AF to be a heavy tackler, to hold them down for longer while your mates arrive.

THEN and only then should you fly expensive faction frigates. Dramiel really is not intended for what you want to use it for. It is mostly a skirmisher to hit and run straggling frigs. If you're a tackler for a 5-10 man gang then a Slasher does that job perfectly well and a lot cheaper.


I would only change Charles' note above by saying lose a minimum of 50 Slashers, Executioners and Atrons (Condors kinda suck). Once you get good with tthem then get you a Taranis. Its a fantastic little boat.

I agree though the Slasher is a really good interceptor style T1 frigate right now.


I would only alter this to say go with a MINIMUM of 170 Slashers, Executioners, and Atrons.

Just to be, you know, sure.



I would only alter this to say go with a MINIMUM of 1700 Slashers, Executioners, and Atrons.

Just to be, you know, sure.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#13 - 2012-09-26 17:27:47 UTC
If you are aiming to learn the survival tactics of gang pvp and eventually solo start off learning to scout and tackle. There is nothing more important than learning your ships limitations before actually taking it into a situation where it is at risk.

Start with a Slasher and aim for a Stilleto.

Flying a tackling ceptor will help you understand the dangers of kiters, drones, ecm, neuts and bad transversal. In the process of learning how to pilot you are aiding your gang.

An mse + scram + point Stilleto with a nos is the single most reliable frigate tackler in the game if you put price aside, its fast, small sig, good cap, good tank and can handle DPS under logi reps very well. Some people might argue that but let me see you stick a scram + point + mwd on any other ceptor with an mse and nos without sacrificing too much.

General rules :

Neuts, learn what ship fits them and what size/range they operate at
Learn your biggest dangers and presume they are fit to the teeth:

Zealot - Expect to be tracked from 50km away
Vaga - Has a neut, can track you within orbit. Dont scram without support, NEVER CHASE ONE
Cynabal- Has a neut, can track you within orbit. Dont scram without support, NEVER CHASE ONE
Huggin - Expect 52 > 73km webs and be wary when tackling around them
Rapier- Expect 52 > 73km webs and be wary when tackling around them
Arazu- Expect 57 > 72km points, be wary that if you are within 22 > 27km they can SCRAM and shut you down
Lachesis- Expect 57 > 72km points, be wary that if you are within 22 > 27km they can SCRAM and shut you down

Drones - Never underestimate them, ever. Kill them if you have to, rewarp if you really have to.

These are all without gang links, a rapier/huggin can easily web out to 100km with gang links. Like I said, all these force multipliers cant be taken into effect every fight but never go with the attitude that its not possible

Learn what to do when **** hits the fan:


  • Never try and deapproach a big ship when you are scrammed, maintain orbit and focus on keeping tackle. If you have no logi expect to either outlive or die.
  • When neuted dont just accept it, spam MWD and align. Its not over till your heavy tackled
  • When neuted and you are struggling to keep cap up, overload your nos if you have one.
  • You get tackled too far off and your gang cant help. DONT PANIC, spam your mwd and plan your align, if you are scrammed CONCENTRATE on keeping alive as long as possible and tackling the tackler.


The fight is already started, im useless now? :


  • Make bounce spots
  • Ask the FC where he wants the scout to push to
  • Get warp-in's to hostiles off the grid
  • Scram heavy tackle away from gang members eg. huggin has your vaga webbed and is faster than him with mwd on. Shut the hugging down and prepare to gtfo as soon as the vaga as free cause your next.


Pretty much all I go by, other small things you will pick up and the rest is common sense really.
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#14 - 2012-09-26 18:11:18 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Delucian wrote:
Charles Burger wrote:
Tetsuya Tsyung wrote:
Been playing a while but PvP is still an area of game I suck at and no little about.

OK, stop even thinking about faction frigates let alone pirate ones.
Looks like you're to be (one of) the tackler of the gang, so buy 20 Slashers or Condors and play with them until you have some experience. Once you get good at that you can go up to an interceptor to get longer range point, MWD bonus, more speed etc. Or an AF to be a heavy tackler, to hold them down for longer while your mates arrive.

THEN and only then should you fly expensive faction frigates. Dramiel really is not intended for what you want to use it for. It is mostly a skirmisher to hit and run straggling frigs. If you're a tackler for a 5-10 man gang then a Slasher does that job perfectly well and a lot cheaper.


I would only change Charles' note above by saying lose a minimum of 50 Slashers, Executioners and Atrons (Condors kinda suck). Once you get good with tthem then get you a Taranis. Its a fantastic little boat.

I agree though the Slasher is a really good interceptor style T1 frigate right now.


I would only alter this to say go with a MINIMUM of 170 Slashers, Executioners, and Atrons.

Just to be, you know, sure.



I would only alter this to say go with a MINIMUM of 1700 Slashers, Executioners, and Atrons.

Just to be, you know, sure.


At this point dramiels would be more appropriate given time and money concerns.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-09-26 18:31:26 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Condors most certainly don't suck, I've taken to using them for generaly flying around.

It's no Slicer or Dram, but its not bad.


I love Condors as cheap speed-tank rocket boats. I use them for L1 missions all the time. They're almost disposable, yet give good performance even with T1/Meta fittings.
Escobar Noreaga
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-09-26 23:02:58 UTC
join RvB (Red verses Blue) and practice with a bunch of T1 frigs, its not a bad experience.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#17 - 2012-09-29 09:59:59 UTC
Dramiel is trash. People who fly it make me happy :) Good KB stats when a your t1 frig trashes it.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#18 - 2012-09-29 18:57:49 UTC
Long point (disruptor) is for catching, scram is for holding.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.