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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2741 - 2012-09-24 11:06:32 UTC
Kara Vix wrote:
I have spent alot of time training for a max skilled Nighthawk, perhaps not the best ship in the game but my favorite nonetheless. I have both an active and passive tanked one for various things. The dps on them have always been low compared to the other ships I fly (Amarr-Minmatar-Caldari cross trained). I think its a slap in the face to Caldari pilots to nerf the weapons system without balancing the ship at the same time. So now I am stuck with a ship that is skill point intensive that won't be able to fight its way out of a paper bag. This ship has always needed more dps, not less, why is it so hard to balance all the ships effected by the missile change at the same time?

that is actually a pretty good idea. if you really have to tinker with heavy missiles, at least take a look at the half-dozen ships that use them as main weapon system so that those who are flying them don't get shafted for half a year or more.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#2742 - 2012-09-24 11:19:49 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
How people got into their heads that the HML changes are part of a plot to neuter the Tengu and Drake is beyond me, they will get what is coming to them but that discussion hasn't even begun yet Twisted


Probably because they're the only ships to fit them on pilots >= 3 months old ;)

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Two most glaring examples and Ytterbium♥Fozzie are not done yet:
I for one would hate to have the new Caracal running around with a RoF bonus (ie. Kinetic is dropped!!!!!) and range bonus.
I for one would hate to have the new Bellicose running around with a RoF and TP bonus.
Now add potential changes to the BCs, HACs, Recons et al.

PS: If you want an idea of what a an actual Drake nerf will look like then take a gander at what is happening to the Hurricane. Pilot is being given a very real, even harsh, choice to make when fitting it. No longer shall it be able to tick all the relevant boxes (dps/tank/ewar/capwar) without severe compromises (at least that is my hope, not sure proposed grid redux is enough Smile).





Indeed, and maybe they are not done...however they asked for feedback and we can only feedback based on current info and that currently shows whilst this change reigns in the drake/tengu it leaves most of the other (heavy) missile boats flapping in the breeze.

As many have pointed out - if the weapon system is that good, why are the only two contenders drakes/tengu? That doesnt add up in isolation, suggesting there is more to this equation.

Not every hull that uses heavies sucks completely either, Rooks are pretty serviceable but again, there's no mass proliferation of them.

And for balance/objectivity....my HML skill is....3 :D
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#2743 - 2012-09-24 11:30:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I have a few changes to the proposal we're considering and testing internally. Once we get past that stage I'll take them to the CSM, then to you all.


LOL.... This CSM is the most inept and ineffectual one for years, they just agree with anything CCP says. Skip that part and save yourself a bit of time.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#2744 - 2012-09-24 11:38:35 UTC
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
Quote:
720 arty cane with 2gyros and 2 te's has 4 mods for enhanching the weapon.....and even then you ONLY get 291 dps....heated at that....so you waste some slots only to try to get close to drake performance....and still fail at that. Drake gets 484 with furies at that range.


You forget that alpha is very important especially for fleet fights.
Only some days ago I saw some arty Canes alpha an Omen cruiser.
And what you forget: How helpless drakes are against frigs. I doubt there is another bc with exception of a rail ferox that is so helpless against frigs. AC Cane has so good tracking that it eats frigs alive, Arty Cane has only little bigger drone bay but arty alpha strike (which alphas probably more than 50% of most frigs and even destroyers) plus mostly neuts or light missiles to get frigs down. Drake is really helpless against faster frigs when drones are eaten. Almost no other bc has these problems.


I had my suspicions but now I'm sure you are trolling. Drake actually keeps damaging the frigs while no arty cane can actually track a frig under its guns.

Still my beloved arty cane is getting nerfed and I'm still happy because I know that it was too good to have 720's AND a decent tank without any sacrifices. What HM users can't realize is this fact. Heavy missiles were already too good. Time to get in line with other weapons.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#2745 - 2012-09-24 11:48:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Quote:
I had my suspicions but now I'm sure you are trolling. Drake actually keeps damaging the frigs while no arty cane can actually track a frig under its guns.

Still my beloved arty cane is getting nerfed and I'm still happy because I know that it was too good to have 720's AND a decent tank without any sacrifices. What HM users can't realize is this fact. Heavy missiles were already too good. Time to get in line with other weapons.


Rofl.
I have flown drake almost 4 months with another char. HM against faster frigs is almost useless.
Even precision missiles. And it was a relatively high skilled char.
Sorry but if someone trolls then it is you.
Ever tried to get under an arty canes guns? Well try it. Slicers are blown mostly with one alpha. Something a Drake can only dream of.
And inbetween: Drake vs Cane was always the same: At higher ranges cane simply gets away because of higher speed. And at close range I died because I hadn´t any invu fields any more because of neuts.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#2746 - 2012-09-24 11:59:36 UTC
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
Quote:
I had my suspicions but now I'm sure you are trolling. Drake actually keeps damaging the frigs while no arty cane can actually track a frig under its guns.

Still my beloved arty cane is getting nerfed and I'm still happy because I know that it was too good to have 720's AND a decent tank without any sacrifices. What HM users can't realize is this fact. Heavy missiles were already too good. Time to get in line with other weapons.


Rofl.
I have flown drake almost 4 months with another char. HM against faster frigs is almost useless.
Even precision missiles. And it was a relatively high skilled char.
Sorry but if someone trolls then it is you.
Ever tried to get under a canes guns? Well try it. Slicers are blown mostly with one alpha. Something a Drake can only dream of.
And inbetween: Drake vs Cane was always the same: At higher ranges cane simply gets away because of higher speed. And at close range I died because I hadn´t any invu fields any more because of neuts.


...yet you keep comparing the drake with an AC cane, which has NO relevance to this discussion....also using the precissions in their current state shows clearly why you've failed. But rejoice!!!! Precissions are getting buffed too!!!
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#2747 - 2012-09-24 12:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Quote:
..yet you keep comparing the drake with an AC cane, which has NO relevance to this discussion....also using the precissions in their current state shows clearly why you've failed. But rejoice!!!! Precissions are getting buffed too!!!


Already corrected it to arty. Because I remember when we tried to tackle an wt arty cane at a station with some frigs until the bigger ships came.
Don´t remember how many slicers we lost but it were some.


Edit: I am not saying that HMs don´t need a nerf but in comparison to other weapon systems we would need a nerf on Minmatar weapons to get rails and lasers on par with ac, arty and hm.
Arty alpha is tooooo crazy.
At gate camps the guys in Tonados laugh about the guy in the oracle.
And tbh cane REALLY needed this nerf.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2748 - 2012-09-24 12:24:08 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Not every hull that uses heavies sucks completely either, Rooks are pretty serviceable but again, there's no mass proliferation of them.....

WHAT!?! HML on the Rook .. a travesty I say, TRAVESTY!

HAM Brawler Rook every day of the week. Twisted

Feedback is all well and good but one must include all available data, ie. everything included in this balance pass so far. Threads should not be looked at as isolated from each other, the reasons (I suspect) that they are split up to begin with is probably due to being thrown up as preliminary work is completed and to make sifting feedback a bit easier .. imagine if all eleven winter threads and counting were all under one roof Smile

Even so, why is it that most of the complaints about Tengu/Drake being nerfed, in the guise of feedback, does not include the other biggies in this thread: The ability to modify launcher performance with generic weapon upgrade mods and TD's ability to affect same performance?
Gun users have had years (naturally) to get used to thinking of dps application (range/tracking) rather than pure dps, especially when it comes to medium range weaponry, now missile users get to experience the same joy and furrowed brows as everyone else Big smile

On a completely different note: How big is the current SiSi client install?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#2749 - 2012-09-24 12:34:46 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Not every hull that uses heavies sucks completely either, Rooks are pretty serviceable but again, there's no mass proliferation of them.....

WHAT!?! HML on the Rook .. a travesty I say, TRAVESTY!

HAM Brawler Rook every day of the week. Twisted


But...but....HML is super overpowered....right? It's just the rook jocks are gentlemen/ladies who wont use the OP weapon systemP

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Even so, why is it that most of the complaints about Tengu/Drake being nerfed, in the guise of feedback, does not include the other biggies in this thread: The ability to modify launcher performance with generic weapon upgrade mods and TD's ability to affect same performance?


I already called the SNI will become a (PvE) monster with these changes Cool

'Phoon has a lot of potential nastiness too.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2750 - 2012-09-24 13:06:10 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

I already called the SNI will become a (PvE) monster with these changes Cool


I doubt about SNI. It has good tank, but don't have nor range bonuses for torps neither enough launcher slots to make bearable dps with Cruieses. CNR and Golem on the other hand have potential for it.
Eckyy
United Caldari Navy
United Caldari Space Command.
#2751 - 2012-09-24 13:47:05 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
People here either don't know a crap about what they are talking about or are completely dishonnest.

Some things to know :
- HML will only be hit by a SLIGHT nerf for their intended purpose ;
- HML are LONG RANGE weapons, they should be balanced around LONG RANGE weapons ;
- ALL other missiles will get a BUFF due to TE/TC and T2 missiles buff.
- Caracal will be BETTER.

Tank/dps are not the only caracteristics of a ship...


This man gets it.

New HAM Caracal:
+2 lows
+ fitting
+ drone bay (?)
+ RoF bonus (much better than +kin)
+HP
+speed/agility
+effect of TC/TE

How is it worse?

I still believe heavies will be useless on unbonused ships though.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#2752 - 2012-09-24 13:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

I already called the SNI will become a (PvE) monster with these changes Cool


I doubt about SNI. It has good tank, but don't have nor range bonuses for torps neither enough launcher slots to make bearable dps with Cruieses. CNR and Golem on the other hand have potential for it.


It's got spare mid slots though, and we're getting a mid mounted set of missile DPS increasing mods. Real world (i.e. not paper) damage application should lift significantly.



Edit:

@Eckyy: I believe (caveat: I took it at face value) that even throwing an extra BCU on a new caracal using the spare slot, it'll still do less DPS at less range than the old one did. Which no-one flies. Because it's weaksauce.

Quite why there'd be a resurgence to fly a boat that does even less DPS is unclear to me.


Edit 2: Relevant comment, floating around pages 66-69ish:

fakequote wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Current dual-BCS Caracal: 263 DPS kinetic, 210 non-kinetic, with CN to 120 km, 8.4 km/s missiles.
Future triple-BCS Caracal: 252 DPS all damage types with CN to 90 km, 9 km/s missiles.



And that's before the TDs become ubiqitous...
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#2753 - 2012-09-24 14:17:53 UTC
The HML caracal will be mediocre. The HAM caracal has very nice dps but looks too flimsy for my liking. The RLML caracal is going to be pretty awesome, not just for killing unwary frigates but as a general purpose combat cruiser.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2754 - 2012-09-24 14:19:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Eckyy wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
People here either don't know a crap about what they are talking about or are completely dishonnest.

Some things to know :
- HML will only be hit by a SLIGHT nerf for their intended purpose ;
- HML are LONG RANGE weapons, they should be balanced around LONG RANGE weapons ;
- ALL other missiles will get a BUFF due to TE/TC and T2 missiles buff.
- Caracal will be BETTER.

Tank/dps are not the only caracteristics of a ship...


This man gets it.

New HAM Caracal:
+2 lows
+ fitting
+ drone bay (?)
+ RoF bonus (much better than +kin)
+HP
+speed/agility
+effect of TC/TE

How is it worse?

I still believe heavies will be useless on unbonused ships though.


5 T2 hams PG 630, thats the entire pg of a caracal.

sure skills can lower that.

then again you need to it propulsion mods to dictate range T2 10mn MWD 165 pg

Large shield extender II 165 PG


so unbonesed fit having a pg gap of 330 PG, with 1 Large extender and a MDW.


Drone bay is the same as before the reballance

All cruisers got extra hp and speed/agillaty.

use TC/TE canceled out with TD.

So Ham caracal still fitting horror, HML Drake hardly any change as to what it was. valuable option Rapid light missile launcher, good nice frigate killer with little use outside FW
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2755 - 2012-09-24 14:23:54 UTC
Quote:
If heavy missiles are as overpowered as is to be believed (and don't mistake me, they could well be) the fact that they're only workable on two (thoroughly dubious for other reasons) hulls tells you just how poor all the other hulls available are. Not even a 'massively overpowered' weapon system is enough to pull the other ships up to par.

Balance is good, but do it properly!
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2756 - 2012-09-24 14:29:22 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
People here either don't know a crap about what they are talking about or are completely dishonnest.

Some things to know :
- HML will only be hit by a SLIGHT nerf for their intended purpose ;
- HML are LONG RANGE weapons, they should be balanced around LONG RANGE weapons ;
- ALL other missiles will get a BUFF due to TE/TC and T2 missiles buff.
- Caracal will be BETTER.

Tank/dps are not the only caracteristics of a ship...



actually, the changes willbe good for precision cruise missiles cause they'll have higher damage. smaller exp radius, and faster exp velocity, but a slight range nerf.

Now, while fury is getting a damage buff, it's also getting a exp radius nerf, which is bad for cruise missiles cause they already suck even against bs's.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2757 - 2012-09-24 14:29:35 UTC
There is a very good chance that HAMs and HMLs swap fitting requirements or that HAMs in the very least get some much needed lube love in that department. Think it and torps are the only short range systems that has higher requirements than their long range counterparts.

Dust hasn't settled, not by a long shot, and Ytterbium♥Fozzie are busy, busy, busy crunching numbers and reading forum drivel
Eckyy
United Caldari Navy
United Caldari Space Command.
#2758 - 2012-09-24 14:57:30 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
5 T2 hams PG 630, thats the entire pg of a caracal.

sure skills can lower that.

then again you need to it propulsion mods to dictate range T2 10mn MWD 165 pg

Large shield extender II 165 PG


so unbonesed fit having a pg gap of 330 PG, with 1 Large extender and a MDW.


Drone bay is the same as before the reballance

All cruisers got extra hp and speed/agillaty.

use TC/TE canceled out with TD.

So Ham caracal still fitting horror, HML Drake hardly any change as to what it was. valuable option Rapid light missile launcher, good nice frigate killer with little use outside FW


Skills are important yo. It fits.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#2759 - 2012-09-24 14:59:37 UTC
Deerin wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:


You have to be careful before casually accepting someone elses numbers in this thread.

The 720 arty cane, with 2 gyros and 2 TEs in the lows, will do 291 dps (heated) with a 70km optimal (+ 36km falloff) firing Tremor. The reason his numbers are different is that he accidentally left off the TEs. You see these same accidents with a lot of the numbers people are throwing around.



720 arty cane with 2gyros and 2 te's has 4 mods for enhanching the weapon.....and even then you ONLY get 291 dps....heated at that....so you waste some slots only to try to get close to drake performance....and still fail at that. Drake gets 484 with furies at that range.


Yes, but you need to include those mods as that is what the ship is going to have. The arty cane is my preferred BC (though I generally use 650's). Amazingly, despite all the things I hear people saying in this thread, I don't feel like I am gimped when flying against Drakes. If I did I would grab a Drake. I am aware that a Drake, at RANGE, is something I simply cannot run down and kill.

Versus the typical dual nano / dual web "crappy" Drake, my cane:

* Has about 5K fewer ehp
* Does about 1/3 less dps at range
* Moves about 300 m/sec fast
* Applies damage instantly, anywhere on the field
* Aligns and accelerates much faster
* Can disengage from the battle at will
* Has dual neuts
* Has a clear advantage applying damage to smaller targets

You are arguing that my Cane is somehow disadvantaged. You are indirectly fighting to give me a buff. While I appreciate this, it's unnecessary. I don't think my chosen ship needs to be superior in every situation. And as I said, if I believed that the Drake was anything more than what it is: a nice, balanced ship with a situational advantage, not only would I fly it, but everyone else would fly it by default as well. And finally, on the question of damage at range, as I mentioned in a previous post neither the Drake nor the Cane lead the pack in this regard.

Neither are even close. The new BC's blow them out of the water.

Yet here we are talking about nerfing the only heavy missile ship Caldari pilots have left.
Doddy
Excidium.
#2760 - 2012-09-24 15:08:53 UTC
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
Quote:
I had my suspicions but now I'm sure you are trolling. Drake actually keeps damaging the frigs while no arty cane can actually track a frig under its guns.

Still my beloved arty cane is getting nerfed and I'm still happy because I know that it was too good to have 720's AND a decent tank without any sacrifices. What HM users can't realize is this fact. Heavy missiles were already too good. Time to get in line with other weapons.


Rofl.
I have flown drake almost 4 months with another char. HM against faster frigs is almost useless.
Even precision missiles. And it was a relatively high skilled char.
Sorry but if someone trolls then it is you.
Ever tried to get under an arty canes guns? Well try it. Slicers are blown mostly with one alpha. Something a Drake can only dream of.
And inbetween: Drake vs Cane was always the same: At higher ranges cane simply gets away because of higher speed. And at close range I died because I hadn´t any invu fields any more because of neuts.


Someone doesn't know how to maintain transversal..... They also didn't notice that prescision missiles are getting a big buff (comparitively, they are broken atm) and will no longer be useless. Artycane alpha has only ever been useful against frigs when the frig is at low speed, such as when first landing or decloaking after jumping through a gate. This necessatises fitting all meds and often rigs for scan res (the instacane) so you can get a shot off before the frig gets up to speed (or warps of in case of bomber runs) leaving the ship completely tankless. So yes an arty cane can instakill frigs in a specific situation when it sacrifices all of its tank to the point it can easily be solo'd by said frig if it gets under its guns.

And why would anyone be fighting at higher ranges without tackling support? Its idiotic. No-one should be using long range weapon systems for solo stuff as they have to waste their range advantage to get an enemy tackled (there are exceptions like bubble traps).

All long range weapons and sometime close range weapons are generally useless against a tackler who is on position and up to speed, this is how the game works. The fact the missile user will be able to add a little (ok very little vs intys) dps to help is drones is in fact an advantage.