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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

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I'm Down
Perkone
Caldari State
#521 - 2012-09-23 18:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
While this is good for anti Carrier ratting, this seems like a huge issue for ships like the Dominix, Ishtar, Gila, etc to rat. It makes NPC drone boats take a huge hit with no real options left but to train another ship. Are you comfortable making drone boats exclusively PVP?

Would it not be reasonable to ask for cheap t2 drone builds and larger drone bays as a result of this change?
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#522 - 2012-09-23 18:56:35 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

- Drake can get rid of web/scram via Missiles but it's gonna hurt DPS
- CNR, SNI, Machariel,Nightmare and Marauders situationally DEPEND on their light drones to remove web/scram frigs

If light drones are shot down those ships will be screwed.


So don't let them being shot down?

I said that drones shouldn't be affected by pve webs, which is the biggest problem here.
Light drones have small enough sig meaning they won't be targeted by all rats ( target switching depends on signature radius ).
Additionally they are very fast so if they won't be affected by webs ( something I pointed out several time already ) you won't have any problems keeping them alive.

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

- Sentry Dominix and Rattlesnake will be able to deal but the constant scooping and launching will hurt DPS
- AFK Dominix with reppers might actually be the ship best suited for dealing with aggro switching - depending on the amount of threat generated by the reps


Sentries shouldn't be targeted by battleships because of sig radius difference when using battleship. Additionally they are very sturdy so even in case of aggro switch you won't have to recall them that often and you can easily spare one remote rep for them on those ships.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#523 - 2012-09-23 18:57:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tomcio FromFarAway
derp
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#524 - 2012-09-23 19:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:


So don't let them being shot down?

I said that drones shouldn't be affected by pve webs, which is the biggest problem here.
Light drones have small enough sig meaning they won't be targeted by all rats ( target switching depends on signature radius ).
Additionally they are very fast so if they won't be affected by webs ( something I pointed out several time already ) you won't have any problems keeping them alive.


Well, they ARE affected by webs right now. So far there is no indication that this will change, no matter how much you wish for it.

Also the difference in sig between your BS and your drones should cause every single frig to shift to your drones and let me tell you that light drones don't take easily to being targeted by multiple frigs. There will be nothing left to recover once you notice the aggro.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#525 - 2012-09-23 19:14:46 UTC
I'm glad I trained away from Drone ratting, since this update will put a permanent end to using Drones as a primary combat method in PVE. Or even a secondary combat method, outside of launching them for a poor man's form of ECM or something.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#526 - 2012-09-23 20:21:30 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:


So don't let them being shot down?

I said that drones shouldn't be affected by pve webs, which is the biggest problem here.
Light drones have small enough sig meaning they won't be targeted by all rats ( target switching depends on signature radius ).
Additionally they are very fast so if they won't be affected by webs ( something I pointed out several time already ) you won't have any problems keeping them alive.


Well, they ARE affected by webs right now. So far there is no indication that this will change, no matter how much you wish for it.

Also the difference in sig between your BS and your drones should cause every single frig to shift to your drones and let me tell you that light drones don't take easily to being targeted by multiple frigs. There will be nothing left to recover once you notice the aggro.


Webs are the only problem and I pointed it out several times before. They cannot affect drones to make it work. That is the *only* problem.

Test server is accessible to anyone.
Maybe you should try to actually see how it works by yourself. I did and it's not as bad as people claim. I cleared Sanctum and my drones were aggroed only several times by several rats. Most rats ignored them all together. Had to recall my light drones only 3 times. Also - most frigs ignore drones and focus on your ship instead. Cruisers, Battlecruisers and Battleships never switched to drones.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#527 - 2012-09-23 20:35:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Webs are the only problem and I pointed it out several times before. They cannot affect drones to make it work. That is the *only* problem.


Pity they're going to make this change, without your change?

The fact that drones ARE affected by webs today means they will be affected once this change goes into affect.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#528 - 2012-09-23 21:45:26 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
While this is good for anti Carrier ratting, this seems like a huge issue for ships like the Dominix, Ishtar, Gila, etc to rat. It makes NPC drone boats take a huge hit with no real options left but to train another ship. Are you comfortable making drone boats exclusively PVP?

Would it not be reasonable to ask for cheap t2 drone builds and larger drone bays as a result of this change?


I agree. If our Drones are to be considered expendable, then we need to see at the very least the ability to carry spares. I rat in deep Nullsec, it is not exactly easy to replace a Garde 2 that gets popped.

In addition, I really wouldn't mind some feedback in the UI saying "hey ya dumb Goon, yer drones are getting pegged." Just as an off the cuff example, drones could get their own version of yellow and red boxes for targeting and lock, perhaps via a highlight in the drone UI menu. Drones that are hitting armor or hull could cause some form of audio feedback (beeping) or flash the UI or something.

Heck, here's another good question -- my drones have a good enough AI to work together and defend me and other targets. Why can't they auto-dock if they're in armor taking damage?

I'm not opposed to this change. I just wish a drone combat revamp had happened before it. Having ratted for the past few years in Gallente ships, culminating in a Sentry Ishtar (and recently having moved to a Talos for more interactive combat), I saw first hand the deficiency in drone ratting.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#529 - 2012-09-23 22:18:52 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Louis deGuerre wrote:
BRAIIIIIIINNNNNS BRAIIIINNNNSSSS

This is going to be soooooo much fun. I can already taste the sea of tears Pirate


A sea of tears over this... you should have seen what else we wanted the NPC to do. Pirate


Man, you really hate high sec, don't you?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#530 - 2012-09-23 22:19:59 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Louis deGuerre wrote:
BRAIIIIIIINNNNNS BRAIIIINNNNSSSS

This is going to be soooooo much fun. I can already taste the sea of tears Pirate


A sea of tears over this... you should have seen what else we wanted the NPC to do. Pirate


Man, you really hate high sec, don't you?

This just in: NPC is only in hisec.

The more you know.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#531 - 2012-09-23 22:27:49 UTC
Adigard wrote:

The fact that drones ARE affected by webs today means they will be affected once this change goes into affect.


And what makes you think that?

Maybe if you did what I suggested and tried that on the test server and then provided some actual feedback not typical whining you could actually make them see that there is a problem ( real not theoretical ).

Of course whining is easier, no effort required.Roll
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#532 - 2012-09-23 22:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Adigard wrote:

The fact that drones ARE affected by webs today means they will be affected once this change goes into affect.


And what makes you think that?


I'm sorry, what makes you think the Dev's are going to magically decide that drones are immune to EWar?

Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Maybe if you did what I suggested and tried that on the test server and then provided some actual feedback not typical whining you could actually make them see that there is a problem ( real not theoretical ).


Perhaps your reading skills are sub-par, or perhaps you've simply decided to reply to the wrong s**tpoaster here...

I'm not whining, forecasting doom n' gloom, cancelling my 27 accounts, nor threatening to firebomb the CCP offices. I'm stating that the list of unintended consequences for this minor change far out-weigh the stated benefits (which honestly weren't very clearly stated beyond:

"to try and close some exploits, to attempt to make the PvE more engaging, and more."

it's fairly obvious to anyone who's ever seen an AFK-Domi fit this won't do a thing to that 'exploit', although it certainly will put a dampener on the FW 2x frigate thing... but that 'fix' could be fixed in much more elegant and FW-related ways (and is already being nerfed elsewhere)..

Adding the need to micro-manage a poorly designed and woefully out-of-date Drone AI doth not equate to more engaging PvE (except in the 'damn, this crap was boring before, now I have to pay even more attention' way... it's certainly that, and that's one definition).
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#533 - 2012-09-23 23:15:11 UTC
Question. If we're "Fixing" systems in EVE that are boring and AFK friendly...

When the hell is the anti-AFK mining fix coming?
Lili Lu
#534 - 2012-09-23 23:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
MisterNick wrote:
Yeah, everyone knows the uncontrollable nature of drones is part of their charm. They're like dogs - adorable and generally can be trained, but will occasionally go mental and do whatever the hell they want.

actually they are piloted by cats. cats i tell you Shocked


Anyway, on the deve blog, hmmm, will have to wait for testing to really know how this will pan out, but on a quick read of the blog and the replies in the thread, I have to say:

Welp, didn't want those drones and drone boats anyway.P



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1932514#post1932514

While you're adjusting the drone hate and attempting to get it right, when you get it right, import it to wormholes. I never bothered to live there even though I wanted to because it is shield tanked heavy missile boat heaven and certainly hell for any drone boat. Maybe between that and the heavy missile nerf other ships will gain in viability.

And, I agree with Yaay that you may have to reconsider upping the size of drone bays to allow for more spares on just about every ship (if you don't get it right). OTOH looking to buy stock in drone production ventures Smile
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#535 - 2012-09-23 23:25:35 UTC
Adigard wrote:

I'm not whining, forecasting doom n' gloom, cancelling my 27 accounts, nor threatening to firebomb the CCP offices. I'm stating that the list of unintended consequences for this minor change far out-weigh the stated benefits (which honestly weren't very clearly stated beyond:

"to try and close some exploits, to attempt to make the PvE more engaging, and more."


Bingo

And that's all it's really about. I'm all for more engaging pve (I fly with several different incursion"communities" for just his reason, and have toon in a wormhole corp as well).

But this change is (potentially) ill concieved because it's so "across the board" which is why I and others have pointed out the possibilty of the change breaking high-end exploration content.

Can't say it enough, people like me aren't against change, what you are seeing in this tread isn't some kind of knee-jerk "OMG I don't like change" reaction, it's actual deeply considered concern that CCP will YET AGAIN screw up something (for the best of intentions) where a little more cautious approach would be more appropriate.

Quote:

it's fairly obvious to anyone who's ever seen an AFK-Domi fit this won't do a thing to that 'exploit', although it certainly will put a dampener on the FW 2x frigate thing... but that 'fix' could be fixed in much more elegant and FW-related ways (and is already being nerfed elsewhere)..

Adding the need to micro-manage a poorly designed and woefully out-of-date Drone AI doth not equate to more engaging PvE (except in the 'damn, this crap was boring before, now I have to pay even more attention' way... it's certainly that, and that's one definition).


Bingo X 2. One of the main things I do is rat anomalies in null sec upgraded systems with my Machariel, the idea that anyone coming after me in those anos had better be in a battleship themselves else they face a high risk of rat aggro is really funny to me, because in intending to make PVE more "engaging" they would just end up protecting "null-bearS" like me FROM pvp lol. At the same time they make drone management even more of a massive pain in the arse than it already is while NOT really affecting afk mission runners one bit.........

don't just change things for the sake of change CCP, make meaningful change that is well thought out and effective, or don't do anything at all.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#536 - 2012-09-23 23:51:18 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Simon Severasse wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Simon Severasse wrote:
Does the "attack ships of the same size as the NPC" apply to wh too?


No, I did not touch the sleepers. While it is true sleepers have the Level One AI, they have a version of it without any customization. The customization was added when we introduced Incursions.


Thank you FoxFour. Big smile


You can thank all of team Five 0 for this. We all worked hard on it.


You worked really hard...on this?
To destroy yet another high sec income stream?

Wow, just wow.

How about this: You implement the Sleeper quality AI into missions, but at only when you alter moon mining.
That should be when, never?
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#537 - 2012-09-23 23:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Oliver
Posting to show support for any challenge CCP adds to spice up boring PVE.

Thank you team Five 0, your work is very much appreciated! Cool
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#538 - 2012-09-24 00:20:13 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
Posting to show support for any challenge CCP adds to spice up boring PVE.

Thank you team Five 0, your work is very much appreciated! Cool


You mean posting as a null sec zealot who does not do any PvE and wants to destroy it for everyone who does.

Oh, and I can only imagine the null sec zealot propaganda teams gearing up in the Sisi threads telling CCP how wonderful the changes are, and if anything drones should get more attention from the AI, not less.

There will be hundreds or null players posting with alts saying how wonderful this is.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2012-09-24 00:22:02 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Paul Oliver wrote:
Posting to show support for any challenge CCP adds to spice up boring PVE.

Thank you team Five 0, your work is very much appreciated! Cool


You mean posting as a null sec zealot who does not do any PvE and wants to destroy it for everyone who does.

Oh, and I can only imagine the null sec zealot propaganda teams gearing up in the Sisi threads telling CCP how wonderful the changes are, and if anything drones should get more attention from the AI, not less.

There will be hundreds or null players posting with alts saying how wonderful this is.

Stop being a dramaqueen.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#540 - 2012-09-24 00:28:17 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
null sec zealot who does not do any PvE


citation needed

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar