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Feedback on Lvl 4 Maelstrom build, and advice for the future
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Kael StarFly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-09-20 20:12:15 UTC
Hey folks,

I recently returned to the game after an extended absence. Before I left I was primarily running lvl 4 missions in high sec. Now that I'm back I'm interested in pushing more into low and null sec to expand my EVE horizons, but before I do I'd like to get settled back into running lvl 4 missions in order to have a steady source of income.

I'm currently using a Maelstrom configured as an active shield tank, and here are my questions:

1. Does anyone have any advice for improving my Maelstrom build? Preferably so I can tank longer and harder without having to warp out? (Currently I can last for about 5 minutes with everything running, but very few missions require constantly running the booster).

2. What's a good next step to move into after mission running? I'm looking for something that generates decent isk and is more exciting than mission running. Exploration looks fun, is that a viable option?

3. What's a good next ship to plan on getting into for mission running and/or exploration? I almost have the skills to fly a Mach, but I'm not sure that I want to bring a billion ISK ship into low sec just yet. If I wanted to run missions and/or explore in low sec, what would be a good Minmatar ship to train into?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!
Alara IonStorm
#2 - 2012-09-20 20:41:58 UTC
Well you should not be over PG at all and even with low skill CPU should not be a serious issue yet your fit has an ACR and Overclock.

My suggestion would be remove all three rigs for CCC Rigs, that right there will give you a big performance bump in staying power.

Secondly make sure these become a priority if you don't have them. Min BS IV, Large Projectile IV, Rapid Firing IV, Surgical Strike IV and Trajectory Analysis IV, once you have those start taking them to V lowest SP amount first or by T2 Weapons System.

Last thought, pack Hobgoblins for Frigs instead of the painter drones, having them kill off Frig Swarms which combine to do a lot of Dmg while your guns smoke Cruisers and Battlecruisers is a good thing for getting DPS off you.

Can't say I much liked the Mael when I flew it but I flew it with that fit with the rigs changed.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#3 - 2012-09-20 21:04:06 UTC
I'd recommend sticking with high sec for missions for a while yet and working on bringing your support skills up a bit. The biggest deficiency of AC Maels in missions is range... you'll want to work toward T2 guns ASAP so you have the option to use Barrage on the ships that just don't want to come in close.

Personally, I don't use a prop mod on missioning BSes unless I'm doing a mission that requires a lot of traveling to gates, but that's personal preference. You could swap it for a range-scripted TC. When your skills are up a bit and you learn what to expect from specific missions, you can start thinking about dropping the cap booster for certain missions. I always found toting around the charges to be annoying.

The Machariel or Vargur are the logical next steps, though the latter is not at all easy on the skills.

Exploration is always an option, though in highsec it tends to be pretty competitive. At any rate, the ship choice is completely different for that. Incursions might be a better next step if you like the battleship hulls.

But regardless... skills skills skills!
Kael StarFly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-09-20 21:49:47 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Well you should not be over PG at all and even with low skill CPU should not be a serious issue yet your fit has an ACR and Overclock.

My suggestion would be remove all three rigs for CCC Rigs, that right there will give you a big performance bump in staying power.

Secondly make sure these become a priority if you don't have them. Min BS IV, Large Projectile IV, Rapid Firing IV, Surgical Strike IV and Trajectory Analysis IV, once you have those start taking them to V lowest SP amount first or by T2 Weapons System.

Last thought, pack Hobgoblins for Frigs instead of the painter drones, having them kill off Frig Swarms which combine to do a lot of Dmg while your guns smoke Cruisers and Battlecruisers is a good thing for getting DPS off you.

Can't say I much liked the Mael when I flew it but I flew it with that fit with the rigs changed.


Thanks for all the advice! I had the PG on initially because I needed it when I swapped from AC to Arty, but I don't think I need that anymore so I'll look into swapping up my rigs tonight. Frigates are a problem for me so I'll try moving to Hobgoblins and see if they go down faster.

Zor'katar wrote:
I'd recommend sticking with high sec for missions for a while yet and working on bringing your support skills up a bit. The biggest deficiency of AC Maels in missions is range... you'll want to work toward T2 guns ASAP so you have the option to use Barrage on the ships that just don't want to come in close.

Personally, I don't use a prop mod on missioning BSes unless I'm doing a mission that requires a lot of traveling to gates, but that's personal preference. You could swap it for a range-scripted TC. When your skills are up a bit and you learn what to expect from specific missions, you can start thinking about dropping the cap booster for certain missions. I always found toting around the charges to be annoying.

The Machariel or Vargur are the logical next steps, though the latter is not at all easy on the skills.

Exploration is always an option, though in highsec it tends to be pretty competitive. At any rate, the ship choice is completely different for that. Incursions might be a better next step if you like the battleship hulls.

But regardless... skills skills skills!


Thanks to you as well. I used to run missions in Bawilan (sp?), and that sent me to 0.4 space quite a bit. Back when I used to play it was never a problem. I only had someone show up once and they weren't a problem. It looks like things are more hot in that system now, though. On my first mission out two nights ago I lost my Maelstrom to a stupid frig that I couldn't hit lol. That caused me to A) move to a high sec system until I get my wings under me, and B) join OUCH so I can learn more about surviving in low sec. I still don't have a desire to move out there permanently for a while, though.

Unfortunately I'm 52 days away from T2 guns, but I just took your advice and queued up training for them. I have all (or most) of my other critical combat skills at IV or V, so I think it's time to go for T2 guns. Hopefully that will let me put away the Arty for good.
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-09-21 03:03:20 UTC
Try remapping your attributes for max Perception(primary) and WIllpower(secondary). It'll reduce your training time for Gunnery and Spaceship Command skills. A set of +4 implants would help as well in case you haven't plugged any in.

Maelstroms and most Minmatar ships require a LOT of training to fly right, but once you get there, that ship becomes quite the beast especially with BS at 5.
Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
#6 - 2012-09-21 04:06:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Magnum
Personally I go for three gyrostabs and two tracking enhancers. I rarely equip a speed mod. I also disagree with the X-LSB Maelstrom setup, even though it's the most popular. I use an LSB and two boost amplifiers, which can be perma-ran, but if you don't have Matar BS 5 it's probably not worth it.

On your setup with your skills I'd switch a tracking enhancer for a third gyrostab, and switch the afterburner for a shield boost amplifier. Three hardeners should easily be enough. I only use two for most missions.

Maelstrom is one of the more user-friendly battleships for level 4 missions. The combination of shield and RoF boosts per skill level is quite useful for PvE, and the capacitor and cpu/grid are really robust. It's definitely easier to use than the Apoc or Geddon, and you can mow down small targets way better than a Raven.

                      "LIVE FAST DIE." - traditional Minmatar ethos [citation needed]
DerArt1st
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-09-21 07:32:07 UTC
Save a bit money for a "Caldari Navy X-Large Shieldbooster" + "Caldari Navy Shieldboost Amplifier". They will give you more tank and save a lot cpu at the same time. I think my LVL4 Maelstrom looked like that:

Lows:

3 Gyrostabilizer
2 Tracking Enhancer

Meds:

Caldari Navy X-Large Shieldbooster
Caldari Navy Shieldboost Amplifier
100 MN Afterburner
Heavy Capacitor Booster (800'er Cap charges)
2 Mission specific hardener

Highs:

8 x 800mm Autocannons

3 Capacitor Recharge rigs.

5 x Hobgoblin II, 5 Warrior II, 5 Small Webdrones(to hit those nifty cruisers)
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-09-21 09:31:13 UTC
Two other things:

1) Make sure you've got Shield Management V - not only does it give you a shield capacity boost to 10,000 raw HP, but it also opens up Tech II shield boost amps, which will allow for massive bursts of shield repair with an XL booster. If you're in a mission that doesn't require a lot of movement and will throw tons of damage at you, you can couple those with four hardeners and you'll find the Maelstrom is a fortress.

2) Take Advanced Weapon Upgrades to IV. That will give you enough powergrid room to fit meta 1400's and an XL shield booster (though CPU will be really tight).

Ultimately, I know people say to use a Machariel or a Vargur, but let's face it: the Machariel is sort of the EVE equivalent of a Lamborghini - sexy, fast, powerful, and expensive as all hell. And the Vargur's just as expensive, plus its training time is on the far side of insane: the Marauders skillbook's prerequisites are Spaceship Command V, Energy Grid Upgrades V, and Advanced Weapon Upgrades V, which will take you a month or more even if you've got all three of those skills at IV, and then you need to train Minmatar Battleship V, which is another month on its own from IV.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Kael StarFly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-09-21 17:43:53 UTC
Hakaimono wrote:
Try remapping your attributes for max Perception(primary) and WIllpower(secondary). It'll reduce your training time for Gunnery and Spaceship Command skills. A set of +4 implants would help as well in case you haven't plugged any in.


Thanks Hakaimono, I'm going to review my implants today. I think they're all +3, but I'm going to train Cybernetics IV so I can get +4s. I'm not sure what I'm using for skill implants.

Dirk Magnum wrote:
Personally I go for three gyrostabs and two tracking enhancers. I rarely equip a speed mod. I also disagree with the X-LSB Maelstrom setup, even though it's the most popular. I use an LSB and two boost amplifiers, which can be perma-ran, but if you don't have Matar BS 5 it's probably not worth it.

On your setup with your skills I'd switch a tracking enhancer for a third gyrostab, and switch the afterburner for a shield boost amplifier. Three hardeners should easily be enough. I only use two for most missions.

Maelstrom is one of the more user-friendly battleships for level 4 missions. The combination of shield and RoF boosts per skill level is quite useful for PvE, and the capacitor and cpu/grid are really robust. It's definitely easier to use than the Apoc or Geddon, and you can mow down small targets way better than a Raven.


I actually modified the build to be more in line with what you and DerArt1st suggested, and it seems to be working pretty well. (The 5 small web drones was a good idea, I'm going to try replacing my one heavy webber with 5 small and see how it works). I keep notes on each mission and I swap stuff out as needed. If I need a bit more range then I go with 3 tracking enhancers, otherwise I go with 3 gyros, etc. Same for AB and booster. They can be swapped out for hardeners as needed.

I do like the Maelstrom, but the main problem that I have is my tank and my speed. The Maelstrom is just slow so there's not a lot I can do about that, but I'm trying to figure out ways to improve my tank. I just did Worlds Collide and Vengeance with only one warp out in each mission, which is a LOT better than I was doing before, but things still get pretty dicey and my DPS seems low. I see people talking about clearing those missions in 15 minutes, and for me it takes about an hour. Just gotta keep plugging away on skills I guess!

Marc Callan wrote:
Two other things:

1) Make sure you've got Shield Management V - not only does it give you a shield capacity boost to 10,000 raw HP, but it also opens up Tech II shield boost amps, which will allow for massive bursts of shield repair with an XL booster. If you're in a mission that doesn't require a lot of movement and will throw tons of damage at you, you can couple those with four hardeners and you'll find the Maelstrom is a fortress.

2) Take Advanced Weapon Upgrades to IV. That will give you enough powergrid room to fit meta 1400's and an XL shield booster (though CPU will be really tight).

Ultimately, I know people say to use a Machariel or a Vargur, but let's face it: the Machariel is sort of the EVE equivalent of a Lamborghini - sexy, fast, powerful, and expensive as all hell. And the Vargur's just as expensive, plus its training time is on the far side of insane: the Marauders skillbook's prerequisites are Spaceship Command V, Energy Grid Upgrades V, and Advanced Weapon Upgrades V, which will take you a month or more even if you've got all three of those skills at IV, and then you need to train Minmatar Battleship V, which is another month on its own from IV.


I just looked up the Vargur in EVEMon and I see what you mean. I'm 72 days away from being able to fly one. I'm only 4 days away from being able to fly a Mach, though, so I think that will be my next upgrade. I'm about 500 million ISK short of one, but I usually clear 10-40 million ISK per mission with bounties and salvage, so I just have to keep plugging away at it. I've been playing around with Mach builds in EFT and it looks like I can get a lot more dps and about twice the speed without sacrificing anything. It makes me drool ^_^.

You're right about the Maelstrom being a great ship, though. I think I just need to focus on increasing gunnery and tanking skills so I can kill faster and tank longer. My main problem right now is that I just get overwhelmed (even when being careful to not agro an entire room) and have to warp out.

Thanks to everyone for the great advice, keep it coming! Everyone's been very helpful both here and on BattleClinic. I remember before I left I took on Worlds Collide and a day off and it literally took me all day. I just wouldn't quit lol, but I had to warp out over and over. Last night I did it in about 1.5 hours with 1 warp out thanks to advice here and on BattleClinic!
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-09-21 20:33:59 UTC
the only bad thing about the machariel is the degenerated extra turbine on its back.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Alara IonStorm
#11 - 2012-09-21 21:06:39 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
the only bad thing about the machariel is the degenerated extra turbine on its back.

That isn't a turbine, that is the Awesome Overflow Tank that stores all of the extra Awesome.

Without it the Ship would explode.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-09-21 21:13:19 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
the only bad thing about the machariel is the degenerated extra turbine on its back.

That isn't a turbine, that is the Awesome Overflow Tank that stores all of the extra Awesome.

Without it the Ship would explode.

ok fine, can we get a second one on the other side so that i have somewhere to put my own Awesome?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Alara IonStorm
#13 - 2012-09-21 21:34:41 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:

That isn't a turbine, that is the Awesome Overflow Tank that stores all of the extra Awesome.

Without it the Ship would explode.

ok fine, can we get a second one on the other side so that i have somewhere to put my own Awesome?

I'm sorry but CCP is perfectly fine with you exploding.
Zindela
Aegeonix Systems
#14 - 2012-09-21 22:35:31 UTC
I actually fly a Maelstrom as my current mission ship. My fit is more or less the following:

Lows:
3 T2 Gyrostabs
2 T2 Tracking Enhancers

Mids:
3 Mission specific Hardeners
1 LARGE T2 Shield Booster
1 shield boost amp
1 cap recharger.

Highs:
full 800mm T2 ACs.

Rigs:
3 CCCs IIRC

Drones:
1 set Hammerhead IIs
1 set Hobgoblin IIs
the extra space is a few Warrior IIs

Overall, it's decent. the ACs wreck everything close, but have a bit more trouble with the further enemies. I have near-perfect shield skills, and I haven't found a mission that can kill me. The cap lasts about 12 minutes with everything running, which is more than enough for me to kill the majority of the incoming DPS. While the tank might be slightly overwhelmed in some areas, it holds enough damage off, and the raw EHP of the shields themselves are more than enough to last me until I kill the incoming DPS.
Kael StarFly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-09-24 00:03:49 UTC
Zindela wrote:
I actually fly a Maelstrom as my current mission ship. My fit is more or less the following:

Lows:
3 T2 Gyrostabs
2 T2 Tracking Enhancers

Mids:
3 Mission specific Hardeners
1 LARGE T2 Shield Booster
1 shield boost amp
1 cap recharger.

Highs:
full 800mm T2 ACs.

Rigs:
3 CCCs IIRC

Drones:
1 set Hammerhead IIs
1 set Hobgoblin IIs
the extra space is a few Warrior IIs


Wow...playing around with using a large shield booster instead of an x-large in EFT...looks like I can get a lot more tank out of it. If I play it right then I can go from emptying my cap in 2 minutes to emptying it in 16 minutes. Definitely gonna try that =D
Alara IonStorm
#16 - 2012-09-24 00:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Kael StarFly wrote:

Wow...playing around with using a large shield booster instead of an x-large in EFT...looks like I can get a lot more tank out of it. If I play it right then I can go from emptying my cap in 2 minutes to emptying it in 16 minutes. Definitely gonna try that =D

You actually get 0 extra tank out of it. The L Shield Booster and the XL Shield Booster both provide the same amount of Shield Points for the same amount of Capacitor spent. The difference is that the XL version just gives it to you faster. Outside of fitting requirements there is no advantage to a L Boost when you run the XL as only needed while the XL has the advantage when enemy DPS gets bigger then the L can handle.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-09-24 13:00:49 UTC
Yeah, the point of the XL booster is that sometimes you'll have more DPS thrown at you than the smaller boosters can handle - in cases like that, you don't need the extra defenses forever, just long enough to cut down the incoming DPS with your own weapons. The sustained numbers may look better with the smaller booster, but there will be times when you need extra shield regen, lots of it, fast. That's what the XL booster and a boost amp (plus the Maelstrom's hull bonus) will give you.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-09-24 13:32:34 UTC
I'd go with whatever Alara said, with the addition that the Mael is an awesome PVE ship. I flew it with 3 semiconductor memory rigs,XL Booster plus an AB. Like Alara and Marc above me said, sustained numbers may look good but burst tanking is the way to go with the Mael. Eft warrioring as much as it may be frowned up sometime, can give you good setups if you know what you are doing.

About people who say they get 15 min completion times, don't worry about them now, keep at the skills. I will once again ask you to refer to Alara's post for the skills. Getting turrets to T2 is not a priority right now. But you should aim(pun unintended) for that once you've got most of your ancillary Gunnery skills to 5.

GL with your spaceships,mate!

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-09-24 14:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Jake Warbird wrote:
I'd go with whatever Alara said, with the addition that the Mael is an awesome PVE ship. I flew it with 3 semiconductor memory rigs,XL Booster plus an AB. Like Alara and Marc above me said, sustained numbers may look good but burst tanking is the way to go with the Mael. Eft warrioring as much as it may be frowned up sometime, can give you good setups if you know what you are doing.

About people who say they get 15 min completion times, don't worry about them now, keep at the skills. I will once again ask you to refer to Alara's post for the skills. Getting turrets to T2 is not a priority right now. But you should aim(pun unintended) for that once you've got most of your ancillary Gunnery skills to 5.

GL with your spaceships,mate!


Only need motion prediction to 5, and although its costs a fortune being able to load barrage is pretty valuable on a CR mael.

as for tank X-large + semi-conductors FTW......in deadspace if able.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-09-24 16:02:06 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:

That isn't a turbine, that is the Awesome Overflow Tank that stores all of the extra Awesome.

Without it the Ship would explode.

ok fine, can we get a second one on the other side so that i have somewhere to put my own Awesome?

I'm sorry but CCP is perfectly fine with you exploding.

:(

I should buy an Ishtar.