These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2341 - 2012-09-21 14:36:53 UTC
Just add "fix HAM PG usage" to the list, plz

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#2342 - 2012-09-21 14:36:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Azorria
Shadalana wrote:
Maybe im blind, but i did the same in eft and i got really different values... o.O

all numbers with AllV, without shipbonuses. also I compared only t2 missiles... ('cos no one uses faction-hm ammo in PvE)

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65km
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54km
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Scourge Precision:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 179
Reichweite: <42km
Time to hit: 10 seconds

720mm Howitzer Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 16
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54km
Time to hit: instant


why I do not see any inbalance?

Next time don't use the short range, low damage T2 missile, with a fury missile unmodified DPS is 31, with a CN missile it's 28 and a max range that's 10km longer than optimal + fall-off on any of the other weapon systems. I think I found your missing imbalance...

...Nice try thogh Cool

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
MotorBoatMe WithYourFace
PiiiGGGss iiiNNN SSSpppAAAcccEEE
#2343 - 2012-09-21 14:38:07 UTC
My main flies a Cane and I feel the change to the hurricane is fine.

Missiles should be ok, too, my main concern is that the T2 ammo.

Short range ammo should have considerably more damage than the long range counterpart. I also feel that the damage application when tackled should be higher as well.

My second concern is with HAM's powergrid needs. I believe that they should be in between HML and RLML in powergrid need.

My last thought on this is that I believe while you are at missiles Torps should get a buff to velocity (range).

My missile alt is itching for a pocket bellicose......

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2344 - 2012-09-21 14:38:10 UTC
Bloutok wrote:
Onictus wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Well.

I guess I'm going to start ignoring this thread because the conversation is going in CCP's left ear and out the right.


These nerfs will not change by release.




So, I guess I'lll just start training WINMATAR. Seems to be the best route at this rate anyway.


This is a case where going FOTM may be a bad idea, you may note the cane getting nerfed as well.


Cane nerf ?

It's still faster and whatever you put on it, it's stil gonna DPS you to death or GTFO... because it's faster.......

Speed anyone ?


Ecm drones anyone? Or just kill it, a cane with a point barely pushes 35k ehp, y u no nano drake? Mine has a web, and those neuts only have a 5km range.

Canes only do big damage in close.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2345 - 2012-09-21 14:38:15 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Shadalana wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


Maybe im blind, but i did the same in eft and i got really different values... o.O

all numbers with AllV, without shipbonuses. also I compared only t2 missiles... ('cos no one uses faction-hm ammo in PvE)

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65km
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54km
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Scourge Precision:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 179
Reichweite: <42km
Time to hit: 10 seconds

720mm Howitzer Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 16
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54km
Time to hit: instant


why I do not see any inbalance?


Try it with lead on the hybrid, depleted uranium on the arty and radio on the beam.

Bet you see a difference when you stack T1 ammo to T1 ammo.


Seems to me it's more a problem with T/Faction ammo. But in the same regard, it's so people can only use one type of ammo for their specified race.

Amarr - EM/Thermal
Caldari - Kinetic missile Bonus
Gallente - Thermal/Kinetic
Minmatar - Explosive/Kinetic

If you use any other type of ammo for the guns, you lose DPS, but gain range

If you use any other type of missile for Caldari *yes, depending on ship* you lose dps....
So I agree with removing Kinetic missile damage bonus....
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#2346 - 2012-09-21 14:41:02 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
Onictus wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Well.

I guess I'm going to start ignoring this thread because the conversation is going in CCP's left ear and out the right.


These nerfs will not change by release.




So, I guess I'lll just start training WINMATAR. Seems to be the best route at this rate anyway.


This is a case where going FOTM may be a bad idea, you may note the cane getting nerfed as well.


Cane nerf ?

It's still faster and whatever you put on it, it's stil gonna DPS you to death or GTFO... because it's faster.......

Speed anyone ?


Ecm drones anyone? Or just kill it, a cane with a point barely pushes 35k ehp, y u no nano drake? Mine has a web, and those neuts only have a 5km range.

Canes only do big damage in close.


The shield cane is the one that decides if there is a fight at all. What is that worth in the balance thing ?
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2347 - 2012-09-21 14:43:24 UTC
Onictus wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Well.

I guess I'm going to start ignoring this thread because the conversation is going in CCP's left ear and out the right.


These nerfs will not change by release.




So, I guess I'lll just start training WINMATAR. Seems to be the best route at this rate anyway.


This is a case where going FOTM may be a bad idea, you may note the cane getting nerfed as well.



Yeah, but the nerfed cane is still more effective than most other bcs.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#2348 - 2012-09-21 14:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
CCP Fozzie wrote:


  • Why aren't you considering Delayed Damage/Firewalls/Defenders?
    • Another excellent question and the answer is that we have not forgotten them at all. Missiles are very different from turrets in a lot of ways and that's both a big part of their appeal and part of the reason that the arguments in this thread seems to be going in circles.
    Aspects like the delay on damage, vulnerability to firewalls, defenders, using their own formula instead of tracking and selectable damage types are all hard to put on paper since their importance changes greatly based on the specific ingame situation.
    "Bringing in line" may not have been the best choice of words since it can be misunderstood to mean that everything will be the same. Missiles will still have certain advantages and disadvantages inherent to their mechanics, and part of the compensation for those differences is the fact that even after this proposal heavy missiles would continue to be by far the best cruiser weapon for damage projection at mid to long range. I am not proposing making heavy missiles match guns in damage or range, I'm proposing reducing the advantage they have over guns slightly. That being said this is a tricky balance area since so much of their performance is dependent on all these other factors. We're not taking the challenges here lightly and that's one of the reasons we're reaching out to you all for your feedback on the proposal.


    This, especially the part I underlined is the big factor in my concerns, and why I urge caution. i'm not big huge lover of heavy misses per se, I just hate the "flavor of the month swapping" that happens (ie do this to HMLs and watch HAMs and light missles take their place).

    Still think the combination of nerfs to HMLs + TDs affecting missles + the future revamps of the drake and tengu = a bit to much change all at once and invites unintended consequences. The risk is lowering HML usefulness below a threshold acceptable to player who use them, thus making yet another eve weapon useless.

    I am however glad you are paying attention to the issues we've raised.
    Onictus
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #2349 - 2012-09-21 14:47:29 UTC
    Bloutok wrote:
    Onictus wrote:
    Bloutok wrote:
    Onictus wrote:
    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
    Well.

    I guess I'm going to start ignoring this thread because the conversation is going in CCP's left ear and out the right.


    These nerfs will not change by release.




    So, I guess I'lll just start training WINMATAR. Seems to be the best route at this rate anyway.


    This is a case where going FOTM may be a bad idea, you may note the cane getting nerfed as well.


    Cane nerf ?

    It's still faster and whatever you put on it, it's stil gonna DPS you to death or GTFO... because it's faster.......

    Speed anyone ?


    Ecm drones anyone? Or just kill it, a cane with a point barely pushes 35k ehp, y u no nano drake? Mine has a web, and those neuts only have a 5km range.

    Canes only do big damage in close.


    The shield cane is the one that decides if there is a fight at all. What is that worth in the balance thing ?


    What? Why? You've never landed on anyone? Sure a nanocane is faster than a dual nano- drake, but no if he's webbed, is he has a scram you kill him in a DPS race, if he doesn't you web him and keep him in fall off.
    Terik Deatharbingr
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #2350 - 2012-09-21 14:47:53 UTC
    Grey Azorria wrote:
    Shadalana wrote:
    Maybe im blind, but i did the same in eft and i got really different values... o.O

    all numbers with AllV, without shipbonuses. also I compared only t2 missiles... ('cos no one uses faction-hm ammo in PvE)

    250mm Railgun II with Spike:
    DPS: 20
    Alpha: 92
    Optimal: 65km
    Time to hit: instant

    Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
    DPS: 21
    Alpha: 91
    Optimal: 54km
    Time to hit: instant

    Heavy Missile Launcher II with Scourge Precision:
    DPS: 21
    Alpha: 179
    Reichweite: <42km
    Time to hit: 10 seconds

    720mm Howitzer Artillery II with Tremor:
    DPS: 16
    Alpha: 242
    Optimal: 54km
    Time to hit: instant


    why I do not see any inbalance?

    Next time don't use the short range, low damage T2 missile, with a fury missile unmodified DPS is 31, with a CN missile it's 28 and a max range that's 10km longer than optimal + fall-off on any of the other weapon systems. I think I found your missing imbalance...

    ...Nice try thogh Cool


    It's ok, your numbers failed as well. Not accounting for cycle time. Everyone seems to forget that if my range on a Fury is 75k....it doesn't mean I can me at 75k...i need to be at 65k....maybe 70, but that's pushing it because of they turn and run at all, i'll never hit them...at least guns have a falloff.....with a 28k falloff on hybrids, technically they could sit outside missile range and continue to snip...maybe not for much...but considering caldari is the slowest of all ships, it's not like they are going to catch you.

    People against Missiles need to think about all the different factors when comparing apples to oranges which is what missiles are to guns. All the gun users need to pull up EFT and a Drake versus a Harby, Brutix and a Cane just using 2 damage mods for each and a prop mod...make sure they are going full speed....see what kind of numbers you get using T2 ammo...
    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #2351 - 2012-09-21 14:49:01 UTC
    @ CCP

    Why not nerf fury missiles by 15% range and 10% damage and leave precision heavies alone?


    I've never heard anyone crying about how effective a drake is in close range.

    It's all about their effectiveness at a distance.
    Bloodpetal
    Tir Capital Management Group
    #2352 - 2012-09-21 14:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:


    With tracking disruptors, this fit will pwn drakes, and it will fit the reduced PG nerf coming to the hurricane


    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:


    Why do you need a prop mod when you can get right on top of them with 2 neuts and 2 disruptor to kills their exposion radius/velocity and neut away whatever cap mods they might be using.




    You don't PVP much, admit it.

    Where I am.
    Kikusama
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #2353 - 2012-09-21 14:51:51 UTC
    MotorBoatMe WithYourFace wrote:
    Short range ammo should have considerably more damage than the long range counterpart.


    Am I the only one that thinks it's an unthinkable fallacy to compare missiles to guns from such a simplistic point of view?

    Guns make the news. Science doesn't.
    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #2354 - 2012-09-21 14:54:07 UTC
    and...unsubscribe to thread cause this is going no where and CCP will not take the advice of anyone on this thread.

    Hell, it's too long for them to even keep up with reading it.

    I'm out...

    I supposed I could train for a Machariel... Do we armor or shield tank those?
    Bloodpetal
    Tir Capital Management Group
    #2355 - 2012-09-21 14:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:


    Yeah, but the nerfed cane is still more effective than most other bcs.



    You sure about that?

    You can't even fit a hurricane properly. I hate to see how you butcher a Myrmidon and Harbinger.



    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
    and...unsubscribe to thread cause this is going no where and CCP will not take the advice of anyone on this thread.

    Hell, it's too long for them to even keep up with reading it.

    I'm out...

    I supposed I could train for a Machariel... Do we armor or shield tank those?



    Whew, thanks. i thought you'd never leave *insert series of offensive remarks that will be censored*

    Pirate

    Where I am.
    Bloutok
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #2356 - 2012-09-21 14:55:25 UTC
    This is a quote of quotes and i cant quote more then 5 times says the forum.
    Well.

    I guess I'm going to start ignoring this thread because the conversation is going in CCP's left ear and out the right.


    These nerfs will not change by release.




    So, I guess I'lll just start training WINMATAR. Seems to be the best route at this rate anyway.

    This is a case where going FOTM may be a bad idea, you may note the cane getting nerfed as well.

    Cane nerf ?

    It's still faster and whatever you put on it, it's stil gonna DPS you to death or GTFO... because it's faster.......

    Speed anyone ?

    Ecm drones anyone? Or just kill it, a cane with a point barely pushes 35k ehp, y u no nano drake? Mine has a web, and those neuts only have a 5km range.

    Canes only do big damage in close.

    The shield cane is the one that decides if there is a fight at all. What is that worth in the balance thing ?

    What? Why? You've never landed on anyone? Sure a nanocane is faster than a dual nano- drake, but no if he's webbed, is he has a scram you kill him in a DPS race, if he doesn't you web him and keep him in fall off.


    END QUOTE.
    So, you agree that speed is part of the balance thing ?
    It depends on the setup of the fight ? :)
    It depends on how many on each sides ?
    And whatever other things there are to think about ?

    Just ask this question : After all is done, would this or that ship still be used ?
    Well, used, in my mind means being more then a niche thing that you take out once per month because the exact setup is flashing in your face.

    With the way things are going right now, i say the drake is not nerfed, it's nuked.
    Bloodpetal
    Tir Capital Management Group
    #2357 - 2012-09-21 14:59:00 UTC
    Bloutok wrote:
    This is a quote of quotes and i cant quote more then 5 times says the forum.
    Well.



    Please, let him leave. Don't poke at him anymore so he'll leave us alone!


    Where I am.
    MIrple
    Black Sheep Down
    Tactical Narcotics Team
    #2358 - 2012-09-21 15:01:40 UTC
    Hannott Thanos wrote:
    MIrple wrote:
    Hannott Thanos wrote:
    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

    The drake doesn't have much capabilty to fit TCs if it wants to maintain EHP and still have web and scram.

    I can see where this could be problematic.

    Ever used turrets and ships with 3 mids?


    A Drake also has 4 low slots.

    Which can all be used for damage mods. Imagine you had 20 km range and had to use lowslots for tank, dps and range mods. People who use Drakes are spoiled and are now brought in line with the rest of us. Welcome to the world of mortals


    Sorry my point was the person above was complaining about not being able to fit a TC to a Drake I was pointing out that you can fit a suitcase 2 BCU and TE in the lows. I know how to fit ships sadly so I am not upset about these changes at all I welcome them with open arms.
    MotorBoatMe WithYourFace
    PiiiGGGss iiiNNN SSSpppAAAcccEEE
    #2359 - 2012-09-21 15:03:21 UTC
    Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
    Just add "fix HAM PG usage" to the list, plz


    +1
    Terik Deatharbingr
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #2360 - 2012-09-21 15:04:14 UTC
    Here's a riddle for you...

    A Drake, a Harby, a Cane and a Brutix *yes, a brutix* all land on top of each other....who has the least DPS? Before you gun babies start, yes, I said close range...doesn't matter if they are LR guns or SR guns.....short range gun ammo out does HMLs and they can't switch to HAMLs without docking.

    If I were to ask you close range, guns or missiles?

    If I were to ask you long range sniping, guns or missiles?

    If I were to ask you mid to long range or PVE, guns or missiles?


    So basically, Fozzie doesn't like the fact that Drakes and Tengu's pwn the PVE market. You watch....the Gallante Domi w/ Sentries will now pwn the PVE market....esp with the AI changes to make it hate drones less when switching targets. Only problem is all those statistics of Drake is the lower training times because you have to train drones for the Domi as well as ship/fitting/guns...but in all actuality the Domi is currently a better PVP boat as it's all AFK....let the sentries do the work while you watch a movie...at least with the drake, you have to switch targets