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When are rockets getting some love?

Author
Script66
Solus Ventures
#1 - 2012-09-21 13:17:08 UTC
They are supposed to be the close range, heavy damage frig missile weapon. Yet, their damage does not even remotely compare to that of other small close range weapons.

---- For example ----

A malediction with max skills and 3 rocket launchers with faction ammo: 69 dps - range about 10km

A crow with the same setup: 83 dps - range about 15km

---- compared to ----

A claw with 3 150mm AC, max skills, faction EMP: 120 dps - range 6.5km (50% more DPS than the Crow)

A Crusader with dual light pulses, max skills, faction crystals: 135 dps - range 5.2km

A Crusader with the same setup, but using scorch: 107 DPS - range 12km

This is an important example since it does more damage and has nearly identical range to the rocket examples.


Another issue is scalability with skills. My three day old alt can field a punisher that deals 70+ dps. That is already more damage than someone who spent months and months to max out the malediction for example.

This all on top of the fact you are increasing light missile damage by 10% in the winter update. This is needed, but is making rockets even more obsolete (provided you can fit the launchers and aren't stuck with rockets like the malediction).

Frankly not only rockets dps, but also their tech 2 ammo needs to be looked at. Interceptors also probably could use a look too since the reasons to fly them over their T1 counterparts now are sort of few and far between when factoring in cost vs purpose and usability.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#2 - 2012-09-21 13:32:02 UTC
Not sure if troll... if so, not bad 6/10

If not:

Interceptors have low dps. That's not their role. A punisher is supposed to deal more damage than a malediction, nothing wrong here. Same thing for the crusader, it's the combat interceptor, so it does more damage, while the malediction is the fleet interceptor which is better at tackling and staying alive.

Turret dps does not apply the same way missile dps does.

ACs at max falloff do about 50% of their on paper dps if the tracking is perfect, which means 60dps for the claw at 6.5km.

If you want a khanid missile frigate, have a look at the vengeance (and keep in mind it's the tankiest frigate in the game). It does much more damage than the malediction.

I hope this answered your questions.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Script66
Solus Ventures
#3 - 2012-09-21 13:56:42 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Not sure if troll... if so, not bad 6/10

If not:

Interceptors have low dps. That's not their role. A punisher is supposed to deal more damage than a malediction, nothing wrong here. Same thing for the crusader, it's the combat interceptor, so it does more damage, while the malediction is the fleet interceptor which is better at tackling and staying alive.

Turret dps does not apply the same way missile dps does.

ACs at max falloff do about 50% of their on paper dps if the tracking is perfect, which means 60dps for the claw at 6.5km.

If you want a khanid missile frigate, have a look at the vengeance (and keep in mind it's the tankiest frigate in the game). It does much more damage than the malediction.

I hope this answered your questions.



My issue then is what is the point of putting a tackle range bonus on the malediction if its forced to use rockets? An extra 1.5km on a scrambler? Also, why bother with a ceptor when you can fly the t1 variants now? They are nearly as good and cost nothing. Also, range on close range weapons is borderline irrelevant since you will close the distance in seconds if you have any clue at all about what you are doing. When your AC has over .5 tracking, if you aren't hitting them, they aren't hitting you either. Rocket boats could be an exception, except they are universally slower and bulkier (sig radius) than all other frigs.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#4 - 2012-09-21 14:16:15 UTC
Script66 wrote:
They are supposed to be the close range, heavy damage frig missile weapon. Yet, their damage does not even remotely compare to that of other small close range weapons.

---- For example ----

A malediction with max skills and 3 rocket launchers with faction ammo: 69 dps - range about 10km

A crow with the same setup: 83 dps - range about 15km

---- compared to ----

A claw with 3 150mm AC, max skills, faction EMP: 120 dps - range 6.5km (50% more DPS than the Crow)

A Crusader with dual light pulses, max skills, faction crystals: 135 dps - range 5.2km

A Crusader with the same setup, but using scorch: 107 DPS - range 12km

This is an important example since it does more damage and has nearly identical range to the rocket examples.


Another issue is scalability with skills. My three day old alt can field a punisher that deals 70+ dps. That is already more damage than someone who spent months and months to max out the malediction for example.

This all on top of the fact you are increasing light missile damage by 10% in the winter update. This is needed, but is making rockets even more obsolete (provided you can fit the launchers and aren't stuck with rockets like the malediction).

Frankly not only rockets dps, but also their tech 2 ammo needs to be looked at. Interceptors also probably could use a look too since the reasons to fly them over their T1 counterparts now are sort of few and far between when factoring in cost vs purpose and usability.


You forgot Kestrel
Kestrel is sad now

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt

Script66
Solus Ventures
#5 - 2012-09-21 14:25:31 UTC
Tarn Kugisa wrote:


You forgot Kestrel
Kestrel is sad now



Sort of, but the kestrel was out of line. It did more damage than the crow, and its big cargo wasn't balanced, it was just "flavor".

It will now be in line with other frigs, but I think, again, this is just a problem with balance of rockets and light missiles as a whole.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#6 - 2012-09-21 15:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
T2 missile ammo is being looked at as part of the winter expansion. Read the stickied posts about it.

Autocannons do not do more damage than rockets except at point blank range. That is, autocannons do not have 6 km range. When you see 0.7 km optimal and 5.3 km falloff, that means they do 50% of their damage at 6 km. Learn how falloff works. Because of their ridiculously low optimal range, small autocannons almost never do their full paper DPS.

Small lasers have major major tracking problems. Try to hit anything from under 3-4 km. Really, try it. Or, with Scorch, try hitting anything from under 7-8 km. Now, try hitting an armor tanked ship, or a T2 Minmatar ship with lasers. Wouldn't it be nice if you could swap to kinetic or explosive damage at will? It's too bad lasers don't have perfect damage selection like rockets do.

Rockets hit targets without having to care about the speed of the originating ship. That is, you can be zipping around at 1.5 km/s with your Malediction around a target without worrying about whether you are able to hit it -- you will hit it. A web makes sure you do nearly full damage against even afterburner-fit ships. The fact they're missiles also gives them built-in kiting capabilities, as moving farther from your target has absolutely no effect on how well you're hitting the target, where with turrets you'd have to stop firing and swap to long range ammo.

In other words, no, rockets are fine. Don't read too far into the raw DPS figure in fitting tools: the delivery and type of that damage matters more than you'd think.

Also, they look awesome!

Ed: Also, you may want to look at some actual combat ships. Interceptors are in a bit of a rut (particularly the Crow), and the Malediction's role isn't really to even do damage. Look at the Vengeance and Hawk for what rockets can do.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#7 - 2012-09-21 15:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
Quote:
My issue then is what is the point of putting a tackle range bonus on the malediction if its forced to use rockets? An extra 1.5km on a scrambler? Also, why bother with a ceptor when you can fly the t1 variants now? They are nearly as good and cost nothing. Also, range on close range weapons is borderline irrelevant since you will close the distance in seconds if you have any clue at all about what you are doing. When your AC has over .5 tracking, if you aren't hitting them, they aren't hitting you either. Rocket boats could be an exception, except they are universally slower and bulkier (sig radius) than all other frigs.


First of all, it is not forced to use rockets. It has turret hard points, and you can fit light missile launchers on it (although it will probably easier and more worthwhile after the winter patch).

If you think a t1 attack frigate is as good as an interceptor, you overlooked the MWD bonus, the warp speed, the base resists and the higher speed.

If you are double webbed, even 1km out of range can be a really long way, especially if your (single webbed) target can kite you at will.

And no, rocket boats are not the slowest and bulkyest ships around. Armor buffer tanked ships are. Granted, a malediction can be one of the latter if you chose so.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
#8 - 2012-09-21 16:24:12 UTC
I remember in a tourney where I was in a rocket kestrel teamed up with an AC rifter. Now, the rifter had to get much closer than me to hit its targets, but I could hang back a bit.

Despite him getting to the target and firing on them before me, I would always do twice the amount of damage he dealt. The target always got webbed (by the rifter) and turret disrupted (me).

I do not see the need for a rocket anything to get a buff, as rockets are nasty, nasty, nasty as they stand.


on another note; I like some of the actually constructive criticisms that others have been posting!

Where the science gets done

Script66
Solus Ventures
#9 - 2012-09-21 17:08:43 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:


First of all, it is not forced to use rockets. It has turret hard points, and you can fit light missile launchers on it (although it will probably easier and more worthwhile after the winter patch).


Based on this logic, you can fit anything to anything I guess, who cares about ship bonuses...

Iris Bravemount wrote:

If you think a t1 attack frigate is as good as an interceptor, you overlooked the MWD bonus, the warp speed, the base resists and the higher speed.


We are talking about the difference in paying under a million, and 10 million plus.

MWB bonus is dumb, you aren't going to keep it on in almost any situation other than holding down a larger ship that you aren't actually engaging, and you are waiting for someone else to do your dirty work.

Base resists are not much better on ceptors compared to their t1 counterparts. Same with top speed, these are minor increases.

Iris Bravemount wrote:

If you are double webbed, even 1km out of range can be a really long way, especially if your (single webbed) target can kite you at will.
And no, rocket boats are not the slowest and bulkyest ships around. Armor buffer tanked ships are. Granted, a malediction can be one of the latter if you chose so.


There are only a few frigs that can double web and not be gimped, and none of the ships we have talked about are capable of this, thanks for the random fact injection. And yes, you can FIT a ship to be slower and bulkier, I am talking about base stats.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#10 - 2012-09-21 20:10:06 UTC
I should note that while the Stiletto, Ares, Malediction, and Raptor are all tackle interceptors that get point bonus, none of them fit long range weaponry because you can't hit anything with long range weapons when you're going 3+ km/s. They get short range weapons to deal with light tackle that caught them, or drones. In the Malediction's case, tight fittings and no bonus means light missiles are useless. For the others, it's tracking.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)