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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Ore. Simplified.

Author
Pipa Porto
#121 - 2012-09-20 22:33:30 UTC
Cheopis wrote:
Wait. Are you now proposing that the volume of a single molecule of Veldspar is 0.1m3?

That's a REALLY big molecule.

You do know what division is, right? That might be the source of all the confusion I'm seeing here if nobody ever taught you division in school. It would explain why it is that you seem to be afraid of anything that you can't count on your fingers & toes.

Damnit, seriously, are you REALLY proposing that 0.1m3 of veldspar is the smallest possible subdivision of the ore? If so, you really need to step back and take another look at your argument after some sleep and a cup of coffee.


The Vacuum of Space is a viscous liquid.
Larger ships with more resources able to be dedicated to sensors and computers have slower targeting systems than small ships.
Space Sonar works faster than light but isn't able to determine even relative distances to objects outside ~250km of your ship.
CONCORD can now remotely lock down some systems of a criminal ship but not others.
Grid-Fu changes the way local space is configured by moving small ships around.
Some Faster than Light communication is unlimited in range, some isn't.
The universe operates at 1HZ.
Invisibility.

How is adding "EvE Ores are enormous molecules" any weirder than the above? Or that they are unstable if handled in smaller chunks than 1 unit (which happens to fit many of their descriptions)?

You're complaining that the EVE universe doesn't work the way you expect it to based on your experience in the real universe. I'm saying that that complaint is silly.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Pipa Porto
#122 - 2012-09-20 22:36:01 UTC
Cheopis wrote:
Paikis wrote:
I am against any simplification of the mining system for a couple of reasons.

1. There is no reason to change it. Our current system works just fine.
2. I learned it. If I can learn it, anyone can learn it.
3. I like the fact that people who are willing to put in the work (read: excel documents full of formulas) can make money off other people's inefficiencies.


Gawd, after dealing with Pipa's incomprehensibility, this is refreshing, thank you. I don't agree with you, but thank you for not creating an artificial argument out of delusional adherence to illogical units of measure.


So you haven't actually read what I've been writing. Good to know.

1 and 2 have been the cornerstone of my argument the entire time.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Cheopis
Cheopis Industries
#123 - 2012-09-20 23:42:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Cheopis
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cheopis wrote:
Paikis wrote:
I am against any simplification of the mining system for a couple of reasons.

1. There is no reason to change it. Our current system works just fine.
2. I learned it. If I can learn it, anyone can learn it.
3. I like the fact that people who are willing to put in the work (read: excel documents full of formulas) can make money off other people's inefficiencies.


Gawd, after dealing with Pipa's incomprehensibility, this is refreshing, thank you. I don't agree with you, but thank you for not creating an artificial argument out of delusional adherence to illogical units of measure.


So you haven't actually read what I've been writing. Good to know.

1 and 2 have been the cornerstone of my argument the entire time.


No, there's a difference here. Paikis says he doesn't want the change because he likes what we have. He doesn't invent bullshit.

You are saying you don't want the change because you are so deathly afraid of decimals that you refuse to even consider that simplifying the ore handling system and removing dozens of utterly meaningless volumetric calculations would yield systemic simplicity, even if the math is a bit harder to get "perfect".

You have argued that the old system is good because it enforces waste, then turned around and bashed my system because it generates waste.

You refuse to acknowledge that every single ore unit is it's own unit of measure, and completely irrelevant to any other aspect of EVE. You seem to think that a single molecule of Veldspar is .1m3.

You don't seem to understand the difference between complexity that adds value, and complexity that does not.

At this point in time, any well established miner can completely and utterly ignore all of these stupid little volume measurements you are so irrationally attached to. Every meaningful premeditated action taken by any competent miner with an eye on their ISK is based on m3 yields, not stupid little fake-units.

Mining laser yields are in m3. Haulers haul in m3. Wastage due to refining quantities is utterly meaningless to a decent refiner.

If CCP wants to implement more complexity into mining than the extremely simple and straightforward method I have proposed, I'm absolutely certain that they can do so without creating a whole bunch of meaningless units of measure that have no impact on anyone other than newbies. I spent three minutes thinking about it and came up with a few ideas which I tossed out earlier as a sample of what one might do to add complexity to my proposed changes without adding stupidity back in.

I'm sorry that you are incapable of dealing with the concept of losing even one single veldspar to a rounding error. If you just said you don't like it, I could respect that, but all of these bulshit reasons that make no sense at all and even contradict one another is a clear indication that you are not being rational.

Now it's time to go back to the OP and think about arbitrage and the ore market
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
#124 - 2012-09-21 02:29:13 UTC
I have been lurking this thread for a while now, and i figure i will throw my two cents in before the argumentativeness gets it locked.

The idea OP presents is fairly simple and straightforward and easy to do. That stated, I do not think its necessary to spend time changing it. What currently exsisis isn't so challenging, despite its minor quirks, that it cannot be understood and utilized with minimal effort. Most people use premade spreadsheets or some such to run their calculations for them.

I do not think it is a bad idea, i just don't think it is enough of an idea. If perhaps there was more to it i could see working on it, but basically its just unit conversions. Our current system is like English measurments(or Brittish or American depending on what you want to call it) and he is talking about converting to Metric system. Some people like Metric, some people like english, the same is true with this debate. At the end of the day you still have the same amount of stuff basically, and the same amount of stuff is wasted, and the same amount of stuff is harvested, etc etc.

Its really not worth the time to go through and do the calculations and do all the double checking on the Devs part, for a simple unit conversion. If this idea were pitched in tandem with something that actually enhances the overall enjoyability of mining i could see it gaining more traction. I honestly wouldn't mind it being purely volumetric measurements, but without something more, I just don't see it happening.

As far as the whole Units Vs Volume waste thing. it really doesnt matter any more. nobody mines ABC ore in a scythe, and with the ship changes coming, nobody will, and although i rig my hulks for that one or two more units of Arkanor from drones, it really isn't that big of a deal. The new ORE frig will be good for ninja mining, so why not ditch that mechanic if there is a mining change that makes mining in general more entertaining?

TL;DR

not a bad idea, but save it till someone actually has a pass at making mining less drole. Better chance of getting it implemented that way.
Cheopis
Cheopis Industries
#125 - 2012-09-21 03:04:08 UTC
Furry Commander wrote:
I have been lurking this thread for a while now, and i figure i will throw my two cents in before the argumentativeness gets it locked.

The idea OP presents is fairly simple and straightforward and easy to do. That stated, I do not think its necessary to spend time changing it. What currently exsisis isn't so challenging, despite its minor quirks, that it cannot be understood and utilized with minimal effort. Most people use premade spreadsheets or some such to run their calculations for them.

I do not think it is a bad idea, i just don't think it is enough of an idea. If perhaps there was more to it i could see working on it, but basically its just unit conversions. Our current system is like English measurments(or Brittish or American depending on what you want to call it) and he is talking about converting to Metric system. Some people like Metric, some people like english, the same is true with this debate. At the end of the day you still have the same amount of stuff basically, and the same amount of stuff is wasted, and the same amount of stuff is harvested, etc etc.

Its really not worth the time to go through and do the calculations and do all the double checking on the Devs part, for a simple unit conversion. If this idea were pitched in tandem with something that actually enhances the overall enjoyability of mining i could see it gaining more traction. I honestly wouldn't mind it being purely volumetric measurements, but without something more, I just don't see it happening.

As far as the whole Units Vs Volume waste thing. it really doesnt matter any more. nobody mines ABC ore in a scythe, and with the ship changes coming, nobody will, and although i rig my hulks for that one or two more units of Arkanor from drones, it really isn't that big of a deal. The new ORE frig will be good for ninja mining, so why not ditch that mechanic if there is a mining change that makes mining in general more entertaining?

TL;DR

not a bad idea, but save it till someone actually has a pass at making mining less drole. Better chance of getting it implemented that way.


I'm not worried about it on the level of experienced players. I would like it to change due to it's negative impact on new players. After all, the experienced players already ignore it because the weird volume units have no significant impact on major mining operations. The new player experience really doesn't need this junk. Lets clean it out.
Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2012-09-21 07:22:03 UTC
Several times when I refine ore, there is some elft over. CCP should make the station reprocess the leftovers as well.

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