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Making money

Author
Ana'song
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-09-21 00:43:05 UTC
How do you manage to make money being an industrialist? I've got all the relevant skills but it seems like anything I make I'm either selling to buy orders or I have to constantly babysit my sell order so they don't get 0.01 isk'd. I'm not operating out of Jita (Rens instead). Should I be staying away from trade hubs and seed my products on station markets in between? or am I doing something completely wrong.

All my items seem to be showing good profit but they don't move -- despite their respective markets moving many thousands of units a day.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-09-21 00:45:31 UTC
Ana'song wrote:
How do you manage to make money being an industrialist? I've got all the relevant skills but it seems like anything I make I'm either selling to buy orders or I have to constantly babysit my sell order so they don't get 0.01 isk'd. I'm not operating out of Jita (Rens instead). Should I be staying away from trade hubs and seed my products on station markets in between? or am I doing something completely wrong.

All my items seem to be showing good profit but they don't move -- despite their respective markets moving many thousands of units a day.


You can try to undercut deeper to drive away the .01 ISKers but there is no garantee it will work. You also leave a little bit of potential profit on the table but there is 0 profit in unsold items.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-09-21 01:01:42 UTC
Ana'song wrote:
How do you manage to make money being an industrialist? I've got all the relevant skills but it seems like anything I make I'm either selling to buy orders or I have to constantly babysit my sell order so they don't get 0.01 isk'd. I'm not operating out of Jita (Rens instead). Should I be staying away from trade hubs and seed my products on station markets in between? or am I doing something completely wrong.

All my items seem to be showing good profit but they don't move -- despite their respective markets moving many thousands of units a day.


Being an industrialist is a tough gig. You're basically competing with about 85% of the rest of the player-base. In PVP or PVE missions, you're only competing with five or ten at a time.

Volume is the name of the game on a lot of stuff, especially T1 stuff. Low margins on large volume. That's the only way to do it. Unfortunately, a lot of dummies sell below their own manufacture cost because they think that if they mine the minerals themselves it's "free", so you're competing with idiots who don't mind taking huge losses.

There are some ways to make money, but it means using contracts rather than the market. First, manufacture to contract: contact a corp or alliance, and give them a favorable price on a bulk purchase of some module. Work out an arrangement that gives you a decent profit but allows the purchasers greater convenience or flexibility. Second, watch the "bulk trade" mailing list and find out what's moving in bulk. You might be able to make a deal with a middleman to manufacture goods to fill orders on that list in case the primary can't fill a large order right away. Third, and this is vital, make sure your BPO's are researched enough to limit waste but not *over*-researched. Too many manufacturers over-research their BPO's when it's not really necessary. Finally, don't just "shotgun manufacture" whatever module seems to be the flavor of the month (like ASB's are right now). Instead, try to figure out what'll be big a month or six months from now. (What modules will the new mining frigate or destroyers use the most? There's going to be a spike in demand for that stuff over and above the ship hulls.)

You might also set up your own POS and do your manufacturing there, but that requires a large up-front investment and is a pretty high ongoing cost due to fuel needs.

Unfortunately, you can do all this stuff and still find it impossible to make a living by manufacturing stuff. That's why diversifying is good: do PI, mining, missioning, researching, and other stuff to keep your income flowing for when your manufacturing income is slow.
Stigman Zuwadza
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-09-21 01:06:30 UTC
I'd suggest maybe seeding your items in more hubs first off and spread you bets so to speak ...providing you can manage the logistics.

Failing that research lower volume, lower margin items that may have a lot less competition, eg, instead of making 250k on the item you're currently selling you might find that making 125k per unit on a less competitive item will yield the same projected profit as the item you're currently producing/selling.

Also if you're selling to buy orders you could try listing a Sell Order for say half way between the lowest sell / highest buy and hope another trader picks them up. I believe this is done pretty often by the manufacturers.

Anyhows, good luck.

Fly safe. o7

It's broken and it's been broken for a long time and it'll be broken for some time to come.

Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#5 - 2012-09-21 01:19:03 UTC
A ferengi once said a wise man can hear profit in the wind, I've been selling that gallente frigate that's going to become a drone carrier for the up coming buff, people are buying in the hopes of the mineral requirements being higher thus reprocessing the increased minerals so build and sell at lower price then others as minerals for said frig are low.
Rengerel en Distel
#6 - 2012-09-21 02:06:10 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
A ferengi once said a wise man can hear profit in the wind, I've been selling that gallente frigate that's going to become a drone carrier for the up coming buff, people are buying in the hopes of the mineral requirements being higher thus reprocessing the increased minerals so build and sell at lower price then others as minerals for said frig are low.


anyone that's doing that hasn't been paying much attention to the way they've handled it for all the other ships.

As to the OP, you really need to do your market research. There are things that you'll just never make money on, and there's things you can make money on, as long as you sell it in the right place. You also have to deal with people that have tons more isk than you do, and can take less profit on more volume. You're trying to unload 10 ships, they're sitting on 1000, and will take less margins in order to keep the isk moving.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2012-09-21 02:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Ana'song wrote:
How do you manage to make money being an industrialist? I've got all the relevant skills but it seems like anything I make I'm either selling to buy orders or I have to constantly babysit my sell order so they don't get 0.01 isk'd. I'm not operating out of Jita (Rens instead). Should I be staying away from trade hubs and seed my products on station markets in between? or am I doing something completely wrong.

All my items seem to be showing good profit but they don't move -- despite their respective markets moving many thousands of units a day.

I went to Jita yesterday. Saw the market was good for a few items. I bought 1.25b of materials and built a bunch overnight. I sold those to buy orders for 130m profit the next day. If I had used sell orders, they'd still be listed for months (been there, done that).

Then there is another batch of stuff that will probably take over a month to sell. I moved it all to another trade hub where the sell order price is ~35% higher than Jita. Even if it sells slow, I'll still do okay. I adjust the price about once or twice a week.

There are LOTS of things on the market. You have to learn how each one trades. This is why I make spreadsheets (I never used them until I started playing EVE).

If you find yourself in the 0.01 ISK battles, and don't want to play that game, then don't. Set your price and wait, or move on to something else.
Roman Fuego
Brotherhood of Bankrupt Bastards
#8 - 2012-09-21 02:45:14 UTC
Market research is the key. I have some BPO's I almost always make money on... Either because someone is manipulating the market or the items are just a pain to make. I tend to buy 3bil worth of mats on the weekend and make 400-700mil off of it over the course of the week. The question I'd ask is can you figure out good things to make in jita in about ten minutes of looking. If not you aren't using the right tools.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#9 - 2012-09-21 04:41:22 UTC
Don't fight the traders.

Get hired by one or a group of them.

Let them place orders with you above buy prices and if all goes well you both make a good profit.

OMG team work in eve? Shocked
Fougerius
EX-APE
#10 - 2012-09-21 08:32:17 UTC
Here is an other post explaining how to make ISK with T1 BPOs

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=98241&find=unread
Riyal
invidious Squid
#11 - 2012-09-21 08:44:33 UTC
Are using a program like 'isk per hour' up determine the top products to make? I ask as it is a good way to make items that are great on paper, but have no demand and so will never shift.

I have found having a large selection of items on the market helps speed up the sales too. Although these days I'm being lazy and just producing something that sells consistently enough to support its price at a reasonable profit over selling the materials. That and selling pre-patch mining barges.

Rens is my main marketplace at present.

In hindsight my post should have had more psssshhhh

zoni Ishikela
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-09-21 11:49:25 UTC
I can share what seems to be working for me:

- first, industry is not something I think I can do playing once a week primarily because the make or break profits comes from babysitting my market orders after manufacturing. I'm pretty sure there's tons of bots out there at the main hubs because I get 0.01 isked as you say within minutes of changing my own price. My current solution is simply to not sell at those hubs if I can help it.

- Diversify - the more stuff you can make, the easier you can respond to market conditions that in the last few months have been quite the rollercoaster especially with mineral prices That means investing a bit into a variety of BPOs and doing a lot of research. The other point of diversification is that you will find something that actually sells and keep with it.

- Trust but verify. Market data sites are useful, so are a number of tools to analyze profits for you - but keep in mind that the data on those sites is mostly based on player submissions as our friends at CCP didn't see fit to provide an API for market information. While good at a macro level and long term trends, those data marts are not necessarily great for the budding industrialist and the short term. It's a good support, but does not substitute for your own research. Move from region to region to get your own stats and see how it jives with the market data sites. I can't remember how many times I've made good profits on an item that the market data put in the "loose shirt category", vs got stuck with unsold items that supposedly moved really well.

- Know what's going on and what other players need. You won't sell what people are not interested in. You will sell what people think is convenient, and I find that convenience is valued highly. Often, this is the only way to make money when competing against these mega firms.

- This is not a one pod operation if you can help it. Get help with your supply chain and share the profits. I don't sell everything I make, I often barter with corp mates or make something they need in return for raw materials or other non related industry items such as, fuel for my POS lab. It works out in the long run because everyone gets what they want even though from a pure accounting perspective, sometimes I have IOUs, or vice versa.

- Don't bother too much with high profit items - high profit items tend to sell high but volume can be terrible so whatever profit you make can easily be outperformed by selling something at a lower profit margin but higher volume makes up for it.

- Manufacture, warehouse and sell when prices are in your favor. That immobilizes a lot of isk but can increase profits by holding stuff and selling at the right time.

- Accept that there are big dogs out there that you cannot compete with effectively. However, big dogs are not nimble, so this can be exploited. Find the niche market, but be aware the niche can change over time so constantly work at finding new things, and test small quantities first.

- Invest heavily in your own supply chain's bottom line. What are your costs? You want any production costs that are not material related (eg, those that are in fact in your own control) as low as possible which requires a lot of training, and also looking at standings. Lower production time, lower taxes and fees. They add up over time. Also, try not to loose your ships when you haul stuff if you do your own hauling - that tends to dent the profit margin real quick.

Z.


TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-09-21 12:13:21 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:

Unfortunately, a lot of dummies sell below their own manufacture cost because they think that if they mine the minerals themselves it's "free", so you're competing with idiots who don't mind taking huge losses.


This is a popular misconception. While some might be idiots, many probably are not and are actually market griefing you in an attempt to drive you out of that market or area.

...

Roman Fuego
Brotherhood of Bankrupt Bastards
#14 - 2012-09-21 12:21:52 UTC
Riyal wrote:
Are using a program like 'isk per hour' up determine the top products to make? I ask as it is a good way to make items that are great on paper, but have no demand and so will never shift.

I have found having a large selection of items on the market helps speed up the sales too. Although these days I'm being lazy and just producing something that sells consistently enough to support its price at a reasonable profit over selling the materials. That and selling pre-patch mining barges.

Rens is my main marketplace at present.



I use Eve ISK per hour to find things to buy for the week. This app does so many things for you I don't even use spreadsheets anymore... I never felt like spreadsheets were something I wanted to do in my spare time anyways. That said it won't do *everything* for you. The idea here is that it can mislead you into making something you cannot sell for months.

You have to use it for what it is good at and replace what it is bad at. For example when you think you have an item you want to make... check the prices, bid/ask, and volume data in Jita to make sure you aren't going to have a problem selling it. Check the historical data for massive price fluctiations... if you see them then someone is likely manipulating the market... see how long the high prices hold and ask yourself if you can make the item fast enough to take advantage of the high prices... Also see if there is a way you can profit from the manipulation w/o taking so much from the manipulator they put a hit out on you. Also ask if you and 10000 other people going to be dumping the same stuff into the market at the same time.

Also for the more expensive stuff... don't jump in with both feet... if possible buy a BPC and do a test run to make sure you are going to want to fork out for the BPO.

I make 80% of my ISK doing T1 exclusively in jita... I don't have a POS, I don't haul my own stuff and I don't do my own ME/PE. At best I have spotty access to a POS in a WH which I use for copying from time to time (in it's single moble lab). The point of this is that you don't need a massive setup or tons of corpmates to make ISK in indy... you really need four things:

1. Tools to figure out what to make quickly
2. ISK - you can make decent money w/ less than 500mil but it gets harder. Having a couple bil you can spend when you see an opportunity is helpful
3. Know what other services are out there... there is no need to do everything yourself... hauling is cheap... why do it yourself and expose yourself to losses.
4. A good system with MFG/invention services that are reasonably close to a hub but far enough that you don't have to wait for slots. I'm setup a couple jumps from Jita and can almost always get the slots I need.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#15 - 2012-09-21 14:56:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
A lot of amazing and accurate advice so far in this thread. Not much of the usual trolling.

A few basic steps to add a little income that I did not see mentioned.

-Selling modules and ammo in mission hubs can bring way more profit than selling the same stuff in trade hubs.

- If you do not want to play the 0.01 isk game then don't, set a price that is reasonable and leave it. the 0.01 iskers will drive the price up and down, It may drop below your price by quite a bit but will not take long to come back up. it will sell just be patient.

- If you have well researched BPO's you are not currently using set them up to make copies. Copies are cheap to make when the BPO is just sitting there not being used. Any copies you sell are just bonus isk. I did this for a long time with the fuel block BPO's when they were new. over researched them a bit rather than letting them sit. Then when ever I was not using them throw them in the copier. A max stack of max run copies took just over 24 hrs. And they sold very fast for a good price. When ever I need to make fuel blocks or the price makes them excessively profitable I have a full set of perfect BPO's.

- It was mentioned about many newer manufacturers in the "minerals I mine are free" group that continually sell modules below cost. This is not a problem but a major potential profit for almost no work. The key is to keep track of the minerals value of these items on your spread sheet. When ever they drop below that price buy them up and reprocess them. Instant profit for 30 seconds of work. There is a lot of isk to be made here when mineral values spike, many ships and large modules, on the market will become profitable to reprocess. Instant isk if you are fast, and can reprocess at 100%.

-Run some missions, even courier missions , to build up standing with the corp that owns the station you do your trading at. You may have to travel a bit to find the right agent, but it is well worth it. You can completely eliminate the tax on your transactions. Also train up the social skills to reduce broker fee's. Some mass produced modules the tax and broker fee's alone can give you enough margin to make them profitable if you mass produce them.

-In a trade hub you can mass produce the modules used for mineral compression. These sell at a high volume and decent profit in all trade hubs. Many null sec logistics runners would rather pay a little extra to just buy them rather than go through the trouble of setting up manufacturing facilities to build them. Trust me they sell well as long as you do not ask to high a price. Cost plus about 5% profit is all you need. You will make the isk in volume of sales. better to make 5% on 10,000 units than 10-15% on 10-20 units.

-If you have the capital to set up a POS and keep it producing at a high rate you can make huge profits. The bonuses received from POS manufacturing arrays can make an otherwise unprofitable module profitable. Also not having to wait for slots to open up can give your profits a good boost. Do not be fooled. manufacturing profit is not about profit per unit, but profit per hour per slot. making 100 isk profit per unit off Ammo is a much higher return than making 100,000 isk profit per unit off selling ships.

I hope this helps, It is mostly common sense stuff, but can really make or break a manufacturing plan.
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#16 - 2012-09-21 15:57:46 UTC
One avenue of approach is to stake your claim in a system and find someone willing to buy in bulk. Of course, they will most likely be purchasing to then resell for more profit, at overall less profit to you, but it also alleviates the need to keep babysitting orders and play the 0.1isk game. Or, find a mission/mining hub to sell your wares at, but cater to those crowds (Miners and Missioners hate travelling for their goodies).

You can also research the Marketplace threads and post sales-orders, advertise your services and see if you can land a dedicated buyer, etc.

There's plenty of avenues out there worth taking, just takes some digging.
Ginger Barbarella
#17 - 2012-09-21 16:37:44 UTC
I'm confident this has been stated already above, but what the heck...

1. Industry takes research. Look at how particular items or type of items (blasters, for example) play in the market in your area. Watch trends as they apply to regions around you (faction warfare, RvB region, etc), and how related items sell. As someone else suggested, try seeding some items in a market to see how they do before dumping a crap-ton on the market.
2. Don't play .01 isk games: it's not worth it unless you sell in MASSIVE bulk.
3. Get the associated skills for what you're doing optimized for the job. Get the invention skills to L5, get the Production Efficiency to L5, and so on.
4. Take advantage of your non-industry off-time to get cheap (or free!) items that you can use. I regularly use (for example) missile launchers from loot drops to increase invention success chances, and always salvage my L3 and L4 missions to use the salvage for building T1 rigs.
5. Once your manufacturing skills are optimized, look into building cheap T1-base products for people building T2 stuffs. There are some bulk sales channels if I recall, so maybe someone else can chip in with those links.
6. Check out the sticky at the top of the forums: lots of good links in there. BPO Calc (Zofu), Invention Chance Calculator (Chruker), and so on.

By all means, take the time to investigate how something will do in your markets, and watch their movement. Oh, and basic T1 ammo is great for just staring out. Once you know how to watch/plan your markets, get out of T1 ammo. It's selling below cost just about everywhere these days. I have an alt finally at perfect refining/reprocessing, and play to start buying up below cost crap just to refine for minerals when I'm running low and I can save enough over build costs.


ps: and no, I'm not interested in any booolshite "my minerals are free!" horse-$hit from either side. I pay attention to my wallet, and nothing else matters.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac