These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Alternative to the missile Nerf, meta-game friendly Without ruining missiles in PVP
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#1 - 2012-09-19 17:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodes Reynolds
I'm going to admit I was originally pissed at this announcement. but then I got to thinking there is a problem with missiles. There is no counter to missiles in the meta-game. That doesn't cripple you against everything else. I don't think CCP really want to render an entire Missile section of their skills completely useless in PVP. Post a change CCP are also rendering target painters obsolete. Because tracking computers will do their job better, because of their ability to install scripts you have a wide the range of options.

It got me thinking there is a couple modules in the don't get used. Because in their current form their useless, now one in particular seems to jump to mind once upon a time CCP had a concept called defender missiles, this was an ill-suited concept because it only targeted missiles fired at you and it would pretty much kill it one-to-one ratio. the thought was rolling around in my head for a while. And it came to me

Instead nerffing missiles charge the Defender missile concept make it a module for a mid-slot that destroys incoming missiles, the amount of missiles destroyed is based the amount of missiles that are incoming and a random chance. You can install scripts one script that increases the effectiveness of it defending you, and another script that projects its effects to the people surrounding you, let's say x kilometers, X being whatever number is balanced.

This would give the balance you are seeking, by giving a counter to missiles, some similar to a tracking disruptor, while adding a level of meta-gaming and pulling concepts/skill is currently in the game but not being used for absolutely anything from the proverbial graveyard giving people a reason to train it.


The alternative is your your rendering all your missile boats, your missile skills. Useless in any player versus player engagement. And they won't be used in PVE by any player that doesn't already have the skills be is a will be pointless to train after the change.


TL:DR read the bold text
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#2 - 2012-09-19 17:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodes Reynolds
double post sorry, meant to edit for spelling mistakes, grammar etc.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#3 - 2012-09-19 22:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Midslots are incredibly hard to come by in most pvp ship doctrines.

I cant think of any ship I would ever place defender missiles as a mid-slot on under your proposal unless you already massively outnumber the enemy. Killing one missile every 5 seconds, when the enemy is firing 6 of them every 4 seconds? No thanks, not worth losing a tank slot for shield tanks or a cap booster/target painter/TD/eccm for armor tanks.

Also, if you think that TP's are worthless, your smoking something. In a large fleet, EVERYONE can fit a tracking computer, sacrificing a mid-slot, or a FEW guys can be flying bonused TP ships. lets see... 300 slots mid-slots sacrificed in a typical goon drake gang gang, or just add a few hughins. Wonder which one is more effective overall.

Also, defender missile's that hit missiles directed an nearby ships? badbadbad. Currently a smaller gang with good ships and experience has an advantage against a larger less coordinated gang IN SOME FEW SITUATIONS. I have seen 100 man tengu gangs run rings around 300+ man drake gangs picking them off one at a time while kiting just inside warp range, for example.

With defenders on the drakeblob, 3 out of every 5 missiles would be destroyed. Screw player skill, eliminate one more avenue that a better coordinated group with superior equipment has of possibly coming out ahead. 60% of the tengu fleets DPS cut out by one mod fit to each drake. Bad game design, would hurt missile PvP even more than the incoming nerf. Just haul along a dozen 7 defender missile launcher + MWD armor tanks with each anti drake fleet.

And a bit of a nerf was needed, though the planned ones may be a bit excessive.
Near BS level tank with 400 dps at 80km, fast, and a large max capacitor for a 70 mil isk ship is a bit unbalanced. And before you start spouting, yes, I know all their counters and weaknesses already. That they can be countered fairly effectively with certain methods does not mean that they were balanced.
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#4 - 2012-09-20 21:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodes Reynolds
Before I start, before I start ripping in to your assumptions, under the startup by saying I like a good argument, and I'll argue intelligently and respectfully as long as you do the same.

Anhenka wrote:
Killing one missile every 5 seconds, when the enemy is firing 6 of them every 4 seconds? No thanks, not worth losing a tank slot for shield tanks or a cap booster/target painter/TD/eccm for armor tanks.
that is not what I said at all.

Asmodes Reynolds wrote:
A module for a mid-slot that destroys incoming missiles, the amount of missiles destroyed is based the amount of missiles that are incoming and a random chance. You can install scripts one script that increases the effectiveness of it defending you, and another script that projects its effects to the people surrounding you, let's say x kilometers, X being whatever number is balanced.


The module will destroy, all/portion/none based based on a random chance that CCP works out, these scripts you can use simply either increase your chances of being defended, or lessen the chances but projecting that same effect out x kilometers around you. the module does not have to fire a missile if that's because load on the server. They can rename it missile defender, I don't really care what the graphic. the concept being very similar to tracking disruptors. I know the mechanic is a little different, but the fine details can be worked out. CCP intends on making affect missiles be affected by tracking disruption ( see quote below) as well, instead of always bringing tracking disruptors, that you're good against every type of ship they can field against you (CCP bad at balance, and making unique mechanics) you would have to choose between this module, and it tracking disruptor.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and increases explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029&p=1 (in case you want to check its accuracy)

And because you want to play the effect game, your fleet is facing a drake gang let's say 200, and you fit at bunch of ships with this new module(area scripted) and keep them out by your logistics and/or booster, other utility ships so that only a portion of the DPS those ships giving you more survivability, so that they so they repair the ships that ships with high buffer, the ships like recon ships and an interdictor's could hit the module giving the logistics more time to get reps on..

The major difference between missiles and the other DPS platforms, is that missiles have the same chance of hit no matter the range,drake can engage at close range if fighting something designed for long-range, and longer out after fighting something that is designed for close range, where where the other three DPS platforms dictate the range that you have to be based on their optimal/tracking speed.

Anhenka wrote:
Also, if you think that TP's are worthless, your smoking something. In a large fleet, EVERYONE can fit a tracking computer, sacrificing a mid-slot, or a FEW guys can be flying bonused TP ships. lets see... 300 slots mid-slots sacrificed in a typical goon drake gang gang, or just add a few hughins. Wonder which one is more effective overall.


The reason why I said, that target painters would be useless is no one in their right mind is going to be using missiles as her damage platform post-patch. Rendering the target painter basically useless. They're already going to have to sacrifice a mid-slot to a tracking computer, to make the missiles useful anyways. 20% reduction in range can easily be fixed by a scripted tracking computer. and also all those target painters will not have the same effect because they have diminishing returns on the target. one tracking enhancer with tracking speed script does not suffer diminishing returns with all the ships around it. The math says more total DPS will reach the small target.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Light Missiles
-Explosion radius reduced from 50 to 40
-Damage increased by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant light missiles, including FOF.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.

Tech Two Missiles
-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we'll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
-Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius)
Precision: Improve bonuses to explosion velocity and explosion radius, increase damage to match T1 missiles, reduce flight time slightly
Fury: Increase damage, increase the severity of penalties to explosion radius and velocity
Javelin: Just remove ship penalties
Rage: Reduce range, increase damage slightly


As far as your comment about the drake blog, with defender missiles. Don't fight them with missile boats, use Foxcat or non-missile based doctrine. That's what I meant by a meta-game friendly. and if your enemy knows that you're using non-missile ships they can being tracking disruptors, if they think you're bringing missile base ships they will bring this module. CCP's Nerf will make it default to tracking disruptors no matter what you're facing. How is that better?

I can see the reasoning for everything else except for the damage reduction. Most missile boats besides the tengu can't get over 400 DPS while still fitting a tank. But again it's CCP,
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#5 - 2012-09-20 22:35:40 UTC
While I tried to read your post it mostly came down to a rambaling mess. I want to point out a very important peice of the new way missiles will work that changes everything when it comes to missiles.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and increases explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time

These right here is a massive missile buff. To a extent that would have been game breaking if HM had not gotten the bat. Suddenly HAMs can reach out to 60km and torps 80km, and when they get close hit them with far greater damage than was previously possible. Cruise missiles can hit smaller ships at range. Also the capital missile will finally be able to hit moving targets. This is a massive buff to all the missiles save the HM, which by some of the numbers I ran can be compensated for by dropping some tank. (Which was part of the problem ccp was trying to fix with the ships themselves)

While I will morn the great missioning tengu, and simple drake like everyone else, I am more excited by the more interesting and emergent gameplay that will come of this. All the missiles, not just the HM, are now going to see use in PVP and PVE to a far greater extent.


PS(the numbers above are assuming that the same range % for guns will apply to missiles.)
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#6 - 2012-09-21 17:17:45 UTC
Onslaughtor wrote:
While I tried to read your post it mostly came down to a rambaling mess. I want to point out a very important peice of the new way missiles will work that changes everything when it comes to missiles.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and increases explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time

These right here is a massive missile buff. To a extent that would have been game breaking if HM had not gotten the bat. Suddenly HAMs can reach out to 60km and torps 80km, and when they get close hit them with far greater damage than was previously possible. Cruise missiles can hit smaller ships at range. Also the capital missile will finally be able to hit moving targets. This is a massive buff to all the missiles save the HM, which by some of the numbers I ran can be compensated for by dropping some tank. (Which was part of the problem ccp was trying to fix with the ships themselves)

While I will morn the great missioning tengu, and simple drake like everyone else, I am more excited by the more interesting and emergent gameplay that will come of this. All the missiles, not just the HM, are now going to see use in PVP and PVE to a far greater extent.


PS(the numbers above are assuming that the same range % for guns will apply to missiles.)



my problem is isn't so much why they're doing the nerff it's how they're doing it, tracking computers and tracking disruptors should not affect missiles, for the reason it ruins the rock paper scissors balance of the game.

If they wish to have a module that serves that purpose they should make a "Missile navigation disruptor" or something with a similar name. That way you have to choose between the modules or sacrifice them in slot to fit both. the same goes for the local tracking computer should be like something like "Missile navigation Enhancer"
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#7 - 2012-09-21 18:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinzor Aumer
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1953272#post1953272
And in fact I start to think it could be really a script for the standard trackdis. Also, need to set some long script-recharge rate.