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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#1561 - 2012-09-19 17:39:19 UTC
I'm going to admit I was originally pissed at this announcement. but then I got to thinking there is a problem with missiles. There is no counter to missiles in the meta-game. It doesn't cripple you against everything else. I don't think you really want to render an entire section of your skills completely useless in PVP. Post a change you are rendering target painters obsolete. Because tracking computers will do their job better, because of their ability to install scripts you have a wide the range of options.

it got me thinking there is a couple modules in the don't get used. Because in their current form their useless, now one in particular seems to jump to mind once upon a time CCP had a concept called defender missiles, this was an ill-suited concept because it only targeted missiles fired at you and it would pretty much kill it one-to-one ratio. the thought was rolling around in my head for a while. And it came to me

Instead nerffing missiles charge the Defender missile concept make it a module for a mid-slot that destroys incoming missiles, the amount of missiles destroyed is based the amount of missiles that are incoming and a random chance. You can install scripts one script that increases the effectiveness of it defending you, and another script that projects its effects to the people surrounding you, let's say x kilometers, X being whatever number is balanced.

This would give the balance you are seeking, by giving a counter to missiles, some similar to a tracking disruptor, while adding a level of meta-gaming and pulling concepts/skill is currently in the game but not being used for absolutely anything from the proverbial graveyard giving people a reason to train it.


The alternative is your your rendering all your missile boats, your missile skills. Useless in any player versus player engagement. And they won't be used in PVE by any player that doesn't already have the skills be is a will be pointless to train after the change.
Tek Handle
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1562 - 2012-09-19 17:40:12 UTC
Nothing against the missile nerf, but tracking disruptable/enhancable missiles? Srsly? That makes absolutely no sense. It even makes the related modules a dumb jack of all trades device. Why not add new mods which work against missiles, respectively support them?

Support: E.g. Missile Speed Optimizer or Missile Fuel Compressor/Injector
Counter: E.g. a Missile (fits better in this case) Aircraft ECM, which affects the fired missile's speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_countermeasure wrote:
An electronic countermeasure (ECM) is an electrical or electronic device designed to trick or deceive radar, sonar or other detection systems, like infrared (IR) or lasers. It may be used both offensively and defensively to deny targeting information to an enemy. The system may make many separate targets appear to the enemy, or make the real target appear to disappear or move about randomly. It is used effectively to protect aircraft from guided missiles. Most air forces use ECM to protect their aircraft from attack. It has also been deployed by military ships and recently on some advanced tanks to fool laser/IR guided missiles. It is frequently coupled with stealth advances so that the ECM systems have an easier job. Offensive ECM often takes the form of jamming. Defensive ECM includes using blip enhancement and jamming of missile terminal homers.
Kinet
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1563 - 2012-09-19 17:41:09 UTC
Guess it is time to sell off my supply of Drakes and heavy missiles. Once this patch goes live you wont be able to give them away.

Good thing CCP spent the time to work on the missile launcher animations since after this patch most people will be avoiding them like the plague.

This nerf hurts more than just the Drake, what about all the other Caldari missile boats that are going to be turned into dust collectors after this patch? Reduce range by 25% and damage by 20%? Really?

Why didnt I roll a Minnie...
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#1564 - 2012-09-19 17:41:35 UTC
Onictus wrote:
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Cool well I'd be raising holy hell over the complete removal of all long range weapon missile platforms. But no, you have to keep your HML damage for some odd reason. What, did you forget to train the 8 days for HAM 5?

-Liang


It is more complicated then that.

I believe that there are 3 factors. Speed, range and damage. If one of those 3 is to low, it does not matter if the other 2 are the best. If you reduce damage to be the same as long rage medium guns, it wont matter what you do with the other 2 factors.

I ask again, do you think long range medium guns are used ? If no, then nerfing damage to long range guns power means the end of long range missiles.


Long range medium guns aren't really used because HML so utterly and completely dominate that field. Seeing some variety on the field will be a welcome addition.

-Liang
Let's see you fit some medium artilleries to a Hurricane with or without the proposed changes without gimping the fit.



Did you miss the post were all medium artiliery are taking a 10% grid reduction.....you don't need as much power to run them. You'll still be able to fit two HAM launchers on a 650 arty cane, you are going to have issues jamming two med neuts on anything though.

...and forget an armor cane. its pretty much dead. Viva la Cyclone.
I guess you missed the part where thew Hurricane gets a 13% grid reduction.

So medium artilleries are now harder to fit.






lol
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1565 - 2012-09-19 17:41:52 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:

I was thinking this too. No reason for HAMs to cost more in terms of fitting. Should be brought in line with the formula used on long and short ranged turrets


I think they will address this when they get to the drake itself in the balance pass.


I agree but the fitting of these missile systems should fall more in line of the way turret systems work short range less CPU/PG long range more CPU/PG. If you give the drake more CPU/PG to handle fitting the HAM then you will have even more when you fit HM and this is what some people are voicing there concerns over. I have to say I agree with them HAMS need a CPU/PG reduction.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1566 - 2012-09-19 17:42:03 UTC
Sophia Ban'ki wrote:
Well, even if I expect noone from CCP to read this, I want to point out, that there are also a few other things to be nerved if missiles are supposed to be turrets.

Surgical Strike (rank 4)
3% damage bonus on all turrets per level
Not just that the missile counterpart gives only 2% damage bonus per level it is also a rank 5 skill, meaning that it takes even longer to train.

Solution: Nerv/Adjust: the Surgical Strike skill to 2% bonus and make it a rank 5 skill as well.


Rapid Firing:
4% RoF per level
Same again, Rapid Launch is one again lower with 3% RoF bonus.

Solution: Nerv / Adjust Rapid Firing bonus to 3% RoF, to make them more eqal.


Missile Projection: (rank 4 - skill)
Bonus to all guided missiles, leaving unguided missiles unaffected.
Related Gunnery skills would be Motion Prediction, if we look at the planned TD changes.
Motion Prediction is just a rank 2 skill and it affects all turrets.

Solution: Nerv Motion Prediction, so that it no longer affects short range weapons (as unguided missiles are all considered short range) and rank 4 or adjust Missile Projection to affect all missiles.


Requirements for T2 need to be changed as well, T2 medium turrets require more skills than Heavy Missiles.
You should make sure that it also requires T2 Light Missiles in order to use T2 Heavy Missiles, otherwise it wouldn't be fair, would it?




Disclaimer: This post might contain traces of irony and sarcasm.



So since the missiles will ACT like the turrets.. can we get our skills to act like the turret counterparts too?
patrick elektros
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1567 - 2012-09-19 17:43:56 UTC
this is about CCP making more money, by making people train other skills and this nerfs people making in game money, in effect making it harder for people to pay for plex with in game isk. in effect hoping that people will in turn have to pay real money to play the game. ccp has been about making money, ad not about working with the players on some level fora while now. and this is aNERF on tengus and drakes, the 2 biggest ratting boats in the game.

you got an issue with this, let ccp know, make them rollback the nerf, but keep in mind walmart only rolls back items it's raise prices on first.

the moderate change would have been 7.5% reduction in missile damage and 5% in range. this wasnt against goons or anybody else, it was against all of us to pay more to play (notice plex prices at an all time high) and since the plex sellers are lookin to sell higher price plex and the plex buyers wont be able to make the money, maybe plexes will drop, but i doubt it.


CCP keep in mind we will find better fits for better ships, no matter what you do you need to remember that nerfing pvp/pve ships and buffering industrials is the first step to being like wow, and your sandbox will get sludge in it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1568 - 2012-09-19 17:45:24 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


I was following you right up until you claimed that a 36k EHP tank was equivalent to a 100k EHP tank.

-Liang



In the initial post on wich you replied i clearly stated that these changes to HML will not promote HAM use on ships that have bonuses for HAM RML and HML Takeing in range and damage in consideration RML with these changes allow for better tanks on those ships and are still able to shoot to (extreme) long ranges Also due the light missile vs the heavy assault missile, the real damage difference vs verry fast and / or small ships will be significantly closer to eachother On these ships i don't think anyone would chose for the HAM.

The reference to the drake was only to show what would happen if people were to chose range + effective hp vs damage
NOT to compare the caracal with the drake


Hmmm, I see. I think you're partially correct. AML is absolutely a viable weapons system on ships which have a bonus for it. People will be able to fit AML Caracals up with relatively large tanks and engage from long range. This is exactly the one of the niches that the Caracal is designed to fill. However, to claim that nobody will use HAMs "up close" seems a bit wrong.

HAM range is sufficient to engage at the edge of Loki boosted point range and gets, as you say, 98% more DPS. Speaking from experience, range can most certainly be your tank in small gang warfare where these tactics would be most useful. Furthermore, you'll actually be able to point someone and contribute to the gang instead of just engage from 100km+.

So yeah, to claim nobody's going to use HAMs because HML is being nerfed is just wrong. Even on ships that have a bonus to all three weapons systems.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
OlRotGut
#1569 - 2012-09-19 17:45:35 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
Fozzie I call you a madman and a hero for reading through all this so I think its only fair I make an attempt at a reasoned response.

all told... I approve of the suggested changes hand over fist and I'm more than happy to accept that caldari WILL be getting better pvp platforms based on the continuing balance changes in the form of the upcoming "combat" moa and the eventual rebalancing of the ferox as well. the cane needed a kick in the teeth I reckon as did the drake and tengu, these changes handle this nicely. after all, just because caldari don't have "viable" pvp platforms now at least by the standards of nullblob types it doesn't mean that they WON'T come these changes, after all its impossible to argue that the merlin isn't by far the most dangerous of the "combat" frigate platforms at the moment and I'm eager to see how the Moa is going to shape up as a possible upgrade of the Merlin hull with 5% hybrid damage/RoF and 5% resist/level.

in compensation however I do agree that slightly more love might be in favour of the heavy assault launchers as they take over the roll as primary "close range" missile platform. while this may be covered by the changes to tracking enhancers and tracking computers I think an improvement in explosion speed might be worthwhile regardless in order to support other ships which will be equiping this weapon, most notably the new caracal which will no doubt be adopted by us RVB types as a 30-40km dps support platform for our gudfights.

its also an interesting point that these changes may leave heavy missile operating ships with little recourse in closer ranges where gun platform ships may switch down to close range ammo to help deal with closer targets. it would seem like a reasonable suggestion then to offer an alternative ammunition type with higher damage but significantly reduced range. the T2 missiles would seem like an easy choice for this though their harder to access nature may restrict them. what I would personally propose would be taking the "fury" missile concept and pushing it to a further extreme with the missile changes fluffed along the lines of "rapid burn" response missiles for defense. much shorter range, higher damage but with a vastly accelerated flight speed (the missile doing a quick short burn then adding its remaining fuel to the payload). some way for the heavy missile equipped ships to defend themselves at closer ranges would be most welcome to a lot of people in this threadnought. cut the range a little bit more, buff the damage but keep a large explosion radius so that fury missiles act as a defense against other battlecruisers (or even cruisers if you've got TE's/TC's to improve ER/ES) but at substantially shorter ranges while precision ammo still acts as the anti frigate option. the T2 ammo types adding versitility to the platform as it

TL:DR like the proposed changes, but some more love for HAMS, BCU's and the "split" tracking disruptors seems in
order



I do like your thoughts on the different ammos for HML's to bring them more in line with the turrets. If they could change the ammo types of the missiles to behave more like turret charges, then, they could balance the missile platforms a little better towards everything.

I always thought it was a little screwy that missiles and turrets were different in that regard.


Also as someone else posted above, I think it would be wise to take a look at the gunnery "support" skills, vs the Missile Launcher "support" skills. Bringing them more in line with one another.
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1570 - 2012-09-19 17:46:53 UTC
The HAM Drake is pretty 0wnzone without a boost, and it's getting a boost with T2 missile changes. Capless weapons, ~600-650 deeps, two-slot tackle, MWD, 130k EHP. It's only /slightly/ out DPS'd by a Harbinger, but even that goes out the window if you try to give the Harb the same buffer as a Drake.

~
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1571 - 2012-09-19 17:47:34 UTC
Kinet wrote:
Guess it is time to sell off my supply of Drakes and heavy missiles. Once this patch goes live you wont be able to give them away.

Good thing CCP spent the time to work on the missile launcher animations since after this patch most people will be avoiding them like the plague.

This nerf hurts more than just the Drake, what about all the other Caldari missile boats that are going to be turned into dust collectors after this patch? Reduce range by 25% and damage by 20%? Really?


If the patch comes and you can't find anyone to give all of your Caldari assets to, I will gladly pay 1 ISK per 100 ISK of today's market value for all of it. TYVM, TIA.

Quote:
Why didnt I roll a Minnie...


Because you didn't want to roll a race with ****** mechanics that's by and large getting anally ****** by the rebalance?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1572 - 2012-09-19 17:48:02 UTC


To give a serious recommendation.


I don't think Friend or Foe Missiles should be affected by Tracking Disruptors.

If the computational system is on the FOF missile and FOF is partially to counteract ECM, then the FOF missiles shouldn't suffer from TD penalties.

Just throwing that out there.

Then again, noone uses FOF because their target selection is totally trash.

But, you know. Principles and all that. P

Where I am.
patrick elektros
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1573 - 2012-09-19 17:51:09 UTC
the hurricane nerf is in my opinion unnecessary, but it's because some one in ccp don't like em like that, no more welp canes without implants and near perfect skills, no more instacanes without extra pg mods/rigs and less insta

meh

silly nerf in my point of view, as the canes weren't really being used that much, but i think this was done in effect to balance out the drake nerf
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1574 - 2012-09-19 17:51:35 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


To give a serious recommendation.


I don't think Friend or Foe Missiles should be affected by Tracking Disruptors.

If the computational system is on the FOF missile and FOF is partially to counteract ECM, then the FOF missiles shouldn't suffer from TD penalties.

Just throwing that out there.

Then again, noone uses FOF because their target selection is totally trash.

But, you know. Principles and all that. P


Heh, I kinda like it. Also, the way to use FOFs is to MWD straight at your target and sit on their face. Works pretty well for Falcons that let you do it. Otherwise you'll just end up shooting drones. :(

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Atomic Option
NO Tax FAT Stacks
#1575 - 2012-09-19 17:56:44 UTC
I am sad that the tengu I recently trained into will not be as OP for clearing 10/10 DED complexes, but the math is undeniable. These changes are for the best, and props to CCP for sticking to their guns (so to speak) in the face of unfortunately unjustifiable tears.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1576 - 2012-09-19 17:57:42 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Liang Nuren wrote:
The other ships become much more viable once HML stops dominating the **** out of the entire LR cruiser weapon field.

-Liang

I really don't get why people keep saying this. I didn't compare beams or rails to HMLs when I said "these are total ****, why would I ever use them?" On their own they're awful and need a buff or people won't use them any more just because HMs are being nerfed. The only thing that's going to happen now is that long range combat will be solely in the domain of artillery and rare but specific applications of rails (Nagas, Rokhtrine).

The range nerf is reasonable, 10% damage nerf would also be reasonable on top of that. Giving missiles comparable DPS ignores their many counters (plus one with this patch).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1577 - 2012-09-19 17:59:39 UTC
fozzie - You wanted as much details as we can, so here you go:

1. You nerf two things: range (we are talking about LONG RANGE WEAPON) and Damage at the same time, how about leaving at least one feature unchanged?

2. Effect of that is we should start using HAM's for short range, big damage, but at the same time HAM's suffer even greatly than HML's from flight time restriction. its imposible to hit something even remotly close to your range limit - because of the flight time the enemy will simply escape before missile reach target - imagine running after someone trying to get away from point range

3. HAM's have terrible explosion velocity and radius - as short range weapon it should hit relatively smaller targets than HML's- not larger.



So the effect of that situation is this: we get long range, decent dps weapon system turned into medium range, terrible damage weapond, and we are instead have to use huge damage (with the buff you mentioned) weapon that can not hit anything

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#1578 - 2012-09-19 17:59:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The other ships become much more viable once HML stops dominating the **** out of the entire LR cruiser weapon field.

-Liang

I really don't get why people keep saying this. I didn't compare beams or rails to HMLs when I said "these are total ****, why would I ever use them?" On their own they're awful and need a buff or people won't use them any more just because HMs are being nerfed. The only thing that's going to happen now is that long range combat will be solely in the domain of artillery and rare but specific applications of rails (Nagas, Rokhtrine).
So much this. People don't not-use medium rails because HML drakes are soooo good, they don't use them because they're **** and nerfing HMLs won't change that
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1579 - 2012-09-19 18:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
NM.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
spellbound spirit
#1580 - 2012-09-19 18:01:14 UTC
Cane is simply too good, and these changes might actually do some good to command ships usage.

Next thing they're gonna nerf will be skirmish boosts, farewell DS.-like drake gangs?

One sad thing about not only this but CCP direction overall is that they seem to promote blobs more and more, instaed of well put and executed small/medium gangs/tactics, not to mention their goal of killing solo.

P.S
So when is ECM drones nerf coming?