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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Author
Achaiah7
Perkone
Caldari State
#1301 - 2012-09-19 13:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Achaiah7
Wow CCP no words can summarize the ignorance/stupidity of devs. I could possibly live with hml changes (though hml damage already sucks) but TD on missiles? Seriously? Do you guys really think that mixing platform types is really a good idea?

I loved the whole idea of having two different dmg platforms with two different mechanics. Guns can be tracking-disrupted, missiles can be outrun, defended against with other missiles or smart bombed. But TD missiles? Wth were you thinking?
Signal11th
#1302 - 2012-09-19 13:32:08 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
65 pages, i so do not envy the CCP Fozzie for having through look through all of this to find the good comments..

I really do hope they don't back down on their changes just because people are afraid of having their **** nerfed.

Especially since the TE/TC changes more than make up for it on most missile ships really...



Yeah would be a shame if seemingly the majority (in this thread anyway) were overuled to satisfy the minority. God Forbid.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#1303 - 2012-09-19 13:32:54 UTC
For CCP Fonzie's read through.

Keep going, only half way through.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1304 - 2012-09-19 13:33:46 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
MIrple wrote:


People have adapted to many changes in EVE and there has never been a SP reimbursement. This Change will not make any skill you trained unusable only changes how items work. If you need further reference please ask all the Nano pilots if they got there skill points back when they nerfed that.


Because it takes as long as it does to train all missiles (or even just heavy missiles and the respective damage/range modifier skills) to V to train for T2 nanos (which you can get 2 hours into starting a new character)



Will your skills still allow you to use missiles and the only Missile that is getting nerfed is the HM so yes its a pretty even skill train match up. Heavy Missile V High Speed Maneuvering V don't see how this is all that different.


No, all missiles are getting nerfed because they instantly have less DPS just from a TD, which isnt the case for TDs on guns.


So firing guns when being TD and hitting in falloff is not less DPS? News to me.
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#1305 - 2012-09-19 13:34:53 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
65 pages, i so do not envy the CCP Fozzie for having through look through all of this to find the good comments..

I really do hope they don't back down on their changes just because people are afraid of having their **** nerfed.

Especially since the TE/TC changes more than make up for it on most missile ships really...



Yeah would be a shame if seemingly the majority (in this thread anyway) were overuled to satisfy the minority. God Forbid.

I was up to page 36 when I logged last night. Damn sleep! I got a lot of reading to catch up on!

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#1306 - 2012-09-19 13:35:24 UTC
Callidus Dux wrote:
MIrple wrote:

Will your skills still allow you to use missiles and the only Missile that is getting nerfed is the HM so yes its a pretty even skill train match up. Heavy Missile V High Speed Maneuvering V don't see how this is all that different.


You missed that TD will affect Missiles. THIS in combination with defenders and smartbombs leads to a destruction of missiles as a whole weapon system!


If only we could see those smartbombing anti-missile firewalling ships outside of null warefare
If only we could see someone, who actually uses defenders
If only you could fit one of those TEs/TCs on your missile boats just like all other boats had to do all this time

Roll
Signal11th
#1307 - 2012-09-19 13:37:35 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
65 pages, i so do not envy the CCP Fozzie for having through look through all of this to find the good comments..

I really do hope they don't back down on their changes just because people are afraid of having their **** nerfed.

Especially since the TE/TC changes more than make up for it on most missile ships really...



Yeah would be a shame if seemingly the majority (in this thread anyway) were overuled to satisfy the minority. God Forbid.

I was up to page 36 when I logged last night. Damn sleep! I got a lot of reading to catch up on!



To be honest most of it is utter bollocks, basically most of the changes are pretty good one or two aren't really and its those that are getting repeatedly argued over.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1308 - 2012-09-19 13:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
MIrple wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
MIrple wrote:


People have adapted to many changes in EVE and there has never been a SP reimbursement. This Change will not make any skill you trained unusable only changes how items work. If you need further reference please ask all the Nano pilots if they got there skill points back when they nerfed that.


Because it takes as long as it does to train all missiles (or even just heavy missiles and the respective damage/range modifier skills) to V to train for T2 nanos (which you can get 2 hours into starting a new character)



Will your skills still allow you to use missiles and the only Missile that is getting nerfed is the HM so yes its a pretty even skill train match up. Heavy Missile V High Speed Maneuvering V don't see how this is all that different.


No, all missiles are getting nerfed because they instantly have less DPS just from a TD, which isnt the case for TDs on guns.


So firing guns when being TD and hitting in falloff is not less DPS? News to me.


Yes, but you can fix that by piloting, you can't with missiles. You just do less damage no matter the circumstances. Maybe making them move slower will fix a bit, but you can't really MAKE someone move slower, unless you have the modules to do it. It isn't really fair that one weapon system can pilot their way around an EWAR and the other one has to fit towards it.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

HorseEve
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1309 - 2012-09-19 13:40:39 UTC
When this patch is released, can we also get options to get our skillpoints back for the entirety of any training that went into the Caldari Race? You guys are removing the only reason people used heavy missiles. You are removing the only reason people flew drakes. You are removing the most useful ship for any new players that you are supposedly trying to get more of. You are reducing the crappy damage of an already crappy platform.

So, If I can get my Caldari skill points back I would lvoe to go fly other races that matter! Especially the new mid slot layout of the Thorax. On a bright note everyone, most of these new cruiser layouts can kill the new drake layout!
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1310 - 2012-09-19 13:44:40 UTC


[/quote]Yes, but you can fix that by piloting, you can't with missiles. You just do less damage no matter the circumstances. Maybe making them move slower will fix a bit, but you can't really MAKE someone move slower, unless you have the modules to do it. It isn't really fair that one weapon system can pilot their way around an EWAR and the other one has to fit towards it.[/quote]

You cant fix falloff by piloting unless you mean closing range. Hey guess what you can fix missiles the same way then also. Your argument on this is weak as now you suffer the same issues that turret pilots can face out in space. TD are being changed this winter also so hold on the sky is not falling at the moment.
Willie Horton
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1311 - 2012-09-19 13:44:43 UTC
HorseEve wrote:
When this patch is released, can we also get options to get our skillpoints back for the entirety of any training that went into the Caldari Race? You guys are removing the only reason people used heavy missiles. You are removing the only reason people flew drakes. You are removing the most useful ship for any new players that you are supposedly trying to get more of. You are reducing the crappy damage of an already crappy platform.

So, If I can get my Caldari skill points back I would lvoe to go fly other races that matter! Especially the new mid slot layout of the Thorax. On a bright note everyone, most of these new cruiser layouts can kill the new drake layout!


How come?Do you know what ship bonuses Drake will have ?Did you and any of us test that ship on SiSi?

This all sounds "OMG Blizzard you nerfed my paladin I could kill easy all classes and now they kill me ",rally WTF this game community more and more looks like WoW one.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#1312 - 2012-09-19 13:45:51 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:

Yes, but you can fix that by piloting, you can't with missiles. You just do less damage.


That is the main difference between missiles and turrets. Missiles are easier because transversal is irrelevant. You don't have control over it. There is a reason why missile boats are considered noob friendly compared to turret boats.
You can't get the same maximal effectiveness from both turrets and missiles if the latter involves less skill and effort ( things which are essential for manual piloting ).

Giving you the ability to actually influence this factor ( through piloting ) would need a total rework of missiles.
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1313 - 2012-09-19 13:46:48 UTC
Willie Horton wrote:
HorseEve wrote:
When this patch is released, can we also get options to get our skillpoints back for the entirety of any training that went into the Caldari Race? You guys are removing the only reason people used heavy missiles. You are removing the only reason people flew drakes. You are removing the most useful ship for any new players that you are supposedly trying to get more of. You are reducing the crappy damage of an already crappy platform.

So, If I can get my Caldari skill points back I would lvoe to go fly other races that matter! Especially the new mid slot layout of the Thorax. On a bright note everyone, most of these new cruiser layouts can kill the new drake layout!


How come?Do you know what ship bonuses Drake will have ?Did you and any of us test that ship on SiSi?

This all sounds "OMG Blizzard you nerfed my paladin I could kill easy all classes and now they kill me ",rally WTF this game community more and more looks like WoW one.



because the same **** happened in wow and nobody play that game anymore :D.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1314 - 2012-09-19 13:46:49 UTC
Every time I read a demand for skillpoint reimbursement because of a game rebalancing, I feel the urgent need to encounter the poster piloting a T3 and kill him.

Every time someone demands sp reimbursement on the forums, his main should be stripped of 100k sp Twisted

.

Lord Ryan
True Xero
#1315 - 2012-09-19 13:46:52 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
if the missle nerf goes ahead then tengu is gonna be the Nighthawk of the TIII's useless ****.


I like how you post this with no justification, yet I posted (with reasoning) why the Tengu may be solidified further solidified as the best mission runner.

-Liang


B/C everyone wants to run missions with 400dps boats that do **** all damage to smaller ships.

Not like the Golem is going to be heaps better now with the higher DPS, bonuses to hitting smaller ships, TP bonus, and TC/TE effects on larger missiles. Oh wait, there was that time long ago when LR torpedos were all the rage of Mission running... who knew they'd ever bring that back.


The HAM Tengu puts out > 1000 DPS, and will do so with better damage application and better range than ever before. Please learn how to fit a ship.

-Liang

Please send me your fit. I too would like to do 1000 DPS. With maxed skills I don't get half the DPS people claim to.

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.

Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1316 - 2012-09-19 13:50:24 UTC
You know, the more rage posts I read the more I think this nerf may not be too much.

All these rage posts talk about ALL missiles and ALL caldari now being useless.

Yet only Heavy Missiles have been changed and the TD change has plenty of counters (webs, painters, TCs, TEs).

If HMs really were so good that any other weapon system isn't even worthy of the consideration of Caldari players then I think the nerf might just be needed.
Willie Horton
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1317 - 2012-09-19 13:51:14 UTC
Recoil IV wrote:
Willie Horton wrote:
HorseEve wrote:
When this patch is released, can we also get options to get our skillpoints back for the entirety of any training that went into the Caldari Race? You guys are removing the only reason people used heavy missiles. You are removing the only reason people flew drakes. You are removing the most useful ship for any new players that you are supposedly trying to get more of. You are reducing the crappy damage of an already crappy platform.

So, If I can get my Caldari skill points back I would lvoe to go fly other races that matter! Especially the new mid slot layout of the Thorax. On a bright note everyone, most of these new cruiser layouts can kill the new drake layout!


How come?Do you know what ship bonuses Drake will have ?Did you and any of us test that ship on SiSi?

This all sounds "OMG Blizzard you nerfed my paladin I could kill easy all classes and now they kill me ",rally WTF this game community more and more looks like WoW one.



because the same **** happened in wow and nobody play that game anymore :D.


No you are so wrong .There was totally different reason ,but that is not topic here.Point is missile ships will get tools to control explosive radius and optimal and that is what they never had.If you check how they are changing Kestrel and Caracal ,than you will see that there is no more kinetic bonus so all damage mods will do same dmg and that is awesom.Gallente and Ammar dont have that option for example.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1318 - 2012-09-19 13:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Good afternoon everyone. I know some people have been wondering if I'm still following the thread, so let me assure you that I have read every single post so far and I plan to keep that up.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to let us know your opinions on these proposals. It's great to see so much passion from our customers, and I hope I'll be able to demonstrate from now to December and beyond how much I appreciate all your dedication.

I will ask everyone to please keep your feedback and your interactions with each other civil. Remember that this is the Features and Ideas forum, not the wild untamed expanse of General Discussion or the brutal gladiatorial pit of CAOD. This is the section of the forums where intellectual equals meet in mutual admiration to calmly and rationally discuss potential changes to the game, muse casually about overnight interest rates, and sip tea with our pinky extended.
Feedback is always more useful when it includes details about the problems you foresee from a specific change.
  • "I don't agree with change X because I believe it will have effect Y for reasons A, B and C" is excellent and very persuasive feedback and I thank the large numbers of you who have provided this kind of feedback so far.
  • "DIE IN A FIRE" is an example of significantly less useful feedback. It doesn't tell us which changes you object to, or what the reasons for your position are. In fact it even makes it hard to tell whether you actually object to the content of the change or are just experiencing an unusually strong craving for S'mores.

Also remember that nothing posted in this forum is ever set in stone at the time of posting. We are committed to making strong balance changes to your spaceships and we are willing to work with you all to realize that goal.


I'm going to cover a few of the themes I'm seeing in the feedback so far in a Q&A format. I don't have any adjustments to the proposal to announce at this time, but there are a few tweaks I'm mulling over at the moment.

[list]
  • The damage per second of heavy missile ships like the Drake seems low, why are you making it even lower?
  • I believe the main source of disagreement here comes from comparisons between Heavy Missiles (a long range weapon platform) and short range weapons like autocannons or blasters. Once upon a time Heavy Missiles were the only medium missile system, and therefore shared features from both close range and long range weapons. Later Heavy Assault Missiles were introduced and were quite good, but Heavy Missiles still overshadowed them since they did similar damage at close range and HMs had the advantage of steller long range performance. There are legitimate problems with many long range weapon systems at the medium size, but the fact that people have gotten used to comparing Heavy Missiles with short range guns should be taken as one of the signs that Heavies are far too good.

  • Why are you nerfing the weapon system when the real problem is two ships?
  • It is true that the use of heavy missiles is very strongly concentrated on the Drake and Tengu at this time. There are some problems with those ships that will need to be solved in time, and we also need to make ships like the Caracal, Cerb and Nighthawk more viable with Heavy Missiles. But doing that rebalance requires a stable foundation to build upon, and the truth is that Heavy Missiles were skewing the balance of everything they touched. The fact that the Drake is so dominant at long range damage when it has no range bonus, and the weakest damage bonus we give ships (5% per level to just one damage type) makes balancing through the ships themselves unfeasible. Once we get Heavy Missiles to some semblance of balance we can begin the work of making sure each individual ship is viable without having to go back and redo our work right away to compensate for a midstream weapon change.

  • Why nerf things when you could buff things instead?
  • When we are balancing in a game like Eve we always need to be concious of the danger presented by power creep. In some games where the progression is tied to ever advancing gear stats power creep isn't a big issue as it is built into the whole premise of the game. In a sandbox like Eve player advancement is tied to individual freeform goals and we need to make sure that the tools available are both interesting and balanced. Any time we buff something in Eve, we are nerfing every other item in the game slightly by extension. In a case like this we believe that the best course of action is to adjust the Heavy Missiles downwards to achieve balance.

  • It seems obvious that these changes are biased in favour of the Goons! Is that true?
  • Nope, we make balance decisions based on the ships and modules themselves not political blocs in game.

  • It seems obvious that these changes are biased against the Goons! Is that true?
  • Nope, we make balance decisions based on the ships and modules themselves not political blocs in game.

  • Can CCP reimburse skillpoints to people who have trained missiles?
  • In a MMO like Eve balance does change from time to time and skills will not be reimbursed unless their use is being removed from the game. If you believe that these changes make missiles useless then let us know why in as much detail as possible and if we agree the solution won't be to reimburse skills, it will be to adjust the proposal so that missiles are no longer made useless. Heavy missiles were the first medium weapon system I ever trained when I started playing Eve, and I have made excellent use of them through the years so I understand how good it feels to have skills invested in an extremely powerful weapon system. Most people who have been playing the game for a while can name a few times it has felt like their playstyle has been nerfed, because by definition the overpowered areas of the...

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

    Recoil IV
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #1319 - 2012-09-19 13:52:06 UTC
    Willie Horton wrote:
    Recoil IV wrote:
    Willie Horton wrote:
    HorseEve wrote:
    When this patch is released, can we also get options to get our skillpoints back for the entirety of any training that went into the Caldari Race? You guys are removing the only reason people used heavy missiles. You are removing the only reason people flew drakes. You are removing the most useful ship for any new players that you are supposedly trying to get more of. You are reducing the crappy damage of an already crappy platform.

    So, If I can get my Caldari skill points back I would lvoe to go fly other races that matter! Especially the new mid slot layout of the Thorax. On a bright note everyone, most of these new cruiser layouts can kill the new drake layout!


    How come?Do you know what ship bonuses Drake will have ?Did you and any of us test that ship on SiSi?

    This all sounds "OMG Blizzard you nerfed my paladin I could kill easy all classes and now they kill me ",rally WTF this game community more and more looks like WoW one.



    because the same **** happened in wow and nobody play that game anymore :D.


    No you are so wrong .There was totally different reason ,but that is not topic here.Point is missile ships will get tools to control explosive radius and optimal and that is what they never had.If you check how they are changing Kestrel and Caracal ,than you will see that there is no more kinetic bonus so all damage mods will do same dmg and that is awesom.Gallente and Ammar dont have that option for example.



    yes and no.gallente and amarr has 3x times the dps of rockets/missiles and so on
    Deerin
    East Trading Co Ltd
    #1320 - 2012-09-19 13:52:31 UTC
    The HM's were too good for damage projection to begin with. This nerf just puts them back in line. Should've been done a long time ago.

    ....and to all whiners who are planning to unsubscribe because of HM nerf.

    Can I haz your stuff??

    Javelin loaded HAM's are the new HM's.