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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1041 - 2012-09-19 06:43:52 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
[
The new Powergrid would allow a 800mm Steel plate 2 if my estimates are correct. That is a LOT less tank.
I am not satisfied with these changes.

Why? You gonna have less overtank than before, it's a good thing. 800mm plate should be the biggest one available for cruisers/battlecruisers anyway.


If you fight solo with agression at a gate in lowsec 1600mm is just about enough to finish a fight with another BC and if you win BARLEY get out near structure.

Another BC, which is in turn overtanked? Cool story Cool

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1042 - 2012-09-19 06:44:53 UTC
Errand Girl wrote:
Speaking as a relatively new pilot who doesn't have 50 million+ SP and had the misfortune to choose Caldari... What am I supposed to fly now? HMLs already have fairly weak DPS and a 20% damage nerf means that my ship options for both PVE and PVP are totally gimped.

Drakes have too much tank, fine. HMLs have too much range, fine. But the damage nerf means all Caldari cruiser and battlecruiser hulls now pretty much suck. I realize that drake blobs are an issue in null sec, but seriously.... find a way to nerf drake blobs without totally hosing carebears and small gang PVPers.

As a young player, I have very little cross training. I'm all Caldari ship skills and all missiles. Now I'm looking at what? 6+ months of training before I can be good at flying another race's ships and using another races weapons? Maybe that's not a long time to a lot of vets around here (who are much more likely to be well cross-trained already), but to a 1 year player that's a very long time. I'll wait until the final changes are announced, but I would very seriously consider quitting EVE rather than throwing away the millions of SP I have in soon-to-be-worthless crap, plus basically starting over on my ship/gun progression.


Three things:
- The Drake does not have low DPS by any stretch of the imagination.
- Caldari will be fine in PVP.
- Caldari is likely going to be improved in PVE with the TE/TC changes.

-Laing

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Eckyy
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1043 - 2012-09-19 06:46:28 UTC
Changes seem kinda steep to me too.

Know what's not in line with missiles? Heavies are easier to fit than HAMs. Swap fittings between the two, fix T2 missiles, and give the Drake and Tengu a slight nerf. Amarr t2 might need a slight fittings n

I worry about ships like the Caracal and Cerberus. Don't forget that there are (already useless) Gallente T2 cruisers that use heavies because they can't fit HAMs.
Xenetex
DigitalKhaos
#1044 - 2012-09-19 06:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Xenetex
AttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttention

AttentionAttention YO FOZZIE AttentionAttention

AttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttention



Will we be able to increase the range of HAMs with TCs or will they only work with "guided" missiles?
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#1045 - 2012-09-19 06:50:31 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
[
The new Powergrid would allow a 800mm Steel plate 2 if my estimates are correct. That is a LOT less tank.
I am not satisfied with these changes.

Why? You gonna have less overtank than before, it's a good thing. 800mm plate should be the biggest one available for cruisers/battlecruisers anyway.


If you fight solo with agression at a gate in lowsec 1600mm is just about enough to finish a fight with another BC and if you win BARLEY get out near structure.

Another BC, which is in turn overtanked? Cool story Cool


No, does not have to be overtanked as in 90% of the cases I will have the agression and the gate guns against me. It can also be a active tanked BC. Right now i can mitigate this by using cycled neuts on an active armor tanked BC and hope he eventually rans out of cap, cap boosters or his cycle is disturbed. It is already nearly impossible to agress a double ancilary shield booster cyclone in a Buffer armor cane at a gate with guns against you if you do it solo.
TBO its a buff for falcons :-D. If you want to fly Armor Hurricane - use a falcon Alt....or a scorp outside gategun range.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Shaqil
Duck and Cover
#1046 - 2012-09-19 06:51:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaqil
There is no need to nerf LSE+425mm hurricane. It's popular in 0.0 mainly because of it's speed, in lowsec triple rep myrm is more popular and HAM drake is generally good too. There is a problem with amarr BCs since harbinger's CPU is too low to fit LSEs and warp disruptor. You won't nerf hurricane just to boost weakest BC?
Nathan Ernaga
Applesauce Brigade
#1047 - 2012-09-19 06:51:30 UTC
CAAAAAANE!

If you have in your hands the key to the fulfillment of your life's ambition and superiority over most, if you are aware that there is an absolute power on hand (just over the basic moral principles) how far are you willing to go and through what you are willing to tread?
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#1048 - 2012-09-19 06:51:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm Down wrote:

Actually, I came right back at Fozzie with proof pudding.


Actually you continued to make completely unsupported assertions and provided no proof whatsoever regarding anything you said. If you would be so kind as to return to the thread and provide fits that back up your ridiculous assertions, that'd be pretty great. :)

-Liang


I wish you'd stop being so pretentious. Anyone can type as though they've swallowed a dictionary, you just make yourself look like an @rse. You do have some good ideas, but I just CBA to read them because you seem to think you have to use 10 words when 5 will do.

Post normally FFS and people might actually read what you type.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1049 - 2012-09-19 06:53:36 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm Down wrote:

Actually, I came right back at Fozzie with proof pudding.


Actually you continued to make completely unsupported assertions and provided no proof whatsoever regarding anything you said. If you would be so kind as to return to the thread and provide fits that back up your ridiculous assertions, that'd be pretty great. :)

-Liang


I wish you'd stop being so pretentious. Anyone can type as though they've swallowed a dictionary, you just make yourself look like an @rse. You do have some good ideas, but I just CBA to read them because you seem to think you have to use 10 words when 5 will do.

Post normally FFS and people might actually read what you type.

I don't see anything pretentious in what you quoted, but maybe that's because I payed attention in school.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#1050 - 2012-09-19 06:55:06 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Errand Girl wrote:
Speaking as a relatively new pilot who doesn't have 50 million+ SP and had the misfortune to choose Caldari... What am I supposed to fly now? HMLs already have fairly weak DPS and a 20% damage nerf means that my ship options for both PVE and PVP are totally gimped.

Drakes have too much tank, fine. HMLs have too much range, fine. But the damage nerf means all Caldari cruiser and battlecruiser hulls now pretty much suck. I realize that drake blobs are an issue in null sec, but seriously.... find a way to nerf drake blobs without totally hosing carebears and small gang PVPers.

As a young player, I have very little cross training. I'm all Caldari ship skills and all missiles. Now I'm looking at what? 6+ months of training before I can be good at flying another race's ships and using another races weapons? Maybe that's not a long time to a lot of vets around here (who are much more likely to be well cross-trained already), but to a 1 year player that's a very long time. I'll wait until the final changes are announced, but I would very seriously consider quitting EVE rather than throwing away the millions of SP I have in soon-to-be-worthless crap, plus basically starting over on my ship/gun progression.


Three things:
- The Drake does not have low DPS by any stretch of the imagination.
- Caldari will be fine in PVP.
- Caldari is likely going to be improved in PVE with the TE/TC changes.

-Laing


Except that's mostly BS.

Yes, the Drake has decent DPS. Not amazing, but decent. Caldari is NOT going to be improved with the TE/TC changes - tank will have to be sacrificed to fit those modules and there's barely enough slots to fit a decent tank on most Caldari BS sized ships as it is.

If they gave us extra Mids/Lows to accommodate the modules then you'd have a point, but they aren't so you haven't.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#1051 - 2012-09-19 06:56:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I don't see anything pretentious in what you quoted, but maybe that's because I payed attention in school.


Have a cookie Blink

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1052 - 2012-09-19 06:56:55 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
and there's barely enough slots to fit a decent tank on most Caldari BS sized ships as it is.

If they gave us extra Mids/Lows to accommodate the modules then you'd have a point, but they aren't so you haven't.

Well, the changes don't really affect BS...

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1053 - 2012-09-19 06:58:55 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
[
The new Powergrid would allow a 800mm Steel plate 2 if my estimates are correct. That is a LOT less tank.
I am not satisfied with these changes.

Why? You gonna have less overtank than before, it's a good thing. 800mm plate should be the biggest one available for cruisers/battlecruisers anyway.


If you fight solo with agression at a gate in lowsec 1600mm is just about enough to finish a fight with another BC and if you win BARLEY get out near structure.

Another BC, which is in turn overtanked? Cool story Cool


No, does not have to be overtanked as in 90% of the cases I will have the agression and the gate guns against me. It can also be a active tanked BC. Right now i can mitigate this by using cycled neuts on an active armor tanked BC and hope he eventually rans out of cap, cap boosters or his cycle is disturbed. It is already nearly impossible to agress a double ancilary shield booster cyclone in a Buffer armor cane at a gate with guns against you if you do it solo.
TBO its a buff for falcons :-D. If you want to fly Armor Hurricane - use a falcon Alt....or a scorp outside gategun range.

So basically your complaint comes down to active tanked ship + senties being better in 1on1 fight than the passive one? Looks fine to me.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#1054 - 2012-09-19 06:59:21 UTC
Can anyone help me make sense of why Caldari have their weapons PG requirements the other way round (Less fittings for LR)?

As Eckyy says, wouldn't switching it around make it harder for Drake/Tengus to fit HMs with their classic pvp fits which are quite tight? I'm also still in favor of the 25% range nerf as the Tengus shooting to 110km/Drakes to lock range is a little ridiculous. Also yes, the damage is undeniably better than other LR weapons but missiles do not have short-range high damage ammo options (all turrets have more damage with t2 SR ammo even if you're using HM fury) and has many other drawbacks, I feel like a 10% reduction would be better.
Errand Girl
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1055 - 2012-09-19 06:59:35 UTC
Roime wrote:
Errand Girl wrote:
Speaking as a relatively new pilot who doesn't have 50 million+ SP and had the misfortune to choose Caldari... What am I supposed to fly now? HMLs already have fairly weak DPS and a 20% damage nerf means that my ship options for both PVE and PVP are totally gimped.

Drakes have too much tank, fine. HMLs have too much range, fine. But the damage nerf means all Caldari cruiser and battlecruiser hulls now pretty much suck. I realize that drake blobs are an issue in null sec, but seriously.... find a way to nerf drake blobs without totally hosing carebears and small gang PVPers.

As a young player, I have very little cross training. I'm all Caldari ship skills and all missiles. Now I'm looking at what? 6+ months of training before I can be good at flying another race's ships and using another races weapons? Maybe that's not a long time to a lot of vets around here (who are much more likely to be well cross-trained already), but to a 1 year player that's a very long time. I'll wait until the final changes are announced, but I would very seriously consider quitting EVE rather than throwing away the millions of SP I have in soon-to-be-worthless crap, plus basically starting over on my ship/gun progression.


Two of the three Caldari battlecruisers use hybrid weapons. Are they useless now?

And just to repeat what has been said numerous time, and has been long known to all but dreaktards- HMLs have high dps compared to other medium LR weapons, better range and damage application, which is why they get rebalanced to be in line with the others.

Drakes and Tengus are ubiquitously good in PVE, other three races have been very lacking in comparison. Still players of the other races have been doing PVE all this time.

Take it chill, you will be just fine.




Considering that every other post in this thread mentions that medium hybrids stink... The other Caldari battlecruisers were already worthless. How many Ferroxes and Nagas do you see flying around?

While at extreme ranges HMLs have better DPS than guns, it's weaker at lower ranges, no? Especially when high damage ammo is used, an option that isn't available with missiles. Damage application is not necessarily better with missiles either, it's far from a straight comparison. Missiles do very low damage against fast and/or small sig targets while guns do full damage. Those targets are harder for guns to track, obviously, but when they do hit it's for full damage. With guns there are ways to at least try to lower transversal, but that's impossible to do with missiles.

Again, I don't really care about the range nerf so much, but a 20% damage nerf basically kills HMLs as far as I can see. If you have a real suggestion, I'd be happy to hear it and think it over but I don't think "fly a ferrox" counts as a real suggestion.
Chroniccandy 420
Doomheim
#1056 - 2012-09-19 07:01:03 UTC
RIDICULOUS..

Why must you screw up what works well because you dont feel people are using the other options,.. we dont use those hams in the first place because we know they suck..
1.they never fit well in the first place
1a. see 1.
2.Duh why are you still not sure about 1.
3.must we keep going in circles

my character is just now startin to get decent in Heavy missile skills , now u want to MESS that all up. Not everyone is skilled in all types of damage types. for some like myself Heavy Missiles might be all of the glory we might be close to obtaining after many years and many $$ invested.

I have put alot of time into this game. The only thing im starting to like about my character is my potentional HM damage.. i dont have great shields or gunnery or even drone skills.. but i sure have put my time in ..

Why dont you make Hams Better because they suck..

And not make HM worste... to me it sounds like ur trying to make poor design appears to be more attractive.

If you want me to bring in my friends to be potential customers dont give me constant bad things to say about eveonline
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1057 - 2012-09-19 07:03:38 UTC
now all they have to do is nerf projectiles.
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1058 - 2012-09-19 07:04:59 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
now all they have to do is nerf projectiles.


.. to nerf all other gunery's
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#1059 - 2012-09-19 07:05:42 UTC
Quote:
So basically your complaint comes down to active tanked ship + senties being better in 1on1 fight than the passive one? Looks fine to me.


Active tanked ships plus sentries are already better, but whom do I tell that.
You know exactly what I mean.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Hypercake Mix
#1060 - 2012-09-19 07:09:17 UTC
TD and TE affecting missiles would make missiles... a lot less different than turrets. I'm leaning toward "do not like".
20% damage nerf to HMLs... are they just ignoring the exclusive double DPS bonus of the Tengu AEB?