These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Projectile weapons vs Missiles, Hybrids, etc.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ark Anhammar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-09-19 03:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ark Anhammar
Can someone please explain to me the advantages/disadvantages of Projectile weapons? I've heard they work "in falloff," but I have absolutely no experience with them and am not really sure what that means.

I know hybrids dps best in their optimal range, and the falloff is usually pretty moderate, whereas lasers have many optimals (depending on the crystal used) but the falloff is extremely short (~2-3km). Missiles, as I understand them, have no "optimal" so to speak, only that velocity x fight time = range and they'll always hit.

For projectiles, I know they don't cost cap to fire and you can select the damage type. Oh I think their rate of fire is slower? and artys have high alpha damage.

Please, if I'm wrong about something listed, correct me. Otherwise, can someone please tell me the virtues of each of the weapon systems? I noticed some pirate ships use Projectiles and of course Minmatar, but what is so great about them? What makes them so good in pvp?

Also, can someone explain what explosion velocity is and how it relates to missile dps?
Nrazza
Liquid Words
#2 - 2012-09-19 03:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nrazza
It just means because of their tiny Optimal you will probably always be fighting IN falloff range. Projectile still work and can project alot of dps in falloff range. I just did i Mordus mish in which i completed the entire in mish in falloff with my distance T2 ammo it was over 80km most of which is falloff.


Autocannons have a very high rate of fire and the Arties have a slower rate of fire but a much higher alpha strike.

Because of the higher rate of fire they can chew through alot of ammo
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#3 - 2012-09-19 05:58:33 UTC
Optimal and Falloff, for most weapons...

You're going to do max damage out to Optimal, and 1/2 damage out to Optimal + Falloff. In the case of hybrids and lasers, that means you'll be doing awesome damage at 10km, pitiful damage at 12km, and nothing that could be mistaken for damage at 15km.

Optimal on Proj weapons is terrible usually, but the falloff goes on forever. That means you'll be doing decent amounts of damage over a very wide range of distances. The difference will be marginal between 5km and 15km, for example.

As stated, Proj don't use Cap. So you can continue firing even under Neuts.
Ark Anhammar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-09-19 08:31:36 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:
Optimal on Proj weapons is terrible usually, but the falloff goes on forever. That means you'll be doing decent amounts of damage over a very wide range of distances. The difference will be marginal between 5km and 15km, for example

So where would you want to fight? What would I set my orbit in your 5-15km falloff example? Would you still try and hit optimal (which shouldn't be a problem considering minmatar speed)?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2012-09-19 09:14:50 UTC
You need to consider more things than just optimal + falloff in combat.

- do you want to avoid getting scrammed?
- what's the best range considering your target and your tracking?
- do you need to web & scram the target?
- does he have neuts?
- do you have neuts?
- are you being TDd?
- is he long or short range?
- how is he tanked?
- friends?
- did you take the gate guns?
- what's on the other side of that wh?
- will he follow you out of the bubble?
- can you keep range?
- is he dumb/noob/failfit or bait?

etc, etc, a huge list of things that affect where you want to be in an engagement.

.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#6 - 2012-09-19 12:59:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zor'katar
To summarize Roime: Fly as close as is practical and safe. (Well, that's not an exact summary, but that's my take on it.)

Also, to clarify the thread in general: The "projectile weapons have no optimal" sentiment is specific to autocannons... artillery guns do have some optimal.

And since the range bonuses/penalties of projectile ammo is specific to optimal and doesn't affect falloff, if you're running autocannons don't bother with the mid- or long-range standard ammos. Stick to EMP, PP, and Fusion for maximal damage with minimal range penalty. (T2 ammos are situational.)
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Gildinous Vangaurd
The Initiative.
#7 - 2012-09-19 14:22:03 UTC
OP: are you asking for PvE or PvP?

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"
Barrak
The Painted Ones
#8 - 2012-09-19 15:38:51 UTC
Ark Anhammar wrote:
I know hybrids dps best in their optimal range


EVERY turrent work best in their optimal. With all things being equal, this is where you hit for 100% damage.

I think, perhaps, what you meant, or at least what is fact, is that Hybrids are commonly used in their Optimal as much as possible as their fall off is not good (there are exceptions).

People tend to use what their ships are bonused for.

Amarr = Energy weapons (lasers)
Gallente = Hyrbrids, though they tend to err on the side of damage and optional thus they are blaster suited
Caldari = Missiles & Hybrids, though they err on the side of range, thus Rails are better suited.
Minmatar = Projectiles.

So, unless you have an interesting fit and a very good reason for having it, you don't really have a choice about what guns to use UNLESS you fly a ship that has no turret bonuses or one that has bonuses that you don't want and won't use.

A classic example of this was the Old Merlin (Caldari Frigate). It's bonuses were to tank, thus you would commonly see them using lazers or projectiles.

Whilst Missiles do always hit, they can be easily speed tanked. So, just because they hit all the time, please please do not assume you are going to EFT your damage each time, as it will not happen. Add to that explosion radius and velocity and you have another story.

Projectiles used to have fantastic tracking, however with the buff to Blasters they are on par, some believe worse, some bbeleive better.

You could argue that Projectiles are a little more forgiving on the 'controlling range' front, as in; if you can't control range, you can still hit fairly well.

Whilst having the ability to choose your ammo type in with projectiles 'seems' to be great, how much do you know about what types of damage to apply to which targets? If you don't then its not a massive benefit as you will likely find yourself sticking with one type. And if my memory serves me well, I beleive Fusion was best overall and was considered to be the default ammo loaded.

That said.... EMP for most shield tanked ships, Plasma if you 'think', but are not sure you'll be going against shields, and Fusion for most Armour ships.

So..... I certainly wouldn't say they are great............. they are 'now' on a par with all the others and infact, that take more managing that most other systems now.

Also... ona side note, and because you mention missiles, you might want to read the dev blogs about missile changes before putting to many skill points into them.

Regards
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#9 - 2012-09-19 17:10:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dibblerette
Ark Anhammar wrote:
Marcus Gideon wrote:
Optimal on Proj weapons is terrible usually, but the falloff goes on forever. That means you'll be doing decent amounts of damage over a very wide range of distances. The difference will be marginal between 5km and 15km, for example

So where would you want to fight? What would I set my orbit in your 5-15km falloff example? Would you still try and hit optimal (which shouldn't be a problem considering minmatar speed)?


Generally:
Small neut : 6km
Scram(hot): 9km (~10.8?)
Web(hot):10km (13)
Medium Neut: 12km

Heavy Neut: 24km
T2 Disruptor(hot): 24km (28.8km)

Depending on what you are in, and what your enemy is in, you will want to find the range that works best for your fit and worst for theirs.

Example:
If I am in a Vagabond (hefty faloff bonus, fragile speedy ship) versus an enemy Hurricane (Assume armor fit, so medium neuts, dual webs), I will sure as hell want to stay away from the webs and the neuts, but still maintain my warp disruptor on him. I would most likely initially set orbit at 25km with a heated point, and then settle in to around 20km. This gives me a little buffer range if he tries to get closer to me or burn out of point range. It gets really dangerous once he gets to 13km, because then he will throw double heated webs on me, allowing him to quickly close to neut range, and obliterate me.

I have to say, this would be a difficult fight, since the cane would still be doing pretty decent damage out to 20km, but it serves a good example.

EDIT: This is all without Skirmish Links, those extend the range of scrams/points/webs, so always be careful when engaging a ship with a pricetag big enough to justify the Loki alt.
Ark Anhammar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-09-20 04:50:53 UTC
Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:
OP: are you asking for PvE or PvP?

Oh I really just was speaking in the broadest sense. For example: Projectile auto cannons have very short optimal and huge falloff but poor base tracking. This would be true absent any tracking enhancers of course. More of just the "baseline" virtues and vices of projectiles or hybrids or lasers, etc.

**I want to really say thanks for all the responses. They've all been very helpful and I'm sure everyone appreciates the insight.