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Incoming heavy missile nerf and how you plan to handle it.
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Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#1 - 2012-09-18 14:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Fatelyng
Quote:
citation: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029

-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.

This obviously affects the drake and tengu equally for C2/C3s and III/IVs. Will you be moving to heavy assault missiles, a new ship, or changing your playstyle? I'm curious as to your responses.

Edit: Here's some interesting information to consider, comparing HMLs to other long-range cruiser weaponry.
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
citation: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1937253#post1937253
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.
Le'Mon Tichim
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-09-18 15:10:37 UTC
I don't see it affecting wormhole Tengu's THAT much. Site running will take longer, and you'll have to get closer, but in the end, pilots will adapt.

Can you hear them? They are calling to us. It is beautiful. http://thegreattichim.wordpress.com/
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2012-09-18 15:22:18 UTC
Eh, there are still some ambiguities in the thread. If you read it as Furies still doing the same (or more?) damage and just having a harder time applying it I likely won't change much if anything for exploration. But if it ends up being a full 20% drop? I'll fly a Proteus more often.

Shrug.
BearJews
Order of Extrodinary Gentlemen
#4 - 2012-09-18 16:01:37 UTC
I really don't understand the need to nerf Heavy Missiles. That system just BLOWs when you aint blobbing in Pvp.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#5 - 2012-09-18 16:17:33 UTC
Like i said in the thread the OP linked for Tengu Mission and anomaly runners, I forsee a great switching to Navy Ravens or scorps with tracking computers/enhancers and precision missiles for the frigs. My FoF missile Guristas Ratting Tengu will become an Fof Ratting CNR lol. That's if the changes happen.
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-09-18 18:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikolai Dostoyevski
BearJews wrote:
I really don't understand the need to nerf Heavy Missiles. That system just BLOWs when you aint blobbing in Pvp.


^^^This.

Why the hell are they nerfing heavy missiles?? They're the least used in PVP as it is.

FWIW, my CNR can fire cruise missiles over 200k km, so not sure why heavy missiles that can fly 100 km need to be nerfed.. just going to make it easier for fast ships to escape the range of missiles.. but I can understand that better than a damage nerf. They're already a low damage weapon.

I will probably switch to a HAM Tengu/Drake for various missions/anomalies given that the range discrepancy wouldn't be as significant if this nerf goes into effect.
Sergi Arro
Organized Chaos IZS
Aggressively Passive Bears
#7 - 2012-09-18 19:06:16 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Quote:
citation: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029

-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.

This obviously affects the drake and tengu equally for C2/C3s and III/IVs. Will you be moving to heavy assault missiles, a new ship, or changing your playstyle? I'm curious as to your responses.


I think it's (semi)important to keep in mind the changes to Tracking Computers and Enhancers, as they can help overcome some of the nerf here, but nothing is going to change the damage loss, which I think it by far the biggest.

Le'Mon Tichim wrote:

I don't see it affecting wormhole Tengu's THAT much. Site running will take longer, and you'll have to get closer, but in the end, pilots will adapt.


A 20% damage reduction is pretty significant. If you're using a passive tengu then you've essentially lost a launcher, and if you're on a 6 launcher boat its actually taking more damage away from you then just missing a launcher (which would only be about 17%).

I agree with the range part here, if anything it'll make those tengu pilots actually have to do something to earn their money...

It will be interesting to see what actually happens with all of this.
IMO anyways
Melina Lin
Universal Frog
#8 - 2012-09-18 19:32:03 UTC
Sergi Arro wrote:
A 20% damage reduction is pretty significant.

Yes it is and they will nerf the T3 hull too. They will nerf it hard. Lol

Quoting CCP Ytterbium: " Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line."

Entertaining times ahead.
stoicfaux
#9 - 2012-09-18 19:58:03 UTC
Melina Lin wrote:
Sergi Arro wrote:
A 20% damage reduction is pretty significant.

Yes it is and they will nerf the T3 hull too. They will nerf it hard. Lol

Quoting CCP Ytterbium: " Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line."

Entertaining times ahead.

Yes, but my concern is if they're nerfing them to the point that they're not really worth their high cost anymore.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#10 - 2012-09-18 20:17:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Fatelyng
stoicfaux wrote:
Yes, but my concern is if they're nerfing them to the point that they're not really worth their high cost anymore
I share this concern.

While I'm the first to admit that the range to dps ratio for the Tengu's Heavy Missile Launchers was over the top, we're talking about a ship that knocks off four days of training time when lost. Forget the ISK investment for a faction or T2 fitted Tengu, or the training time required to fly one effectively. There is a constant sp-at-risk T3 pilots are facing when they undock, and the rewards should equal the risk.
Ginger Barbarella
#11 - 2012-09-18 20:57:39 UTC
If it happens if would suck (106k range on my Heavy Tengu atm), but we'll see. 25% damage reduction? That right there is a serious nerf to Tengu, and can effectively castrate the Cerberus... It would be a shame to see this kind of nerf happen. Guess it's time to get my missile rat toons up on Projectiles...

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Jack Togenada
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-09-18 21:35:34 UTC
Would switching to HAM's for PvE be viable? You'd have to web frigs instead of target point them and the new tracking computer buffs would help with the range.
Ensign X
#13 - 2012-09-18 21:51:19 UTC
Jack Togenada wrote:
Would switching to HAM's for PvE be viable? You'd have to web frigs instead of target point them and the new tracking computer buffs would help with the range.


With the change to Tracking Enhancers, HAMs might be more effective, but you're losing DPS by dropping a Ballistic Control for a TE or you lose some of your tank by adding a Tracking Computer or a web. HAMs are still pretty awful, HMLs are just closer to HAMs in their awfulness now.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-09-18 22:49:17 UTC
i deal with it by not acknowledging the possibility that CCP could ever bring such a stupid change in the first place. then i think back to incarna and become depressed.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-09-18 22:52:26 UTC
I have the feeling a 1000+ dps, shield tanked sentry domi is in my future for pve stuff.
Sergi Arro
Organized Chaos IZS
Aggressively Passive Bears
#16 - 2012-09-18 23:01:09 UTC
Ensign X wrote:
Jack Togenada wrote:
Would switching to HAM's for PvE be viable? You'd have to web frigs instead of target point them and the new tracking computer buffs would help with the range.


With the change to Tracking Enhancers, HAMs might be more effective, but you're losing DPS by dropping a Ballistic Control for a TE or you lose some of your tank by adding a Tracking Computer or a web. HAMs are still pretty awful, HMLs are just closer to HAMs in their awfulness now.


This really sums up what the issue is going to be. In either case you're going to have to sacrifice damage or tank to replace what CCP is taking away with these changes.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-09-18 23:42:00 UTC
ham builds do not work in missions. you'd need two TPs to get to a point where you can kill spider drones at which point i'd rather be flying golem.

I should buy an Ishtar.
stoicfaux
#18 - 2012-09-19 00:05:20 UTC
Jack Togenada wrote:
Would switching to HAM's for PvE be viable? You'd have to web frigs instead of target point them and the new tracking computer buffs would help with the range.

In the context of the Tengu, doubtful. Fury missile DPS looks like it will still be better than T1 HAM DPS. Given that they're planning on reducing Rage HAM range even further, the HML's range would still let you out DPS Rage HAMs.

The only meaningful changes are going to be the DPS loss and maybe dropping a tank slot for a TC.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-09-19 01:24:11 UTC
How do I plan to handle it if if they push through the full extent of this proposed nerf?

I will be cancelling one of my accounts. No reason to keep him around to fly Tengus - I'll just dust off my other character that is already trained up in gunnery.
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-09-19 01:25:36 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Melina Lin wrote:
Sergi Arro wrote:
A 20% damage reduction is pretty significant.

Yes it is and they will nerf the T3 hull too. They will nerf it hard. Lol

Quoting CCP Ytterbium: " Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line."

Entertaining times ahead.

Yes, but my concern is if they're nerfing them to the point that they're not really worth their high cost anymore.



I don't get CCP's recent push to homogenize everything. It's okay to have a "better" ship that costs millions of ISK to fit properly.

Not everything needs to be the same.
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