EVE General Discussion

CCP RubberBAND wrote:

It used to be two clicks, it is now also two clicks (albeit one with a shift).

You could also use the tree view (which follows the same layout as the right click menu used to) and open the fuel bay as soon as you make the ship active. Then you have visibility at all times.

Prior to the Unified Inventory you would also have to open the fuel bay on making a ship active.


Nice claim. CCP Goliath made it, too. People challenged him and CCP to provide some documentation of just how this would be possible, what possibly we could be missing in the UI that would let us do this.

No response -- just the repeated claim, and the blind expectation that the entire @#$ player base is just too stupid to get the marvels of the new UI, but someday we'll magically see the light.

Well. Let's take a look at this.

I want to open the fuel bay. So I hop on SiSi, and climb into my Moros (which is one hop away, since you turned the system I set up in into a combat system, sigh).

I see two paths:

1) I can open the cargohold, open the tree, expand my ship, shift click on Fuel Bay, close new tree, then click on the fuel bay window again to bring it to the front.

Hmm, that's 6 clicks, one shifted (thus requiring two hands).

Nope, that's not it.

2) I start with the inventory window. If I'm lucky, this saves me the step of opening the tree. Otherwise, exactly the same.

And that's only because both of these open the tree to the top, where my active ship is. If I wanted to access a corporate delivery hanger, for example, I'd have to SCROLL DOWN (using your unique scroll bars that respond to clicks differently than anybody else in the known universe) to locate the right item on the tree.

Is there some magic I'm missing? Me and everybody else?

Again, nothing new here. Please catch up with us, so we can have a productive conversation.



CCP RubberBAND wrote:

I'll take these points together.

First is a tree view that shows every container location. For consistency sake, everything is shown in the tree view. You can use shift click, but it is clear you would prefer to just double click. We are discussing having an option that would enable shift for the Inventory by default so windows would open up in a new window with a single click. This is not set in stone and we are not promising this feature, but discussing it internally if it makes sense.

One of the design goals for the Unified Inventory was to consolidate Inventory management into as few windows as possible. Theoretically (and this is often how I use the Inventory) you could open up a second window, expand the tree view and now jump between the locations in both windows as required.\


The first paragraph makes sense, more or less, except that doesn't play well with expanding/collapsing trees, especially if you give us the ability to select a higher scope in the tree and see the combined contents. But even without that feature, I predict it's going to be frustrating.

Double-clicking, however, does not have this problem, and extends nicely to being able to select higher levels in the tree.

As for the design goals -- people have ripped so many holes into this goal it's full of swiss cheese. But before we get there, let me point out that you've failed to meet it.

When you loot a container in space, instead of closing the container, you switch the window to the cargohold. That's always an extra, unwanted window. THAT one, you newly introduced. THAT one, get rid of.

Now, let's look at the consequences of your goal. Let's say I'm looking at a corporation hanger, and I want to move stuff from my cargohold to the hanger.

I right click on my ship and choose Open Cargohold.

Oops -- it just REPURPOSED my corpration hanger window.

This happens over, and over, and over again. This is perhaps the single most frustrating thing about this new system -- it thinks you want one window, and that any window you have open is not important, and it can just usurp it.

The assumption you're making is that you know what the player wants to do, better than the player himself.

WRONG. Here's a design goal for you: NEVER EVER usurp an open window to do something else. It fails with looting containers in space, and it fails differently here.

If you select something in the tree view, that is the ONLY time an existing window should change what container it focuses on.

And I have to take particular issue with your last sentence, specifically "you could open up a second window, expand the tree view and now jump between the locations in both windows as required."

First, expand the tree view is a new, added step.

But that's not the end of it. YOU LEFT OUT SEVERAL STEPS -- navigating the tree to the desired container, and clicking on it.

You're not even being honest with yourself here.

Please, as has been repeatedly requested, do a gesture-by-gesture comparison of the common tasks. Look not just for total count, but also predictability and consistency -- scrolling around a large tree view looking for something is much more expensive than just a click in a predictable location.

You'll find, point by point, that the new Unified Inventory is a fail as a replacement for direct access.

It's not really that the unification is a fail. It's that the REPLACEMENT is a fail.

But once again, we repeat ourselves.

The reason things take longer are pretty much covered in the points I repeated above, and more that are covered in the original thread.

Opening all the inventory windows you need is much more time-consuming now, and it involves messing with inventory on both sides of the transfers. It not only takes more time, it is less predictable, subject to frustration as the primary windows go do random unwanted things, or the secondary windows leave you guessing as to which hanger you're looking at (even though you NAMED the friggin things precisely to avoid that confusion).

By the way, yes, the ability to name things is a VAST improvement. What took so long? But I've named all my guns and things, and now when I play starbase defender, I can tell what I'm doing. See, that's what a UI improvement looks like -- making things more clear, saving steps, reducing confusion.

But please take note of this: The reason you're seeing all these 1+'s is because THESE ARE NOT EDGE CASES. These really ARE things where lots and lots of people are hitting the exact same issues, over and over and over again.

And they've been telling you about them, over and over again. And you're not listening.

You don't need people telling you more specific details. The problems have been detailed into the ground. Until you start actually responding to the details already provided, you're just annoying the customer base.

Lots and lots of us have put in CONSIDERABLE effort in giving you guys constructive, actionable feedback, both with respect to a process and communications, that won't **** off your player base, and detailed suggestions for how to properly integrate this and make it work well.

People have even gone to the trouble of making actual prototypes, and walking you through them with YouTube videos.

Frankly, I think the player community has put more thought and analysis and work into the design than you have. And I say that knowing full well what's involved in doing a UI design -- we're talking about a LOT of thought, and a lot of work in attempting to communicate these thoughts to you.

But it is plain that there's a lot of players out here who have a better handle on what the players have been telling you than you do.

This makes for an enormous amount of frustration.

And finally, please get it out of your head that the issue here is changing workflow. This isn't players resisting change. This is players struggling to work even half as efficiently with these things. And despite having been repeatedly challenged to demonstrate how the new system is even no worse than the old, CCP has repeatedly demonstrated that you cannot.

The general challenge has gone unanswered. There have been a few attempts, as you did, to suggest a parity, but on closer examination, that "parity" has been an illusion. Every. Single. Time.

There was nothing wrong with the old workflow. There was not even anything incompatible with the new inventory windows. The old model was simple and direct: To look inside something, open it.

"Too many container windows" was not a problem that needed solving, and you didn't solve it.

As detailed in the ORIGINAL dev post about this, the problem to be solved was "finding all my stuff". That's the assets window. But you veered off the track, and made it hard to get the stuff we already KNOW where is.
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tl;Dr

Who the hell is this guy?

what's his point?

Yes, I totally read all of that!

Well I have no problems with the UI as it is so whatever this muppet sees no reason to read all that.

Got a way to make the My Filters stay condensed? So annoying to condense it every time you dock.

Yeah that one is annoying, seems like it would be easy enough for CCP to fix too.

I haven't had any issues with the new system, pretty easy to use really.

It's different. That's the only thing you hate about it.

Incorrect.

OP, it's hard to read. Put a "quote= and /quote" for those paragraphs to differentiate who's writing what.
Yeah Tippia, go for that blog. Thumbs up. I know I'm still annoyed over univentory, but have run out of willpower to say something about it :P