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[Winter] EW Frigate Rebalance

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MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#261 - 2012-08-30 12:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: MisterNick
EDIT - nevermind I should have checked the present stats first Lol

In other news, hope damps themselves get a look at alongside the ships that use them.

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2012-09-03 09:31:57 UTC
Perhaps instead of regarding target painting as ewar, we should be thinking of it asway to bypass ewar. It's already a counter to tracking speed TDs, although nobody uses it that way. What if painting a target forced it to be lockable, even if it's out of lock range or beyond the max number of targets? Then the vigil's range bonus would be extremely useful. Instead of fitting sensor boosters a sniper fleet might rely on their painters to allow them to lock at long range. An ECCMed up painter might make a good counter to ECM in small gangs
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#263 - 2012-09-03 12:01:11 UTC
Uris Vitgar wrote:
Perhaps instead of regarding target painting as ewar, we should be thinking of it asway to bypass ewar. It's already a counter to tracking speed TDs, although nobody uses it that way. What if painting a target forced it to be lockable, even if it's out of lock range or beyond the max number of targets? Then the vigil's range bonus would be extremely useful. Instead of fitting sensor boosters a sniper fleet might rely on their painters to allow them to lock at long range. An ECCMed up painter might make a good counter to ECM in small gangs



this idea of enabling lock past the ships standard lock range intrigues me, i hope CCP explores this idea a little further, as long as it keeps its currant uses still.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#264 - 2012-09-03 15:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Azorria
Uris Vitgar wrote:
Perhaps instead of regarding target painting as ewar, we should be thinking of it asway to bypass ewar. It's already a counter to tracking speed TDs, although nobody uses it that way. What if painting a target forced it to be lockable, even if it's out of lock range or beyond the max number of targets? Then the vigil's range bonus would be extremely useful. Instead of fitting sensor boosters a sniper fleet might rely on their painters to allow them to lock at long range. An ECCMed up painter might make a good counter to ECM in small gangs

A counter to ECM, that is actually useful even if you don't encounter any... I think you just found the holy grail of E-War.

And you could even add scripts to TPs, an optimal range one for sniping that doesn't increase sig radius by much, if at all, and a sig radius one that has a pretty short range.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#265 - 2012-09-04 04:11:19 UTC
I really like these changes.

The Maulus might now be able to fit 2 damps and run them while using a MWD. I am a bit concerned, though, you aren't able to really fit any actual offensive weapons. The key with damp frigs is, a) stay at range (yay perma-MWD!), b) stop the enemy hitting you, c) do damage. The third is sorely lacking.

The Vigil....mmmm. More speed? This thing will go faster than most ceptors when nanoed. The scan res buff also makes it more awesome as a cheap ceptor. The problem, as always, is the TP's weakness, but with 5 mids you get to stack in multiple painters plus a MWD. Or scram-web-AB-MASB-Invul and turn it into a brawler.

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Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#266 - 2012-09-04 09:09:03 UTC
wow, nerf the speed +'s to give it useless tp +'s, what a waste. How about put this focus on the EAF no one uses, make them useful and leave something that is working for me alone?
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#267 - 2012-09-09 02:32:36 UTC
shouldn't ewar frigs have a greater targeting range as they have now? If you look at the specs of a TD or ECM... its totally underused.

not as good as a recon but somewhere inbetween so you can have a second usecase for them

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#268 - 2012-09-09 03:10:34 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
shouldn't ewar frigs have a greater targeting range as they have now? If you look at the specs of a TD or ECM... its totally underused.

not as good as a recon but somewhere inbetween so you can have a second usecase for them


A single ionic field projector rig, after skills, gets a winter Crucifier up to 100km targeting range, which equals its 100km TD optimals.
Lili Lu
#269 - 2012-09-09 15:34:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Trinkets friend wrote:
I really like these changes.

The Maulus might now be able to fit 2 damps and run them while using a MWD. I am a bit concerned, though, you aren't able to really fit any actual offensive weapons. The key with damp frigs is, a) stay at range (yay perma-MWD!), b) stop the enemy hitting you, c) do damage. The third is sorely lacking.

The Vigil....mmmm. More speed? This thing will go faster than most ceptors when nanoed. The scan res buff also makes it more awesome as a cheap ceptor. The problem, as always, is the TP's weakness, but with 5 mids you get to stack in multiple painters plus a MWD. Or scram-web-AB-MASB-Invul and turn it into a brawler.

You mistake the role. The only damage you need to do is to drones that might get on you. These are not meant to be tackler/solo ships.

Kuehnelt wrote:
A single ionic field projector rig, after skills, gets a winter Crucifier up to 100km targeting range, which equals its 100km TD optimals.


Presently you can get that range with an ionic and a signal amp. Probably better if it stayed this way.

I think all the racial ewar should get a slight power nerf like ecm modules did, as long as the buff on the specialized non-ecm boats brings them up over current values. This would make them desirable in a similar manner as ecm boats are presently. As for the TD, as much as I hate a true non-ecm ewar nerf, the TD should probably be operating like Damps and TPs, i.e. usually in falloff.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#270 - 2012-09-09 18:34:42 UTC
Uris Vitgar wrote:
Perhaps instead of regarding target painting as ewar, we should be thinking of it asway to bypass ewar. It's already a counter to tracking speed TDs, although nobody uses it that way. What if painting a target forced it to be lockable, even if it's out of lock range or beyond the max number of targets? Then the vigil's range bonus would be extremely useful. Instead of fitting sensor boosters a sniper fleet might rely on their painters to allow them to lock at long range. An ECCMed up painter might make a good counter to ECM in small gangs


Target painting as a counter to other ewar, as well as useful for general sig busting of targets is excellent idea. I think this is the correct way to boost TP, it both interesting game mechanic and makes sense for IC perspective.

+1

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Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#271 - 2012-09-11 12:35:22 UTC
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26553783.jpg

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Capac Amaru
Burning Sword
#272 - 2012-09-11 14:08:21 UTC
I really like the idea of a defensive signature reduction role for target painters.

I think it is sufficiently different from tracking disruption, in that it targets the aggressee instead of the aggressor.

Saying these would be the same is like saying an afterburner is the same as a webber.
Kelrift
Darktrace
Reeloaded.
#273 - 2012-09-11 14:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kelrift
I had always thought that the Minmatar Primary E-War capability was the Webifier like we see in the huggin/rapier...
Instead of looking at TP Maybe look into Web Bonuses?

I understand that the hybrid pirate Frigs the Cruor and the Daredevil have these bonuses (which make em desirable). why not t1 frigs .. and i know most other pilots would say lets look at Warp disruptor on the Malus and Nutes on the crucifier . some people would say that it would make these frigs OP but IMO Calidri's main E-war ECM seems a little OP .. (though a full flight(x5) of small t1 ECM drones are just as effective).

I know this would make the T2 E-war ships useless then But Why does Calidri the only race that has only 1 E-War role ... ie. the Griffin with 15% ECM jam strength and the Kitsune with 20% ECM jam strength. ...

Take a look at the T2 E-war ships in general and make reductions in range and strength and Ta-Da you have the T1 versions
Maybe get rid of the TP in general in the Vigil and use Minmatars main form of E-War the Webifier.

Target Painters are like Tracking Computers and Sensor Booster NOT necessary but nice to have available as a mid slot assistance...

Otherwise good work .. like the idea's
Doddy
Excidium.
#274 - 2012-09-11 16:31:51 UTC
Del Vikus wrote:
Vakr Onzo wrote:
So TP doesn't make a target easier to hit for bigger guns?


In response, let me quote Arkady:

Quote:
Target painters do not improve damage all that much in larger engagements. It's not even enough to make annoying interceptors at 100km hitable by large artillery, and that would be a pretty niche role. And contrary to other ewar, it's not useful to spread out, so once you have 3-4 painters in the whole fleet, any others are not only of "little use", but literally useless.



Really what fleet is going to have dozens of vigils anyway? Target painters can have a huge impact in large fleets (especially vs sig tanky things like logis), its just that any beyond the 3rd or 4th is redundancy. But then unless your entire fleet is made up of newbies (in which case the tps probably wont help at all anyway) there isn't likely to be dozens of vigils anyway.
Rayner Vanguard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2012-09-11 16:46:34 UTC
Reading on this thread from page 1, I believe that most people are more concern with the e-war mechanic themselves than the e-war frigs

So, my suggestion is to fix the e-war mechanics first (damp, ecm and tp. Not sure with td, no one is complaining yet) before changing the frigates or other e-war ships
Tatjana Braun
Black Lotus Industrial
#276 - 2012-09-11 21:34:44 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Updated with new stats as of August 14th. Details below as well as here:

...

VIGIL:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 26 PWG (+1), 225 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 410 (+57) / 3.22 / 1080000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6
Sensor strength: 12 Ladar
Signature radius: 34 (-10)
Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)


Why Targetpainting and not web as the Standart Minmatar E-War?

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Kor Kilden
Thukker Tribe Holdings Inc.
#277 - 2012-09-12 06:52:12 UTC
My scout vigil would like to file a formal complaint. Luckily, it'll probably suffer a violent accident before the changes hit, and won't be able to. It's been replaced with a scout slasher anyway, smaller sig.
Aggeron Fargone
The Tal'Shiar
#278 - 2012-09-12 14:16:12 UTC
I think I have read enough to know just in this thread how most people agree that Target painters are just not wanted or viewed as ewar, why CCP doesnt see that I have no idea. I know that the scythe currently get s a sensor linking bonus which if it worked right and was useful in countering ecm and sensor damping like it should then to me is fits more in the line of ewar then a tp, and sense you clearly want to save the web bonus for t2 ships it would be a better option to me.

But as of right now ruining the vigil just so it lines up with the bellicose being a carp missile boat with a painter sucks(both the vigil and the bellicose which should become a nice arty boat, but its not). It would just be nice if the target painter idea was scrapped already. It seems to have added another thing to the list of why people who fly and love minnie ships hate the changes you make to them. Bullets, Speed and Rust is what we want, so if you are going to do something other then those with a minnie ship you could at least try and listen to us.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#279 - 2012-09-12 17:48:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Several of the idea's for Target Painters need to be passed on to the appropriate team. They make sense, and typically painting a target allows target aquisition either possible in the first place or easier/more accurate than it would be without it.

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Zakeus Djinn
Who Called In The Fleet
#280 - 2012-09-12 23:05:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sui'Djin wrote:

interesting idea. Why shouldn't painters be able to also decrease a targets' signature (via inverter script)? This way they could also have a defensive roll and maybe help logistics. It would make painters more versatile.

This would be support ; though, maybe a script to increase sig res of ennemy turrets ?


This was one of the suggestions that came up in internal brainstorming as well, unfortunately it actually has the exact same effect as a tracking disruptor since sig res and tracking are both equal in the tracking formula.


He wasn't saying that reducing the sig radius of your teammates was the same as a tracking disruptor, he was saying that increasing the signature resolution of the enemy's guns was the same as a tracking disruptor, as the second poster suggested. How come not one person realized he was responding to the other poster?

Aside from that, I figured maybe a straight damage bonus on the painted target would work to allow target painting to be useful between ships of equal size, but on reflection it would probably just promote blobs.