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mission legion, hopeless?
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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-09-10 01:20:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
so i was tinkering with eft, trying to get the legion to work in lvl4s. this is the best i could come up with:


[Legion, angels]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
True Sansha Medium Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

Cap Recharger II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Gistum C-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization


it has 700dps with 24km range, tanks around 280 angel dps cap stable and goes 'weeeeee' fast. my question would be: does this measure up to at least the HAM tengu (not even talking mach here) when flown in angel space?

also, i'm not even looking at laser builds because... well... you know what i mean.

edit: btw, what's better to help hams with frigs, painter or web?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Danel Tosh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-09-10 02:16:25 UTC
HAM legions do more paper DPS than your typical lazer Legion, however you should remember that lazers are instant damage while missile (even at sort range) take some time to reach thier target.

If you want to stay with HAMs I will say that the Tengu has much better range (although you would be limited to just kinetc missiles with the tengu). Since HAMs are close range anyway I would go with a faction web instead of a TP.

BTW, part of the streanghts of a T3 is its LOW SIG RADIUS. putting the microwarpdrive on your ship is like making your ship the size of a battleship so you are that much esier to hit.
use an afterburner with the apropriate bonused subsystem and you could zip around at 700 ms without a care in the world.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-09-10 02:23:35 UTC
the mwd is not meant to run permanently. with the mediocre range, you need to get close to the targets RIGHT NOW and with 1700m/s you kind of get there, at least in my head. as for the tengu, my question was much more specific than your answer: will the legion stand up to it in real-world mission speed? how are the DPS after resists? will the tank hold? how bad is the range penalty in practice and will the mwd do enough to counter it?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-09-10 03:12:54 UTC
TBH I wouldn't bother armor tanking a HAM, or drone, legion for missions. You're already dropping a lot of money on just the ship itself so you might as well invest an equal amount in modules and get a nice gist shield booster. For that matter you might as well slap on a corelum AB as well. It's not as fast as an MWD, but with a couple nanos it pushes 879m/s without goofing up your tank by jacking up your signature radius.

[Legion, L4 HAMs]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Federation Navy Co-Processor
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist A-Type EM Ward Field
Gist A-Type Thermic Dissipation Field

Dread Guristas Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization

Only pushes 540 rDPS at around 18-19km actual (not EFT) with faction ammo, but ships will likely take a higher percentage of that damage than with T2 ammo and only one flare rig. As for how it stacks up to the Tengu, the tengu can, with a similar build, push about 500 rDPS with faction ammo. With bonused T2 ammo it goes up to just shy of 700 rDPS out to 25-26km actual. It can also fit a beefier tank, at the high end, but it only pushes 552m/s. It can also fit a painter which the legion can't. Downgrading the booster to a large instead of an XL frees up a bunch of fitting room on both ships for you to get more creative with.

As for whether webbers or painters are better against NPC frigates I'd go with painters. They take effect immediately instead of webbers which require you to wait a little bit for your target to bleed off their excess velocity. Likewise they have a longer optimal range meaning that if the frigates are kept at mid to long range for HAMs they'll probably be outside of webber range. Furthermore webbers are more likely to interfere with attempts to range/speed tank than painters are. Just my opinions though.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#5 - 2012-09-10 03:14:48 UTC
I just use a laser legion. Takes a little less time on some missions (ones with closer enemies or with lots of gate travel) than my Navy BS setups.

Almost 550dps with cheap t1 multi, and can tank any level 4 sitting still as long as I don't screw up aggro or triggers. Not that I would sit still, cause it would take a lot of scorch if I did.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2012-09-10 03:16:35 UTC
Shereza wrote:
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II


You did it again.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#7 - 2012-09-10 03:24:55 UTC
A HAM Tengu drops 1k+ DPS out to 30km and goes ~700m/s with a Corelum A-Type AB. The big problem with HAM fits are the frigs, which the Tengu has a much easier time dealing with due to extra mid slots. I'd personally go with a Laser Legion for L4s, but it is a bit underwhelming.

If you're willing to go a bit light on the tank, you should be able to get ~900 DPS out of a Pulse Legion with Snakes and 5% hardwirings. Even at 35km you're getting 600 DPS. I'd feel pretty confident taking it into a mission, personally.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Robert Lefcourt
BigPoppaMonkeys
E.B.O.L.A.
#8 - 2012-09-10 06:39:16 UTC
Danel Tosh wrote:
HAM legions do more paper DPS than your typical lazer Legion, however you should remember that lazers are instant damage while missile (even at sort range) take some time to reach thier target.


Lasers are a royal PITA for Angels. Hence the missiles.


regards,

rob
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-09-10 07:01:55 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Shereza wrote:
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II


You did it again.


/shrugs. I didn't update the build in EFT. I'd say sue me, but CCP hasn't implemented lawsuits yet. Pirate
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-09-10 08:42:03 UTC
Shereza wrote:


[Legion, L4 HAMs]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Federation Navy Co-Processor
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist A-Type EM Ward Field
Gist A-Type Thermic Dissipation Field

[...]


this makes me sad. you know your game balance is whacky when people start flying shield setups on amarr ships.

then again, nanos for more 'weeeee' :)

I should buy an Ishtar.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-09-10 09:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Shereza
Daniel Plain wrote:
this makes me sad. you know your game balance is whacky when people start flying shield setups on amarr ships.

then again, nanos for more 'weeeee' :)


I've been shield tanking Amarr ships ever since I used a shield tanked curse for L4s about 2-3 years ago and I don't see the problem with it. Likewise I don't see a problem armor tanking a machariel or raven or shield tanking a dominix if the cirumstances warrant it. Please bear in mind that I do have qualms with ignoring tanking bonuses and, for example, shield tanking a hyperion or myrmidon and that while I have no problem armor tanking a machariel or raven if/when warranted my machariel has spent approximately 5% of its total mission life, at most, armor tanked and my raven was more of a "I have more armor than shield skills and I want to shock my corp. mates" setup. Trust me, it shocked them. They freaked when my raven's shields hit 0 and it's armor stood still. Cool Now that I have the shield, and other, skills for it if I ever decide to fly my raven more often I'll of course be changing that to something more traditional. Probably. I still like the idea of doing it "for the lulz" even if it's less efficient.

Personally I think it's a good sign for game balance when you can tank ships without a specific tanking bias one way or the other and come up with effective builds for them, even if it might take a little extra cash to do it.

On a side note one thing I glossed over was your stated preference for doing missions around Angel territory. If the rules of pairs/counterparts CCP has going on in high-sec hold true in low-sec it means you'd be facing a lot of explosive and kinetic damage. It'd probably make more sense for you to shield-tank a legion than it would to armor-tank it, and its resistance bonuses fit the bill even better than a tengu's. In point of fact a Gist XL booster and an invulnerability field should, combined with the ship's AB speed, make your ship fairly hard to kill barring getting webbed or painted into a proverbial corner. For that matter I didn't even realize before now that the PCM module gave extra hardpoints. Based on that:
[Legion, L4 HAMs]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Federation Navy Co-Processor
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II <-- See, Zhilia, fixed it! P
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization

I didn't do quite as much min/maxing as I could have on my previous build and went with personal preference on the electronics module instead of which one provides the most CPU. Pushes 701 rDPS at 19km or so effective range, moves at a paltry 812m/s, has a minimum tank I wouldn't write home about and a maximum tank that should at least let you run away if you can do so in a minute or two, and pulls more effective DPS by dint of a second flare rig and the painter.

At the very least it'd make for an interesting ride down in flames. Lol
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-09-10 10:43:18 UTC
hm, this one looks almost viable. one more thing though: what's the deal with using MWDs? with the low range, pulsing your MWD to get to where the action is seems like a good idea and the ~20k shield buffer seems generous enough to me to survive 10seconds of sig bloom, especially if you consider that afterwards you have a deceleration phase where you should get close to 0 damage.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Keilateau Shakor
Shakor Freight and Mining Service
#13 - 2012-09-10 10:58:27 UTC
Not exactly pretty and massively over[-multi-]tanked, but it works.


[Legion, it works]
Core B-Type Armor EM Hardener
Core B-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Dark Blood Medium Armor Repairer
Dark Blood Medium Armor Repairer
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Gistum C-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-09-10 11:16:25 UTC
Keilateau Shakor wrote:
Not exactly pretty and massively over[-multi-]tanked, but it works.


[Legion, it works]
Core B-Type Armor EM Hardener
Core B-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Dark Blood Medium Armor Repairer
Dark Blood Medium Armor Repairer
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Gistum C-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


this will probably deal less damage than a tengu with explosive HMs...

I should buy an Ishtar.
Keilateau Shakor
Shakor Freight and Mining Service
#15 - 2012-09-10 11:19:01 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
this will probably deal less damage than a tengu with explosive HMs...

Yes, you are right. Than again, this is a thread about mission Legions... Blink
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-09-10 11:38:42 UTC
Keilateau Shakor wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
this will probably deal less damage than a tengu with explosive HMs...

Yes, you are right. Than again, this is a thread about mission Legions... Blink

this thread is about whether a mission legion can compete with a mission tangu in any circumstances. yours.. well... doesn't.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-09-10 11:46:07 UTC
closing range to next target and reloading all the time makes HAMs pretty tedious for missions imo

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-09-10 12:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Shereza
Daniel Plain wrote:
hm, this one looks almost viable. one more thing though: what's the deal with using MWDs? with the low range, pulsing your MWD to get to where the action is seems like a good idea and the ~20k shield buffer seems generous enough to me to survive 10seconds of sig bloom, especially if you consider that afterwards you have a deceleration phase where you should get close to 0 damage.


Personally, because it's not a DPS support ship or something being run in tandem with another ship that can offer either extra DPS or aggro-sharing capabilities. As a solo mission runner I personally can't justify using an MWD on any build I'd fly or promote however.

In order to fit an MWD in you'd either need to drop the nanofiber for a second CPU or downgrade the booster to a standard large. The former makes the ship more sluggish, especially when boosting, while the latter lowers the tank. Furthermore the legion in this configuration, especially with a PCM as opposed to a CRM for the engineering module, is not overly blessed with capacitor and I don't particularly like the idea of poking holes in a cup that's already substantially less than half full. Using an MWD does that in spades by not only lowering the maximum capacitor value but also by sucking up substantially more than an AB does. Both of which combine to make it much easier to go past the "sweet spot" in cap regeneration.

Frankly, after years of using blaster/AC/torpedo builds on battleships with afterburners I'm used to using them so puttering about at a "mere" 800m/s is just fine and dandy with me. In fact it's still faster than some MWD'ing battleships. I'm sure shoe-horning an MWD into the builds would work just fine for an intelligent player who knows exactly what they're doing, but I'm personally just fine with slow and steady because it's much more forgiving if, and when, I screw up.

Muad 'dib wrote:
closing range to next target and reloading all the time makes HAMs pretty tedious for missions imo


Slow-boating at 800m/s to use 18km range HAMs is still a lot better than 300m/s to use 5km blasters. Blink

____
Edit: Another option for if you aren't wedded at the hip to the HAM boat idea.

[Legion, L4 Drone]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Co-Processor II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Corelum A-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Gist A-Type Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Drone Navigation Computer II

Heavy Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M
Drone Link Augmentor I
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Legion Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization


Hammerhead II x5

1700m/s with the MWD on, drone control range to about the same as the lock range, rDPS is a bit low at only 524 and only when you're up close and personal, and then you also have issues with resistances towards lasers, but for those times when you want to nip in, take a bite out of something, and then zip out real quick to lick your wounds while your drones chew up some rats it should do just fine. Swap out the guns for ACs and the rDPS goes to 525 and you get more damage variability.

Just another option.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-09-10 12:27:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
with the prices for XL being what they are, you could easily afford an a-type medium instead of a large for stupid cap efficiency, less fitting and almost the same tank. also iirc deadspace MWDs have a very small cap penalty. now your tank would obviously be pretty fragile when not moving but with my tengu, i tank a whole blockade with 250 eft tank and sometimes don't even need to turn on the booster until the third trigger or so.

at this point, i would really like to test this on sisi. is there any way to get max skills on there excpt, you know, train them?

edit: for 500dps, i can just run in a drake ;) the whole point of this is to see if the whole thing is actually viable and not just possible.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-09-10 13:13:11 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
now your tank would obviously be pretty fragile when not moving but with my tengu,


What tengu?

Daniel Plain wrote:
i tank a whole blockade with 250 eft tank and sometimes don't even need to turn on the booster until the third trigger or so.


That's you. You get away with that, other posters get away with that, other posters do L4s in 10 minutes and make 50m isk doing it. That's not me, that's not my experiences, I don't plan around that.

Daniel Plain wrote:
at this point, i would really like to test this on sisi. is there any way to get max skills on there excpt, you know, train them?


Participate in stress testing. IIRC they give out something like 1m or 10m SP for participating in them. It stacks up to five and it's only applicable for the ones you participated in out of the last 5. There's a topic about it over in the appropriate forum.

Daniel Plain wrote:
edit: for 500dps, i can just run in a drake ;) the whole point of this is to see if the whole thing is actually viable and not just possible.


Well now that we've established that it's viable and not optimal what next?
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