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Hornet II's cant even break the tank on a elite frig?
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Denal Umbra
Coffee Hub
#1 - 2012-09-01 06:53:25 UTC
Decided to give em a try after changing over to caldari navy and the hornet II's could not even break the tank of a elite frig in a timely manner. Think it took them about 2 minutes?

Got the same mission later and the hobos took the same interceptor out in <30s.

Are the hornet II's so completely useless, even against guristas. That they are better off being recycled for scraps?

Same level of caldari drone spec as gallente drone spec.
Martin0
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-09-01 07:02:07 UTC
Why people think that caldari drones are better than gallente one agains guristas?
Gallente are best for everything not Angel.
Denal Umbra
Coffee Hub
#3 - 2012-09-01 07:07:15 UTC
hornet II - 1.74 x 15 = 26.1
hobos II - 1.92 x 15 = 28.8

The difference is not so huge and considering that guristas have 10% less kinetic resist than thermal, on paper it should be able to deal more damage over time. However... it wasn't even able to break the tank in a reasonable amount of time...
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#4 - 2012-09-01 07:23:18 UTC
Actually Caldari mobile drones are better against both Guristas and Seprentis.
Better damage ( after resistances ) + better speed + better tracking.

@OP
What ship are you flying?
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-09-01 07:25:45 UTC
Do you have the same skill level with both?
Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#6 - 2012-09-01 08:52:24 UTC
Only total bad luck makes sense to me since the applied damage should be better. Correct damage type and better tracking, I mean I have my Wasps take out Elite Frigs I cant imagine Hornets having a problem doing so...

Which mission was it and are you sure your hobs got to fight the same frigs? Not every mission has the same spawn each time. So same mission doesnt have to mean same NPCs.

In the end Hornets vs Frig taking more then 2 mins is a game error. I certainly have never seen it, nor do I think I ever will.

For everyone on the Gallente/Therm drones vs anything but Angels. You are just a bunch of lazy a** dudes and dudes, the only situation in which they beat the drones that do the correct damage type is against EM weak rats because EM drones are so terrible.

There are even rats that have extremely good Therm resists and its a very bad idea to use Therm drones versus for instance Mordus and EoM.

This said this only really matters if you mission a lot and are counting on your drones to do most of the DPS. Aka Domi, Ishtar, Gila, Rattle pilots.
Denal Umbra
Coffee Hub
#7 - 2012-09-01 09:42:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Denal Umbra
It was Assault (lvl4) and i got the same mission twice in an hour, the first run i did with hornets trying it out against gurristas and a Dire Interrogator took so long to take down. Swapped out to hobos for a blood mission for the next one and decided to give the hobos a try in the next Assault (lvl4) on the same Dire Interrogator and the frigate blew up A LOT faster.

I'm flying a drake with not so "perfect" drone skills.

Drone Interfacing 3
Combat drones 4
Caldari & Gallente spec 3
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-09-01 12:17:51 UTC
Martin0 wrote:
Why people think that caldari drones are better than gallente one agains guristas?
Gallente are best for everything not Angel.



Because guristas kin hole is bigger than thermal and yes Hornets do very well against guristas, their problem is tracking but if you have decent skills or using drone boat you shouldn't have a single problem killing guristas with Caldari drones.

brb
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#9 - 2012-09-01 22:00:43 UTC
Hey look it's this thread again. See this.

Yes, Hornets should do better against both Guristas and Serpentis than Hobgoblins.
Denal Umbra
Coffee Hub
#10 - 2012-09-02 15:31:05 UTC
Hmmz, they keep missing the frigates and take more time to down an elite frig than hobos but the time taking down a bs is 2-4 volleys less.

Is there a skill im missing to help them down the frigates faster? currently at 0 in drone navigation and sharpshooting. Thought those would make it even worse and never trained it.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#11 - 2012-09-02 17:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kosetzu
Denal Umbra wrote:
Hmmz, they keep missing the frigates and take more time to down an elite frig than hobos but the time taking down a bs is 2-4 volleys less.

Is there a skill im missing to help them down the frigates faster? currently at 0 in drone navigation and sharpshooting. Thought those would make it even worse and never trained it.


Drone Sharpshooting is very much worth training. The common belief that it makes them worse is because they think "longer optimal = longer orbit" or "longer optimal = worse tracking, which it isn't. The drone will try to stay in the same range of the enemy regardless of their optimal and will still retain their tracking, making them better at hitting targets that would otherwise be slightly out of optimal (further away = easier to track).

I would say Drone Navigation is good to have as well, as I find they hit better if they maintain an orbit than shift in and out of it. It is however true that if they can't properly enter and orbit and trail behind they do hit better usually, because they don't need to track as much.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-09-06 17:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Deena Amaj
Martin0 wrote:
Why people think that caldari drones are better than gallente one agains guristas?
Gallente are best for everything not Angel.


A bit off topic, but there had been some thoughts on Large Projectile Ammo regarding that question.
I don't know where I found the math or if it was really true, but there are assumptions that Phased Plasma L Ammo will deal more dmg than Titanium Sabot L despite T-Sabot having more KIN dmg. Thing is that Guris seem to have more resists on the 2nd dmg type, EXPLO, than THERM resists - hence the Phased Plasma ammo being the better choice.

I'm not into drones enough, but somebody already posted the answer :).


edit:
Quote:


Drone Sharpshooting is very much worth training. The common belief that it makes them worse is because they think "longer optimal = longer orbit" or "longer optimal = worse tracking, which it isn't. The drone will try to stay in the same range of the enemy regardless of their optimal and will still retain their tracking, making them better at hitting targets that would otherwise be slightly out of optimal (further away = easier to track).

I would say Drone Navigation is good to have as well, as I find they hit better if they maintain an orbit than shift in and out of it. It is however true that if they can't properly enter and orbit and trail behind they do hit better usually, because they don't need to track as much.



Now that you mentioned that, that Omni-tracking mod makes more sense.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Ryelek d'Entari
Horizon Glare
#13 - 2012-09-06 23:12:38 UTC
If your combat log shows lots of misses from hornet II's and fewer misses from hobgoblin II's, then the speed/orbit/tracking of the hornets is the culprit.

Hornets actually have higher tracking than hobgoblins, but in both cases their optimal is only 1000m. Because hornets move faster and have lower agility (higher mass with the same inertia modifier) they orbit at a wider radius than hobgoblins, and the orbit will be more elliptical against moving targets (e.g. elite frigs). It's a good bet that all or some of their orbit is significantly past 1000m and thus they're missing a lot.

As a test you could use hornet I's. They're significantly slower but have the same agility, so should orbit closer. They do ~20% less damage than hornet II's but otherwise have the same stats. If they're outperforming your hornet II's... bingo.

Note that the agility of hornets is 16% smaller than hobgoblins (3500kg vs 3000kg, same inertia modifier): the orbit radius increases non-linearly with agility but level 4 of drone sharpshooting gives a 20% optimal bonus... you see what I'm getting at here.

Long story short: train drone sharpshooting and your problem should disappear, and in theory those hornets should ever so slightly outperform the hobos vs guristas.

Or just use hobos. Roll
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-09-07 00:15:33 UTC
I have a thread dedicated to suggestions on how to make drones more useable here is the link if you want to have a look https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1658683#post1658683
As far a doing missions I will only use gallente drones, they break the tank on everything I have encountered without taking too long, the one time I used the appropriate damage I lost my ship because I could not destroy the incoming damage fast enough.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Michael Orlais
Cornucopia Ltd.
#15 - 2012-09-07 06:40:33 UTC
Train sharpshooting to at least 4 before you make racial drone comparisons. The only reason I can see why the Hobs are outdamaging the Hornets against Guristas is that your range is not high enough. It's true what the earlier poster said about higher velocity=greater orbit radius. And your orbit radius does not increase with your Drone Sharpshooting skill. The orbit radius depends on the drone in question and its speed+inertia.
smokess
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-09-07 07:24:12 UTC
Is there a chance you were accidentally using Hammer IIs instead of Hob IIs?
Aaewen Hrothgarson
eXtreme Co
SLYCE Pirates
#17 - 2012-09-07 08:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaewen Hrothgarson
smokess wrote:
Is there a chance you were accidentally using Hammer IIs instead of Hob IIs?



OP mentions above she uses a Drake, which has only 25 m3 drone bay.

Besides , two hammerheads II outperforming five Hornets II on an elite frigatte would be even more interresting.
Denal Umbra
Coffee Hub
#18 - 2012-09-09 16:48:28 UTC
So basically, you need Drone sharpshooting 4 to make faction specific drones more useful against frigs than hobos?

Thanks for the solid information on the agility. Explains it quite well actually.
XxRTEKxX
256th Shadow Wing
#19 - 2012-09-10 05:54:47 UTC
I prefer Caldari drones in missions. At least on serp, gurista and angels.
Yatama Kautsuo
Tencus
#20 - 2012-09-10 08:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Yatama Kautsuo
XxRTEKxX wrote:
I prefer Caldari drones in missions. At least on serp, gurista and angels.


this. if you haven't the room for different drone setups and you are to lazy to switch between missions go for caldari. they do well at almost every npc encounter except drones.

edit: not much experience with sansha/gurista/blood.
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