These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Tactical Guidance Ship Tech 2 Battlecruisers
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#1 - 2012-09-07 16:32:05 UTC
My boyfriend and I were discussing capital ships in combat and an idea occurred to me that had been sort of fermenting in my brain for a few weeks, and well, let me just provide an example hull, and explain it a bit:

Minmatar Tactical Guidance Ship "Mjölnir"
Hull: Hurricane
High Slots: 6
Midslots: 6
Lowslots: 4

Able to fit cynojammer module
Able to fit AEGIS Sensor Suite

Role: Increase battlefield awareness and cyno-defense for a fleet

New Modules:

Cynojammer module
Highslot mod. Acts much like a HIC. Significantly slows down the ship, and it cannot warp while the module is active. Prevents ships from cynoing in, not from a cyno being lit. When a ship tries to jump in, the jump fails, and the Tactical ship gets an alert saying who was trying to jump in, generating as a list on their screen.

AEGIS Sensor Suite
Midslot mod. Basically enhances the directional scanners. Increasing their range and also giving a reading range for things offgrid.

The Tactical Guidence ship would be a moderately armoured, lightly armed fleet support vessel. Its role would be to create an information and defence umbrella for fleets to operate out of, preventing easy hotdrops for midsized fleets and forcing engagements into subcapital realms.

Thoughts?

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#2 - 2012-09-07 16:43:51 UTC
Of course I like this, as we discussed it together Big smile But yes, this would definitely help smaller subcap gangs fight larger forces who traditionally rely solely on capships. It would also finally give a T2 role for tier-2 battlecruisers and act much like a HIC: unable to cloak, run, or really fight while in its tactical cynojamming mode. This would keep the ship from being OP in actual combat (much as a HIC does the DPS of a wet noodle).
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-09-07 17:54:12 UTC
Question,
What is the range of the Cynojamming module?
What is the duration?
What happens to ships which are in the process of jumping, do they arrive at a random location like they do if the cyno ship is destroyed?

I like your idea in general, it is simple and elegant, but need some more specific information before I can positively +1
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4 - 2012-09-07 17:55:25 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
My boyfriend and I were discussing capital ships in combat and an idea occurred to me that had been sort of fermenting in my brain for a few weeks, and well, let me just provide an example hull, and explain it a bit:

Minmatar Tactical Guidance Ship "Mjölnir"
Hull: Hurricane
High Slots: 6
Midslots: 6
Lowslots: 4

Able to fit cynojammer module
Able to fit AEGIS Sensor Suite

Role: Increase battlefield awareness and cyno-defense for a fleet

New Modules:

Cynojammer module
Highslot mod. Acts much like a HIC. Significantly slows down the ship, and it cannot warp while the module is active. Prevents ships from cynoing in, not from a cyno being lit. When a ship tries to jump in, the jump fails, and the Tactical ship gets an alert saying who was trying to jump in, generating as a list on their screen.

AEGIS Sensor Suite
Midslot mod. Basically enhances the directional scanners. Increasing their range and also giving a reading range for things offgrid.

The Tactical Guidence ship would be a moderately armoured, lightly armed fleet support vessel. Its role would be to create an information and defence umbrella for fleets to operate out of, preventing easy hotdrops for midsized fleets and forcing engagements into subcapital realms.

Thoughts?


So can I get a module I can activate on my rookieship that will prevent stargates from firing from the other side and in so doing prevent players from jumping between systems too?

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#5 - 2012-09-07 18:23:23 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:


So can I get a module I can activate on my rookieship that will prevent stargates from firing from the other side and in so doing prevent players from jumping between systems too?


no.


Quote:

Question,
What is the range of the Cynojamming module?

Systemwide
Quote:

What is the duration?

Would have to be determined in balance testing. It could be as long as an hour and use fuel or something, or as short as 2 minutes and suck cap. But balancing that our would require playtesting.
Quote:

What happens to ships which are in the process of jumping, do they arrive at a random location like they do if the cyno ship is destroyed?

It would simply abort the jump. If a cynoship is destroyed, from what I understand, it outright halts the jump of the capital.

This is a very basic pitch idea, a lot of balance testing would have to go into it. I wanted to leave the specifics vague instead of trying to figure it all out myself, since I'm not a developer (yet Blink )

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-09-07 18:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Loius Woo
Saede Riordan wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:


So can I get a module I can activate on my rookieship that will prevent stargates from firing from the other side and in so doing prevent players from jumping between systems too?


no.


Quote:

Question,
What is the range of the Cynojamming module?

Systemwide
Quote:

What is the duration?

Would have to be determined in balance testing. It could be as long as an hour and use fuel or something, or as short as 2 minutes and suck cap. But balancing that our would require playtesting.
Quote:

What happens to ships which are in the process of jumping, do they arrive at a random location like they do if the cyno ship is destroyed?

It would simply abort the jump. If a cynoship is destroyed, from what I understand, it outright halts the jump of the capital.

This is a very basic pitch idea, a lot of balance testing would have to go into it. I wanted to leave the specifics vague instead of trying to figure it all out myself, since I'm not a developer (yet Blink )


When a Cyno ship is destroyed while a ship is in process of jumping, they land in some random location in the target system.

As for your range, GTFO!

That is WAY too OP, you want a single ship that can cyno jam a whole system with a toggle able module.

I could be willing to see like a 100km range or less, but system wide is redonculous.
Danel Tosh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-09-07 18:47:07 UTC
I think a range of 100k or at most grid wide would be enough for this ship, system wide is too over powered.
kerradeph
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-09-07 19:06:03 UTC
Danel Tosh wrote:
I think a range of 100k or at most grid wide would be enough for this ship, system wide is too over powered.

yeah, systemwide is insane. and it could act somewhat like the cynojammer sov mod, where it just turns off cynos in the effected area.
also, I think it should be heavily tanked since it's holding back the reinforcements, it's likely to be called primary constantly. not anything like the proteous, but something like 150-200k EHP would be reasonable since it's also a pretty big target.
Sigras
Conglomo
#9 - 2012-09-07 19:19:09 UTC
I agree, grid wide range is best because otherwise you'd just have large alliances use 10 of these things to perma lock down a system; or what if it's sitting in a POS; thats worse than a regular cyno jammer because it cant be killed.
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#10 - 2012-09-07 19:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Saede Riordan
air enough, systemwide might be too much. How much trouble do we think it would be though, for an alliance to land ships somewhere else in system and just warp on top of a gang. It still won't stop titan bridge dickslapping. The goal is to make it useful for small gangs, but in a way that it scales poorly for permajamming a system. Perhaps the energy cost to operate it could slowly build overtime.

On the other hand, how about this then:

Stops cynos from being lit on grid, and if a cyno is lit in system, the ship gets a notification that X has lit a cyno, and also receives a notification for each ship that jumps in via cyno or gate, allowing this ship to be used as a forward warning system for ships entering the system, but wouldn't be useful in nullsec in this purpose unless you dedicated a ship to sitting somewhere running the AEGIS mod all the time, and since it can't be cloaked and can't warp while this module is active, it becomes an easy target. Perhaps the AEGIS mod could also make it easier to scan down (sig bloom?) when its running.

As for tank, I don't actually think these ships should have HIC level tanks. In fact, I think they should be fairly weak, perhaps around the level of a combat recon. Let it fit the spectrum target breaker thing CCP released in Inferno so it can keep locks off itself.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Merkal Aubauch
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#11 - 2012-09-07 20:45:37 UTC
Tbh i was thinking about similar thing.


Tho my idea was to make a Warp Disruption Field Generator script.

It would be seen same as a cyno beacon on overview and blocking remote reps coming to jamming ship.

Liquid Ozone would be consumed.

And it's not OP to block whole system cos if u really want to drop caps while you are in blob you are able to kill HIC very fast with large numbers since he has zero speed and has beacon next to him.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-09-07 21:48:14 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
air enough, systemwide might be too much. How much trouble do we think it would be though, for an alliance to land ships somewhere else in system and just warp on top of a gang. It still won't stop titan bridge dickslapping. The goal is to make it useful for small gangs, but in a way that it scales poorly for permajamming a system. Perhaps the energy cost to operate it could slowly build overtime.

On the other hand, how about this then:

Stops cynos from being lit on grid, and if a cyno is lit in system, the ship gets a notification that X has lit a cyno, and also receives a notification for each ship that jumps in via cyno or gate, allowing this ship to be used as a forward warning system for ships entering the system, but wouldn't be useful in nullsec in this purpose unless you dedicated a ship to sitting somewhere running the AEGIS mod all the time, and since it can't be cloaked and can't warp while this module is active, it becomes an easy target. Perhaps the AEGIS mod could also make it easier to scan down (sig bloom?) when its running.

As for tank, I don't actually think these ships should have HIC level tanks. In fact, I think they should be fairly weak, perhaps around the level of a combat recon. Let it fit the spectrum target breaker thing CCP released in Inferno so it can keep locks off itself.


I can agree more with this.

As for the danger of caps coming in in other places in the system, that is fine too. It gives you time to GTFO, which means the caps are risking far more jumping in if they may not be getting a fight. It also means that HOTDROPS are effectively nullified as long as you have one of these ships which seems to be the intent, without completely preventing someone from using capitals to fight back.

In larget fleets, multiple of these ships could be used, and each time a new cyno pops up, it could warp to it and light the module which would act to disperse and disorient the incoming capital fleet.

As for the AEGIS thing, (though I think the name is kinda off for your idea since AEGIS is "the Shield of Zues" and not an information system...) I am not sure about this thing...or how it should work...
Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-09-08 01:11:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jafit
I don't think that the AEGIS module is a good idea, simply because I think the entire system for intel gathering and detection in Eve needs a proper overhaul instead of adding modules to the game that rely on the random box of tricks we've aquired over the last 8 years.


  • You can't see things outside of your own grid.
  • Dscan is a joke and limited to an arbitrary ~14AU, tells you what's in a certain direction but not if it's active or moored at a POS, or if it is active who's flying it, or even how far away it is.
  • Then the local channel gives you the omniptotence of knowing who is in system and how many there are, but not what they're flying


Nobody would ever sit down and design that as the basis of detection in a multiplayer spaceship game. The only detection system that has had any thought put in to it is the revamped probing system which is great in my opinion, everything else needs a revamp too. Try going a day on these forums without someone asking CCP to remove local or change it somehow.

So I'm against the AEGIS simply because there's no point in trying to build on quicksand.

Also a system-wide cyno-jammer is already a POS module and its use is heavily restricted, requiring maximum sov level and an IHUB upgrade. A ship should be a tactical weapon, so while I'd possibly support the concept of a grid-wide mobile or deployable cynojammer, I don't support a system-wide one, because one is a strategic asset and the other is a tactical asset. It's one thing to have an enemy insert a force into your system via cyno, but being able to prevent on-grid hotdrops would still be a very powerful asset, so long as hit had drawbacks too. For example such a cynojammer should also prevent ships trying to jump out like current AoE warp interdictors, and it should prevent the lighting of the cyno like the current cynojammer does. Having it just prevent jumping and not cynos is a bit vindictive to the poor defenseless cynoship pilot.

I don't think there needs to be another T2 BC just to carry these modules either,. A sensor suite upgrade would be fine on an existing command ship, T3 or covops/recon (but there's no point without a proper sensor system to upgrade) and a cynojammer would be fine on an existing HIC.
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#14 - 2012-09-08 01:36:07 UTC
Jafit:

I rather agree that the current intelligence gathering system is borked, This thread proposes what I feel is a really good way to overhaul the sensors ingame. The AEGIS module would really be a stopgap to improve intel a bit until across the board changes could be made, which are likely at least a few years down the road unfortunately.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#15 - 2012-09-08 04:10:37 UTC
Supported for 250km range or less, system wide is overpowered. I would recommend 30s cycle time, like the HIC point. Also suggest making it have very high resistances and stiff armor/shields like CS's. As a balanced ship, I see it as a brick tank with little capability beyond jamming cyno's on grid.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#16 - 2012-09-08 04:22:30 UTC
If the cynojamming module could only prevent on-grid cynos, then it really would be more of a defensive ship used to keep your fleet from getting hotdropped. Since its usefulness would only be on-grid rather than system-wide, though, it SHOULD get a lot of eHP. Think about it: after invention and the industrial processes and the like, we're talking about a hull that will cost nearly half a billion ISK. Do you really want that to get instapopped by an arty Tornado? With only on-grid cynojamming it's hardly useful, in my mind. There's no sense in making it pretty much useless, expensive, AND fragile. The pricetag alone invalides any comparisons to a rookie ship deactivating a stargate or any such nonsense.


I personally liked the original idea best. A HIC-like BC that cynojammed the entire system. I do understand the concerns raised here, and the following changes could balance them.



  • The cynojamming module would be unable to be used while in or in-grid with a POS

  • The cynojamming module wouldn't be able to be used while cloaked

  • The cynojamming module would consume cap booster charges much like an ASB, and consume large enough charges that the ship couldn't possibly cynojam longer than ten minutes.

  • The ship's signature radius blooms incredibly while the module is active, meaning that even if it's safespotted even a very low SP prober could probe it out.


It would force the enemy to send in their sub-caps to take out the cynojam ship, which would allow the defending/guerrila force to pick off some of the enemy forces before the giant capship battle ensued (when the ship ran out of charges). Another possbile use for this ship would be to defend friendly capships from getting hot-dropped: enemy caps can't cyno in but yours can cyno out. Thoughts?
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#17 - 2012-09-08 07:59:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Saede Riordan wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:


So can I get a module I can activate on my rookieship that will prevent stargates from firing from the other side and in so doing prevent players from jumping between systems too?


no.


On that note, I'm going to -1 this idea.

OP wreaks of anti-capital sentiment in an extremely 1 sided mechanic that entrenches rifters-online even more.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#18 - 2012-09-08 15:27:48 UTC
Are you kidding me? "Rifters Online"? Have you looked at a major nullsec battle report? I hardly see a bunch of frigates. What you will see is a bunch of capships and quite a lot of battleships.

We "wreak" reek of anti-cap sentiment because yes, it is one-sided. In favor of caps. Nullsec warfare has become a matter of "who has the most caps?" rather than who can deploy a well-balanced, organized fleet of competent people.
Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-09-08 16:56:18 UTC
Shiroh Yatamii wrote:
It would force the enemy to send in their sub-caps to take out the cynojam ship, which would allow the defending/guerrila force to pick off some of the enemy forces before the giant capship battle ensued (when the ship ran out of charges). Another possbile use for this ship would be to defend friendly capships from getting hot-dropped: enemy caps can't cyno in but yours can cyno out. Thoughts?


Dreadnoughts do face the problem that if they siege in order to kill a POS, they have to have a critical mass of ships so that they can kill the tower in the space of two siege cycles (20 mins) or they're probably going to get dropped on by supers. This makes shooting structures and participating in sov warfare very hard for smaller entities.

It'd be nice to have something to provide some protection against that, an on-grid cynojammer would prevent them coming in right on top of your dreds, it wouldn't stop them coming in somewhere else and warping to your dreds, but the dreads will still be in siege so they can't leave as soon as local spikes.

I think it's too easy to have a system-wide jammer, but a grid-wide jammer might create some interesting scenarios and have some practical uses.

Plus this thing has to work in lowsec too because there are POSes and dreads that operate there which get hotdropped by supers, but caps use lowsec for midpoints and we don't want to let assholes cynojam a bunch of midpoints just because they can.
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#20 - 2012-09-08 18:05:19 UTC
I see the points about system-wide jammers being able to cut off huge chunks of space, but I feel as though it would be completely useless if it were simply an on-grid module. As you said, friendly dreads would still be in siege and wouldn't have time to get the hell out if the enemy simply it a cyno off-grid and warped to the fleet. Nevermind that "off-grid" can be anywhere between 200 to 600 kilometers away, which is a tiny distance to warp even for caps.

I definitely think this idea has some merit, but it would require some serious balancing. System-wide would be too OP (though I do think limiting the time to 5-10 minutes would make it more reasonable), but I just can't see on-grid only being worth half a billion ISK for what will likely be a single use.
12Next page